Space Scotts!

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, I am back with a new set of questions.

 

After mulling over my situation with the bear cavalry I've decided to
attack the issue from a different angle (one not requiring the cavalry
as a center piece).

** For those who are unfamiliar, I wanted to originally make a list with Thunderbear Cavalry, but as I play at a local GW and GW produces no bear kits I was forced away from this idea. No point in spending time and money on a unit I won't be able to field, at least not in the near future.

So I challenge you, brothers, to give me insight to the following:

 

I want this force to lack energy weapons of any kind, due to their
back story. So I need lots of hard ammunition weaponry, keep that in
mind with any ideas you may have.

 

Blood Claws - I like the idea of using my "cubs" as a beat stick.
Especially when given Saga of the Hunter and outflanking the enemy. Two
units of this might be great.

Long Fangs - I am thinking of having one of these with Heavy Bolters / Missile Launchers also outflanking the enemy.

 

Preds vs. Fangs - I am torn, I love the idea of having three units of
Heavy Bolter / Missile Launcher Fangs in the army, especially supported
by Dakka-Backs, but at the same time I like the idea of actually
fitting some Predators in (as I rarely use tanks). The question becomes
which will be more effective at dealing with the problems a no-energy
weapons list will come to face.

 

Rifleman Dreads - Offer me some anti-vehicle / air for a reasonable
price tag. Also filling a slot that isn't too contested at the moment,
unlike heavy support.

 

Any thoughts on how to make a list with these elements in
mind? (I know, talk about a shift in concept... from a logan wing to a
bullet list. I am really wanting to make an army of kilt wearing mark II
crusade armor marines.)

 

Insight please!

Thank you,

Raven

[Howland Greywolfe]

Well in truth you can only have one character outflank with a unit (unless you have bran redmaw, then you can have 2 and one unit of grey hunters outflank)

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Bran Redmaw sound like a good option for what you want and he fits the bill, just call him something else. The canis helix does all sorts of craziness. Rifleman dreds are ok vs flyers, but most flyers are good at taking down those dreds.

 

Prescience does wonders for blood claw damage output, but I dont know if a force weapon breaks your rule.

 

Preds are good vs mobile armies like Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, but long fangs are just so awesome. I love those old guys. But my favorite heavy support is the Vindicator. It just kills everything and scares the bajesus out of your enemy. Any non flyer beware.

 

As to your bear problem, how about an Iron Priest on a suped up Thunderwolf that is huge and bear like. That would work well with rifle dreds and preds.

[Russ Brother 92]

Aye now I MUST suggest, coerce and reccomend that you make up a unit of Wolf Guard as the Black Watch (42nd Regiment of Foot - now part of the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

[Ravenfeld]

Well in truth you can only have one character outflank with a unit (unless you have bran redmaw, then you can have 2 and one unit of grey hunters outflank)

 

Why is this, only one saga per army right? Where can I find rules on Bran Redmaw?

 

 

Bran Redmaw sound like a good option for what you want and he fits the bill, just call him something else. The canis helix does all sorts of craziness. Rifleman dreds are ok vs flyers, but most flyers are good at taking down those dreds.

 

Prescience does wonders for blood claw damage output, but I dont know if a force weapon breaks your rule.

 

Preds are good vs mobile armies like Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels, but long fangs are just so awesome. I love those old guys. But my favorite heavy support is the Vindicator. It just kills everything and scares the bajesus out of your enemy. Any non flyer beware.

 

As to your bear problem, how about an Iron Priest on a suped up Thunderwolf that is huge and bear like. That would work well with rifle dreds and preds.

 

Fair point on the fliers destroying the Dreads, I intend to probably have at least one quad gun to help with Aircraft though, the Dreads will be behind it to take out light vehicles and fliers as needed.

 

Prescience eh...that's some food for thought. Do you find that Blood claws work best in full sized units, or in smaller units with transports or what? I find it slightly ridiculous that they are the same cost as Grey Hunters, but here we are.

 

Predators would fill a niche that none of my other armies really do, and that's having a vehicle fire base. That being said I really perceive this army as being very much infantry based so I don't know how I want to go about this just yet.

 

My original list had a plethora of bear cavalry, but the store won't allow Non-GW models and so that concept has to be laid to rest for now. I will likely still model and paint up the cavalry as a centerpiece for a display with these guys, but for actual table top game-play I am avoiding it for now.

