Sons of Ursolon - A Question for YOU!

[Ravenfeld]

I'm confused. What does difficulty add (on the writer's end) except workload? I've always seen the workload as the major component of the IA - simplicity of ideas and talent decreases the workload, complexity and lack of talent increases it. And, of course, you can reach a point where the workload approaches infinity.

Plus, the actual chapter isn't going to be that different. All the complication and difficulty's getting added to the history. That's a bad idea in an IA - you add a lot of difficulty without changing the end result. Even if you write this well, you've got the same chapter at the end as you would with a simpler one, and you've spent effort you could have put into making the end result more interesting.

Alright, I think what we are establishing here is that I am insane. Which could very well be true. Haha!

First, in that view, the world shouldn't still be a tribal/feudal society after 8000 years. Well, it might be one AGAIN, but it shouldn't be the same as when the Marines landed. Shouldn't really be close, even. As you say, it's a long time.

That's the thing - if things change, the world shouldn't be what it was. If things don't, the Marines shouldn't change much. This is partly a product of your massive time scale, of course.

Second, I'd be really surprised if the Imperium dedicated lots of effort to keeping Stone Age barbarians in the Stone Age. It'd seem inefficient. Better to have a nice civilized world, with lots of tithing.

I actually had intended the world the be far more savage before the marines arrival, and that over the course of the centuries their influence shifted the human tribes just as the human tribes shifted the marines. They took from each other and became a brotherhood of sorts if you will. That was the original thought anyway. I didn't think it would start out highlanderesque and just remain that way. All my arguing about change and growth over time and you think I'd leave that static?

They didn't necessarily keep the stone age barbarians in the stone age. I was intending for the world to have been undiscovered by the crusade to that point. So its like the warp spits the cruisers out onto a world that has been cut off from humanity since before the age of strife. The humans had devolved to a point of stone age status and were constantly struggling for survival against the Orks, who were the top of the food chain at the time. The arrival of the marines puts a dent into the Orks numbers allowing for the humans to live somewhat more secure lives in certain areas which spawns an evolution in culture that feeds off the marines, and over time the marines come to glean cultural insight from the humans that they have protected and mingled with for centuries, eventually culminating into the birth of the "highlander" theme years later. Again, I want the Imperium as uninvolved in the whole affair as can be.. terra is a legend just like it was on so many worlds before the Great Crusade began reunifying the cosmos.

Fair enough. Tis a pretty simple theme to get across. Lots of rocks, lots of fighting, a hint of the right names, and gloss over the kilts because that's as subtle as a brick.

I am keeping the Kilts, that was half of the modeling reason I wanted to do this in the first place! Subtlety be damned! I think you're right in terms of concept though, its not hard to make a raucous fighting group of warriors.

It's more...if they have enough information and equipment to maintain the geneseed, I feel like they'd maintain most of their other practices. Certainly I think they'd still see themselves as Space Wolves at the end, even if they no longer were. After all, they don't have the actual Space Wolves around to compare themselves with. Recontact might change that opinion for them, mind.

Really it might come down to my understanding of the gene-seed process and how it all works out. I am thinking that the survivors wouldn't have the resources to continually bolster their numbers or even maintain a set amount of Astartes at a given time. I see them as eroding over the years as the technology they salvaged originally breaks down or the techniques become shrouded and lost. I even think I will have them near extinction when they are recovered by the Imperium at large.

The major problem with the crash is the length of time you want them to survive afterwards. The Raptors crash land and survive for seven years. That's plausible. Surviving for 8000 years requires that a massive amount of equipment survive in order to either maintain the Marines or allow them to manufacture new stuff. They have to bring everything they're going to need with them.

Think about the level of equipment needed to implant geneseed. To store geneseed. To maintain power armour. To manufacture new parts for power armour. There's just so much of it...

Plus, like I said, it's a very convenient crash that leaves so many Marines and so much equipment intact while killing their Astropath.

I am going to address this one in reverse. I never said the Astropath died, I said that the warpstorms prevented travel and communication through the warp. Which, according to the fiction, is not an uncommon occurrence. I also feel that a crash of that magnitude might cause a substantial amount of damage to a portion of the planet and I would be sure to include that in the fiction.

Yeah you're right, I should probably have some sort of temporal flux that makes them lost in the warp for the majority of the time between 30k and 40k, and give them more like 1000 years or so of isolation. I think with proper maintenance that could be managed? no? I know it isn't exactly more reasonable to throw in "lost in time and space" but still.

Most ideas don't have character (this one included, IMO). Their implementation does.

I actually really like that quote. Well done.

Because your idea already has a lot of random chance. They crash in the first place. The crash leaves enough equipment surviving for 8000 years. The geneseed randomly works (which is a BIG coincidence). The Marines go native while still maintaining the knowledge of how to create Space Marines (and since they're Heresy era, they'll be using all the unstable old techniques). It's heaping coincidence on coincidence.

That's actually a point I hadn't considered - what about the bit where they're Heresy era Marines? First, they'll be using old-school geneseed techniques, which are unstable, but why wouldn't they conquer the planet and start trying to build a spaceship or something? Modern Space Wolves might be content to sit around a bit, but Heresy Space Wolves are all expansionist and disciplinedish.

So forget the stupid Helix, and the Wolves entirely. That whole genetic random chance is out the window, we move to just the random chance of the crash and the survival of enough equipment to survive. How long do you think it would take for a space marine strike force to absorb local customs, especially when you consider the mortal pool they are drawing from? After all there is plenty of precedence for the mortal recruits influencing the behavior of the astartes chapters that draw from them. In fact all of the chapters can more of less claim this distinction.

Oh, it's definitely an improvement on a single Strike Cruiser. It feels a bit more disruptive to the universe (since you're dictating the actions of more of an official chapter), but it's an improvement.

I see what you're saying, that is kind of why I need it to be Heresy era to work, any time later and the loss of hundreds of marines would set off a whole set of red flags. I can't imagine a modern chapter losing 40% of its strength would be anything but obscenely tragic and detremental. But in the Great Crusade the same number of loses is a drop in the pond on the greater scale of things. 400 of 10,000 is much less drastic than 400 of 1000.

EDIT: Damn it.

So what are you after now?

I am thinking Imperial Fists, ambushed in the warp, fired through time, spat out in the year 38, surviving on their world for 1000 years or so, and are "rescued" on the brink of extinction by the arrival of the Imperium. Still a fair amount of "random chance." Hrmm..

[Gripharius]

 

I am keeping the Kilts, that was half of the modeling reason I wanted to do this in the first place! Subtlety be damned!

 

This pretty much kills all the hard work everyone has put into trying to come up with a reasonable or sensible narrative for this Chapter.  If they're going to wear kilts, then no amount of backstory -- no matter how well thought out -- will be able to maintain even a shred of credibility.

[Ravenfeld]

 

 

I am keeping the Kilts, that was half of the modeling reason I wanted to do this in the first place! Subtlety be damned!

 

This pretty much kills all the hard work everyone has put into trying to come up with a reasonable or sensible narrative for this Chapter.  If they're going to wear kilts, then no amount of backstory -- no matter how well thought out -- will be able to maintain even a shred of credibility.

 

 

The addition of cloth over armor kills the concept completely does it? I don't see how. Thats like saying Ultramarines shouldn't have frilled helmets because that makes them Greek, or that White Scars shouldn't have moustaches, top knots and war paint, or that Dark Angels shouldn't have robes, Blood Angels shouldn't have wings or chalices, space wolves shouldn't have axes and pelts, I could go on. Every freaking chapter has some sort of item that distinguishes it as being based off a specific culture or point in history. Why would my Scottish guys having Kilts invalidate everything? That claim seems outrageous to me.

[Gripharius]

 

The addition of cloth over armor kills the concept completely does it? I don't see how. Thats like saying Ultramarines shouldn't have frilled helmets because that makes them Greek, or that White Scars shouldn't have moustaches, top knots and war paint, or that Dark Angels shouldn't have robes, Blood Angels shouldn't have wings or chalices, space wolves shouldn't have axes and pelts, I could go on. Every freaking chapter has some sort of item that distinguishes it as being based off a specific culture or point in history. Why would my Scottish guys having Kilts invalidate everything? That claim seems outrageous to me.        