 

 

Aye now I MUST suggest, coerce and recommend that you make up a unit of Wolf Guard as the Black Watch (42nd Regiment of Foot - now part of the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

 

Explain to me what makes these fellows so special in your minds eye and I might just do it! I note that their Kilts are a combination of blue and green (very alpha legion, actually) and aside from small snippets I can't glean whats so special about them over all. So please enlighten me!

 

Thanks All,

Raven.

[DanPesci]

For me,having blood claws outflank isnt a great idea, as it means they cant charge the turn they come on. With BC, you need that charge to take advantage of their +2 attacks, otherwise there is no point taking them over grey hunters, who will get the same number of attacks per numbers when charged themselves.

 

A grey hunter unit outflanking also gets the benefit of being able to come on, and rapid fire with their bolters and have more scope for special weapons. 2xPlasma for outflanking near heavy infantry, 2xMelta for outlanking near vehicles etc.

 

If you are taking them though, then deffo run them in big packs rather than small, again, cos of the way theyre setup, for me, you have to run them in large numbers to negate their poorer WS/BS - and almost always take a wolf priest (or highland druid) to give them some re-rolls.

 

Likign the idea for scottish themed though, as a Yorkshireman whose lived in scotland for over 6 years, my loyalites are tied, but should give you some interesting scrop for themed painting :D

[Reichfaust]

Really disappointed to hear that your GW isn't playing ball, Ravenfield, 'cause those Scibor war-bears look amazing. 

 

Anyway, here's my take;

 

Sagas & the Redmaw--You can take multiple Sagas per army, but you can only take each Saga once. Bran Redmaw's rules are in Imperial Armour 11.

 

Blood Claws--Used 'em once, never again. If they were slightly cheaper than a Grey Hunter then maybe, maybe I could see the point in them but honestly they just cannot hold a candle to the flexibility offered by Hunters.

 

Think about this--if they don't get to charge, then literally the only benefit they have over a GH pack is moot. And in this age of random charges and hull points, there is no certainty of getting the charge off at all! Even if you spent the points to mount them in a Land Raider, all it would take is 4 glances, or a poor charge roll, and you're outta luck. Whereas if a GH pack gets charged, they can test for Counter-attack, activate their Wolf Standard to re-roll 1s on everything, and Overwatch with rapid-fire boltguns (re-rolling 1s!)--and don't even get me started on BS4 vs BS3, dual special weapons at 10 vs 15, the CC multiplier that is Mark of the Wulfen etc etc... Now consider that for the price of 2 full squads of Blood Claws you could get 3 full squads of Grey Hunters. It's not even a contest in my book. If you really want to use Blood Claws, just take the equivalent value of Grey Hunters and use them the same way, you won't be disappointed.

 

Preds vs Long Fangs--They can both be great. 3 dakka-preds will run you 255 pts, which costs the same as two Long Fang squads with 9 missile launchers between them. Obviously Long Fangs have the advantage against heavier vehicles, and the frag missiles will do well against hordes; but then the Preds will do very well against weaker vehicles and medium infantry, especially anyone with a 4+ save. I see merit in both approaches to your Heavy Support. I would also echo ghostwolfalpha's thoughts on Vindicators--they are truly a magnificent tank, easily my personal favourite in the entire Marine arsenal. I have started running a trio of them and they are phenomenal (and as a bonus they fit with your chapter's aversion to energy weapons!).

 

Rifleman Dreads--Another very reliable choice for anti-armour, especially if you've filled your Heavy slots with Vindicators! Autocannons do struggle once you hit AV12, however. 

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Aye now I MUST suggest, coerce and reccomend that you make up a unit of Wolf Guard as the Black Watch (42nd Regiment of Foot - now part of the Royal Regiment of Scotland).

Sure, but only if you make sure all the commanders are English ;-)

[Ravenfeld]

For me,having blood claws outflank isnt a great idea, as it means they cant charge the turn they come on. With BC, you need that charge to take advantage of their +2 attacks, otherwise there is no point taking them over grey hunters, who will get the same number of attacks per numbers when charged themselves.

A grey hunter unit outflanking also gets the benefit of being able to come on, and rapid fire with their bolters and have more scope for special weapons. 2xPlasma for outflanking near heavy infantry, 2xMelta for outlanking near vehicles etc.

If you are taking them though, then deffo run them in big packs rather than small, again, cos of the way theyre setup, for me, you have to run them in large numbers to negate their poorer WS/BS - and almost always take a wolf priest (or highland druid) to give them some re-rolls.

Yeah, the whole concept of using Blood Claws came up before I opened my Dex and actually looked at their entry. I mean the same cost for essentially one additional attack "on the charge" at the deficit of a ws/bs seems ridiculous to me. Simply having the option to get up to 15 models doesn't mitigate the glaring weaknesses. However, with a Bear Druid (hehehe) I might still field a single unit.