 

Maybe my response was overly negative.  I'm not trying to be rude.  Perhaps I'm just disappointed in learning that something I thought would be an interesting creative exercise was not really what it seemed to be, at all.

 

I had approached this thread as an exercise in trying to develop a Space Wolves successor chapter in a way that would still fit in with established fluff and was a reasonable way of slipping past the "no Space Wolf successor Chapters" canon without destroying the whole grimdark.

 

Now it seems like its just you trying to garner acceptance for slamming several different "must have" tropes and cliches that don't necessarily go together into one IA, and also to justify kilts on your Space Marines.

 

Trying to create a backstory to justify modeling kilts on your Space Marines is one thing.

 

Creating a Heresy-era, pseudo-Space-Wolves, magically-perfected-gene-seed, crash-landed-on-Fenris-II-but-with-bear-worshipping-Highlanders, marooned-for-eleventy-thousand-years to justify modeling kilts on your Space Marines is a whole different thing entirely.

 

But that is just my personal opinion.  No offense meant. 

[Ravenfeld]

 

 

The addition of cloth over armor kills the concept completely does it? I don't see how. Thats like saying Ultramarines shouldn't have frilled helmets because that makes them Greek, or that White Scars shouldn't have moustaches, top knots and war paint, or that Dark Angels shouldn't have robes, Blood Angels shouldn't have wings or chalices, space wolves shouldn't have axes and pelts, I could go on. Every freaking chapter has some sort of item that distinguishes it as being based off a specific culture or point in history. Why would my Scottish guys having Kilts invalidate everything? That claim seems outrageous to me.

 

Maybe my response was overly negative.  I'm not trying to be rude.  Perhaps I'm just disappointed in learning that something I thought would be an interesting creative exercise was not really what it seemed to be, at all.

 

I had approached this thread as an exercise in trying to develop a Space Wolves successor chapter in a way that would still fit in with established fluff and was a reasonable way of slipping past the "no Space Wolf successor Chapters" canon without destroying the whole grimdark.

 

Now it seems like its just you trying to garner acceptance for slamming several different "must have" tropes and cliches that don't necessarily go together into one IA, and also to justify kilts on your Space Marines.

 

Trying to create a backstory to justify modeling kilts on your Space Marines is one thing.

 

Creating a Heresy-era, pseudo-Space-Wolves, magically-perfected-gene-seed, crash-landed-on-Fenris-II-but-with-bear-worshipping-Highlanders, marooned-for-eleventy-thousand-years to justify modeling kilts on your Space Marines is a whole different thing entirely.

 

But that is just my personal opinion.  No offense meant.

 

 

While I can appreciate your passion for the original goal, you were one of the people who were shutting down the concept of a space wolf founding in the first place!

 

Honestly, I want a story to create a background for my marines, I like having character imbedded in what I model. But yes, the original concept actually came around after watching the movie "Brave" with my wife. I wanted Bears, I wanted Scottsmen in a clan format not unlike the Wolves. The use of the Space Wolves was because I felt their Dex and their rule set best suited what I wanted to gain from this army. However, I think I received enough resistance to the whole idea to clearly indicate it might not be the way to go.

 

Also, you have this long protracted list that makes the whole concept seem absurd, maybe it is. However, I am more than willing to make modifications and adjustments to make it more believable so long as the end result is the same. Like not messing with the whole Canine Helix debacle and moving to using Dorn's genes instead. It wasn't what I originally wanted, but here we are.

 

"Creating a Heresy-era, pseudo-Space-Wolves, magically-perfected-gene-seed, crash-landed-on-Fenris-II-but-with-bear-worshipping-Highlanders, marooned-for-eleventy-thousand-years to justify modeling kilts on your Space Marines is a whole different thing entirely."

 

I want to break this down for my own sake.

 

Heresy-Era: This has two purposes, one to set the chapter a part from the Wolves, and two to allow me to use a plethora of MK II armor in a justified manner. Again to cater to my modeling needs, however, if you want to present an alternative I'm all ears.

 

Pseudo-Space Wolves: I feel we've covered this one in the last page and a half, the end result is it is no longer relevant unless everyone thinks we ought to continue trying to make it work?

 

Magically Perfected-Gene Seed: This was a gimmick to make the passage of time function within the realm of the wolves geneseed, again no longer pertinent given the shift away from the Canine Helix. Its amazing how much simpler things get when you avoid the seed of Russ.

 

Crash Landed on Fenris II: I don't know why it has to be Fenris II, it could be a completely different world, with different climates and people. Simply having Wolves on a planet doesn't make it Fenris.

 

Bear Worshipping Highlanders: This is the Crux of the concept, and I can make it work one way or another.

 

Marooned for eleventy thousand years: Again we've touched on this a little and I am all for alternatives, I already agreed that 8 thousand years is steep, so how about we come up with some alternatives? Eh, how does that sound? In place of bringing up old points to shore up your own argument. Just sayin.

 

Minor offense taken, but I understand where you're coming from and I respect it, begrudgingly. Hah, no its alright, I understand. I am not handling this in a way that you appreciate and it shows. Perhaps if you want a lesson on making a new founding on the space wolf gene's you should start your own topic where my ideas and desires wont interfere.

 

In the end all I want is some solid fluff for my army, that is why I want to make an IA article, I think that's why most people want to make an IA article. If somehow my wanting to have kilts on my marines makes the whole effort in vain or somehow worthless in your eyes then you may as well just move along, because you will be seeing more of it in the coming days.

 

EDIT: This is exhausting!

[Gripharius]

While I can appreciate your passion for the original goal, you were one of the people who were shutting down the concept of a space wolf founding in the first place!

Actually, I tried to take your first suggestions and then make them into a little more workable form, and I explained how I would do it if I was doing it. I added that I wouldn't actually do it because I think the no-successors rule is one of the things that makes the Space Wolves unique and I (personally) wouldn't want to detract from that.

Also, you have this long protracted list that makes the whole concept seem absurd...

Boiling the concept down to its essential pieces highlighted the absurd elements at its core, which is exactly my point. I could have used softer language, and many worthwhile concepts can be ridiculed in this manner. However, removing or toning down some of the absurd elements may make it easier to swallow some of the others.

However, I am more than willing to make modifications and adjustments to make it more believable so long as the end result is the same.

So, you're willing to change things as long as it all stays the same? So, for example... it doesn't matter if they worshipped bears first or wore kilts first as long as they ended up as bear-worshipping highlanders?

Like not messing with the whole Canine Helix debacle and moving to using Dorn's genes instead. It wasn't what I originally wanted, but here we are.

Point taken, you did see the light on that point, and the eleventy-thousand-years thing.

I want to break this down for my own sake.

Okay, I'm glad you got that off your chest. At this point, I don't really care one way or the other, I'm just messing with you. I can't take any man in a kilt seriously, even if he is 8 feet tall and wearing power armor.

EDIT: I'm going to have to start being nicer... when I get around to posting an IA of my own, I'm going to be dead meat. :LOL:

[Ravenfeld]

While I can appreciate your passion for the original goal, you were one of the people who were shutting down the concept of a space wolf founding in the first place!

Actually, I tried to take your first suggestions and then make them into a little more workable form, and I explained how I would do it if I was doing it. I added that I wouldn't actually do it because I think the no-successors rule is one of the things that makes the Space Wolves unique and I (personally) wouldn't want to detract from that.

>Also, you have this long protracted list that makes the whole concept seem absurd...

Boiling the concept down to its essential pieces highlighted the absurd elements at its core, which is exactly my point. I could have used softer language, and many worthwhile concepts can be ridiculed in this manner. However, removing or toning down some of the absurd elements may make it easier to swallow some of the others.

However, I am more than willing to make modifications and adjustments to make it more believable so long as the end result is the same.

So, you're willing to change things as long as it all stays the same? So, for example... it doesn't matter if they worshipped bears first or wore kilts first as long as they ended up as bear-worshipping highlanders?

Like not messing with the whole Canine Helix debacle and moving to using Dorn's genes instead. It wasn't what I originally wanted, but here we are.

Point taken, you did see the light on that point, and the eleventy-thousand-years thing.

I want to break this down for my own sake.

Okay, I'm glad you got that off your chest. At this point, I don't really care one way or the other, I'm just messing with you. I can't take any man in a kilt seriously, even if he is 8 feet tall and wearing power armor.

Now we're getting somewhere! Haha!