Likign the idea for scottish themed though, as a Yorkshireman whose lived in scotland for over 6 years, my loyalites are tied, but should give you some interesting scrop for themed painting

I just really wanted to have a chapter that presented some unique painting opportunities and I think Tartans will add nice splashes of colour throughout the force. Of course I need to really practice my precision painting before I step up to that challenge!

Really disappointed to hear that your GW isn't playing ball, Ravenfield, 'cause those Scibor war-bears look amazing.

Anyway, here's my take;

I was really disappointed as well. If GW had some bear models it would be understandable, but they are literally c**k blocking my concept on the grounds of not wanting to advertise competitors, even though 95% of the force would be GW product in one form or another. Real bummer.

Sagas & the Redmaw--You can take multiple Sagas per army, but you can only take each Saga once. Bran Redmaw's rules are in Imperial Armour 11.

Right, if I elect to go with a Cursed Founding Werebear concept I might want to make use of him, just to have a huge lumbering bear beast running around wrecking up the place. I think Grimnar also offers some solid choices for the list as well, he is bearlike!

Blood Claws--Used 'em once, never again. If they were slightly cheaper than a Grey Hunter then maybe, maybe I could see the point in them but honestly they just cannot hold a candle to the flexibility offered by Hunters.

This is my sentiment, my jaw literally dropped when I opened my Dex and looked at their prices. Grey Hunters, arguably the most solid troop choice in terms of cost and options in the game (in my opinion), or a unreliable melee unit that is worse at being a melee unit if they don't get the charge... but hey you can get more of them at a premium. It is really silly.

Think about this--if they don't get to charge, then literally the only benefit they have over a GH pack is moot. And in this age of random charges and hull points, there is no certainty of getting the charge off at all! Even if you spent the points to mount them in a Land Raider, all it would take is 4 glances, or a poor charge roll, and you're outta luck. Whereas if a GH pack gets charged, they can test for Counter-attack, activate their Wolf Standard to re-roll 1s on everything, and Overwatch with rapid-fire boltguns (re-rolling 1s!)--and don't even get me started on BS4 vs BS3, dual special weapons at 10 vs 15, the CC multiplier that is Mark of the Wulfen etc etc... Now consider that for the price of 2 full squads of Blood Claws you could get 3 full squads of Grey Hunters. It's not even a contest in my book. If you really want to use Blood Claws, just take the equivalent value of Grey Hunters and use them the same way, you won't be disappointed.

I only wanted Blood Claws to represent my guys "cubs" all rounded up and unleashed on the enemy under the watchful gaze of a "druid." However, it might not be worth it at this point, seems too unreliable and your arguments make a lot of sense.

Preds vs Long Fangs--They can both be great. 3 dakka-preds will run you 255 pts, which costs the same as two Long Fang squads with 9 missile launchers between them. Obviously Long Fangs have the advantage against heavier vehicles, and the frag missiles will do well against hordes; but then the Preds will do very well against weaker vehicles and medium infantry, especially anyone with a 4+ save. I see merit in both approaches to your Heavy Support. I would also echo ghostwolfalpha's thoughts on Vindicators--they are truly a magnificent tank, easily my personal favourite in the entire Marine arsenal. I have started running a trio of them and they are phenomenal (and as a bonus they fit with your chapter's aversion to energy weapons!).

Honestly I'm torn, I want Long Fangs for the modelling and I want tanks for.. tanks. Vindicators are swell, but are they better than old men and predators? They are very common at my local meta (in our 1k tournie my Iron Hand Sternguard destroyed 3 in 3 turns! Stupid vindicators..) but I wouldn't want to cheese them anyway.. thats a tough call. I really like the idea of outflanking heavy bolter long fangs.. maybe that and two vindicators? Save the Preds for a different army?

Rifleman Dreads--Another very reliable choice for anti-armour, especially if you've filled your Heavy slots with Vindicators! Autocannons do struggle once you hit AV12, however.

My thought is that they could add some potential anti-air as well if they're in the back with the Aegis. They can pop transports and the (Vindicators at this point) roll forward and keep the heat off the Dreads. Of course two Riflemen would take two elite slots, what other elite options do you guys feel would fit this theme solidly? Wolf Guard are an obvious choice, as whats more bearlike than clawed terminators?