They don't even need to worship bears, actually. I want them to ride bears, and take the bear for their symbol, but it doesn't have to be a worship thing, more of a respect thing.

Notes I am willing to change: The Crash, the duration, the founding chapter (check), their origin, I mean so long as they end up as kilt wearing, bear riding scottsmen I'm all ears! Haha!

I even thought they could have been captured during the heresy by a renegade legion and have been held captive, managed to escape and THEN crash landed somewhere isolated... but the more marines we have escaping the less feasible that idea becomes... at least I am thinking haha.

As for not taking a man in a kilt seriously, well that is because of the age we live in and the perceptions of kilts in our culture to date. I think it will provide some solid opportunities to add splashes of colour to each unit, and allow me to differentiate each clan's heraldry on a unit by unit basis. Kind of like each unit will represent the sons of a particular clan, all fighting together as one force, but with each unit representing a different facet of life on the planet. So lots of splashes of various colours in the kilts, but unified colours in the armor.

You'll also be happy to know that they aren't naked from the waste down.. as I said I intend to have it over the armor! Although I may add some Imperial Levis from the world to supplement the force... scottish imperial guard, hehehe..maybe not.

[Culebras]

well, if you want a bunch of irish/scottish kilt wearing, bear riding marines, might i suggest taking a look at the storm wardens for inspiration from the Deathwatch Role playing game.  they are basically space scotts weilding giant claymores.

[Octavulg]

Hell, if you're shopping around, I've got Scottish marines.

 

No bears, though.

 

Though I'm sure one of the Stone Hearts' companies must have bought some riding beasts of some description somewhere.

[Ecritter]

Stick with the Wolves ... I've put way too much into this already.  If you don't I'll have to ... and no one wants to see that.

[Ecritter]

So, here's what I have for you so far.

 

- Sometime M30, early in Great Crusade.

- Battalion II, Chapter IV, Legion VI (name unknown) (roughly 500 Legionaries comprising 5 companies of Tactical and Heavy Support Squads)

- Before finding Russ (and before need for Accelerated Gene Culturing which caused the flaws)

- Battalion Fleet trapped in system (you name it) by a warp storm (I've found warp storms lasting 1 week, 4M, all the way up to perm); or,

- Alternately, Battalion made a short warp jump that should have taken a few days ... ending up reaching it's destination several M later (I've found that that can happen too).

- Around 500 Legionaries now ... can become a chapter.

- Has Russ' geneseed ... but are not Space Wolves.

 

How does that sound?

 

EDIT: 

 

I was gonna do a pic in the painter ... but I can't find it now :(

[Ravenfeld]

So, here's what I have for you so far.

- Sometime M30, early in Great Crusade.

I feel that it taking place during the heresy makes sense, although it could definitely be a mishap that occurred before I suppose.

- Battalion II, Chapter IV, Legion VI (name unknown) (roughly 500 Legionaries comprising 5 companies of Tactical and Heavy Support Squads)

Naturally this would also include serfs and all of the other necessities a battalion would require when traversing the void.. I like the structure, it definitely feels right.

- Before finding Russ (and before need for Accelerated Gene Culturing which caused the flaws)

If I am going to try and cover the space wolf angle I think it needs to be post Russ, otherwise I am literally just making Terran marines who have no particular defining characteristics away from the Imperial Fists or any other one of those chapters. At that point I may as well just make them Son's of Dorn (which is an idea that is growing on me) and call it a day. Otherwise we're back to the challenge of tackling the Canine Helix. The cursed founding is an option, chance gene pools is another, any other thoughts?

- Battalion Fleet trapped in system (you name it) by a warp storm (I've found warp storms lasting 1 week, 4M, all the way up to perm); or,

So they simply get trapped in transit and are forced to settle down? That would definitely explain the intact equipment and supplies. Such a simple solution to a needlessly complicated problem. Well done.

- Alternately, Battalion made a short warp jump that should have taken a few days ... ending up reaching it's destination several M later (I've found that that can happen too).

This is also possible, could even have a combination of the two, a jump that took them centuries from their launch point and being forced into and trapped in a system where they are forced to land and fortify / colonize in order to survive.

- Around 500 Legionaries now ... can become a chapter.

I think that is a safe starting point for a chapter, half strength.

- Has Russ' geneseed ... but are not Space Wolves.

Again this to me is pointless, why have Russ' genes without all the flavor that comes with it. If we are going the Wolf route it has to be all or nothing in my mind. We find a way to work with the flaws or we just go with Dorn. Some of the others made very good arguments towards this end.

How does that sound?

I like the majority of what you've got. Some of the solutions are so obvious but excellent when applied to the situation. Really cuts down on the random chance element I was so hung up on.

EDIT:

I was gonna do a pic in the painter ... but I can't find it now

I think their armor will be brown with golden yellow edging. Bright yellow power weapons / lenses me thinks.. not 100% sure yet though.

[Messor]

I think you can have post Russ, and still avoid the Canis Helix. The Space Wolves legion wasn't immediately and violently afflicted the moment he was found. Heck, it could have been years, there's not much lore context to restrict you. I would also argue that Russ and Fenris are as much a part of that flavor as the genes.

[Gripharius]

Must... not... comment....

[Ravenfeld]

Must... not... comment....

 

Oh what? You're gunna hold yer tongue with a moderator but not with anyone else eh? I see how it is.

[Gripharius]

 

Oh what? You're gunna hold yer tongue with a moderator but not with anyone else eh? I see how it is.

 

I'm trying (and failing) to hold my tongue with the whole thread.

[Messor]

Oops. I was missing three pretty key characters in that post. Hope your minds fixed that for you before I did.

[Octavulg]

Why a pre-heresy crash landing? New chapter crash-landing could end up with the same thing (and avoids the messy issue of working out what would happen when the guys were rediscovered).

 

EDIT: I still think you should do Cursed Founding Space Wolves. Werebears are fun. That's a fact.

[Ravenfeld]

Why a pre-heresy crash landing? New chapter crash-landing could end up with the same thing (and avoids the messy issue of working out what would happen when the guys were rediscovered).

 

EDIT: I still think you should do Cursed Founding Space Wolves. Werebears are fun. That's a fact.

 

I am down with this if you can explain to me why they are almost exclusively wearing Mk II Crusade Armor and I will jump on board.

[Octavulg]

Mk II Armor?

 

If you just go normal chapter: Second Founding Ultramarines successor. The Ultramarines precipitous expansion in the Scouring required them to use lots of old armor for this particular chapter, and they stick with it out of pride and superstition.

 

If you go Cursed Founding...the Cursed Founding does have noted equipment shortages. They could have been outfitted with old stock for some reason. Them going around looking for caches of Heresy-era equipment feels kind of bearlike. Hell, maybe they just manufacture the stuff themselves for some obscure reason.

[Ecritter]

Ravenfeld, even before finding Russ ... the marines would have his genes (they were created from them).  So, they'd still have all the Space Wolves (non-Wulfen) look and feel.  Alternately, it could be after finding Russ ... those Legionaires were still made on Terra, but before the need for the Accelerated Gene Culturing ... which from what I have read lead to the gene flaws for the Space Wolves and others.

 

A Battalion was 500 Legionaires and has several Strike Cruisers and all thier support craft and crew ... so 10s of thousands of people.

 

All the Legions wore grey armor before finding the Primarchs from what I've seen.

 

EDIT:

 

If you don't do this ... I will.

[Messor]

Haha, something about that ultimatum. Though I agree, this idea can't be discarded now, one way or another.

[Ravenfeld]

Haha you can't take the ideas because regardless of what route I take i'll still be using 90% of what we've come up with!!

 

Naturally you're just referring specifically to the Space Wolf successor aspect right? I love being torn in multiple directions!

[Ecritter]

Haha you can't take the ideas because regardless of what route I take i'll still be using 90% of what we've come up with!!

 

Naturally you're just referring specifically to the Space Wolf successor aspect right? I love being torn in multiple directions!

I'd be specifically going with 500 Legionaires of the VI Legion if I did it (as I suggested).  Its interesting and very doable.

[Ravenfeld]

I'd be specifically going with 500 Legionaires of the VI Legion if I did it (as I suggested).  Its interesting and very doable.

Forgive me Critter, could you create a compiled list of all of the things your aiming to have me do so I can get a better scope of what you're looking for? I'm at work so I can scour the whole post! Haha.