[Russ Brother 92]

Ahh my dear fellow - The Black Watch are just about the most famous (besides perhaps the Scots Guards) Military Regiment to come out of Scotland, put in perspective they're one of the oldest (prior to amalgamation into part of the Royal Regiment of Scotland) Regiments certainly in the forces of Great Britain, they have fellow Black Watch Regiments/Battalions in Canada and kindred in many other countries (The New Zealand Scottish - NZ, Transvaal Scottish Regiment - South Africa and The Royal Queensland Regiment - Australia) - quite frankly if you're going for a Scottish Themed force you can only get more renowned by going for the Scots Guards or perhaps the 1st Regiment of Foot - formerly the Royal Scots, later the Royal Scots Borderers and now 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland (and the oldest Regiment of Foot).

As fer DanPesci - I know the feeling in a sense, me old man was Duke of Wellington's Own (3 Yorks)...

and Staying OT - I like the idea of two (perhaps Venerable) Rifleman Dreads, okay anti-air, decent anti-infantry and brilliant against light vehicles - one unit of Wolf Guard would sufficiently provide the extra hit you may need - in the form of Terminator Armour, Chainfists, Power Fists and Heavy Weaponry (Cyclones and ACs).

[Reichfaust]

I can see where you're coming from with the idea of having the cubs of your chapter getting stuck into the most ferocious fighting. I have two thoughts regarding this; firstly, could you not just use Grey Hunters to represent the novice brothers of the chapter? They do still have the same Ld value as Blood Claws, and you could attach a more senior brother in the form of a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Preferably in TDA!) to act as their Sergeant and mentor.

 

Secondly, if you're really set on taking Blood Claws to represent them, I will throw my hat in the ring for taking Swiftclaw Bikers. Now like the Blood Claws they are problematic in that they offer no discount to "standard" Bikers (Bikers in the Vanilla dex also costing 25pts a pop), while retaining the WS/BS penalties and Headstrong special rule. However the speed of the bike means they are more likely to get into combat when they want to, and the twin-linked bolters on the bike partially alleviate their BS woes and make up for the lack of a Boltgun as standard wargear that a Blood Claw has to deal with. Add the other inherrent benefits of bikes to the mix (T5, Hammer of Wrath, cover saves everywhere), throw in a WG Pack Leader and/or HQ option, and you've got yourself a swift and brutal beatstick.

 

I can't blame you for wanting to take Long Fangs or Predators. If you really want to avoid being labelled cheesy, I would advocate taking Dakkapreds. A lot of people I know hate seeing 3 Vindicators on my side of the table for all the same reasons I love them, and we all know how many Space Wolf lists are likely to have 15 Missile Launchers sitting in their backfield. Dakkapreds are fun, cheap, and (somewhat) effective at what they do. Really wish they had a twin-linked Autocannon at the very least, but I digress...

 

Outflanking Long Fangs? I dunno. What would you put them with? A Wolf Priest I'm guessing, for the Preferred Enemy buff? Re-rolling all those 1s is pretty cool, but even barebones that's paying 110 points to come in from the side, fire some snapshots, then get mauled in the opponents turn. If you REALLY want to get your Long Fangs into the enemy's flank, why not take a Drop Pod as their dedicated transport? The difference in price between that and a Wolf Priest could almost buy you another Dakkapred.

[Ravenfeld]

Ahh my dear fellow - The Black Watch are just about the most famous (besides perhaps the Scots Guards) Military Regiment to come out of Scotland, put in perspective they're one of the oldest (prior to amalgamation into part of the Royal Regiment of Scotland) Regiments certainly in the forces of Great Britain, they have fellow Black Watch Regiments/Battalions in Canada and kindred in many other countries (The New Zealand Scottish - NZ, Transvaal Scottish Regiment - South Africa and The Royal Queensland Regiment - Australia) - quite frankly if you're going for a Scottish Themed force you can only get more renowned by going for the Scots Guards or perhaps the 1st Regiment of Foot - formerly the Royal Scots, later the Royal Scots Borderers and now 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland (and the oldest Regiment of Foot).

 

Alright that gives me a brief history, but what did they do to be labelled as bad-ass aside from being ancient? What did they do specifically to earn your respect?

 

and Staying OT - I like the idea of two (perhaps Venerable) Rifleman Dreads, okay anti-air, decent anti-infantry and brilliant against light vehicles - one unit of Wolf Guard would sufficiently provide the extra hit you may need - in the form of Terminator Armour, Chainfists, Power Fists and Heavy Weaponry (Cyclones and ACs).

 

I think I agree, Wolf Scouts don't really fit as bears aren't particularily sneaky, lone wolves could work... but why? Iron Priests..again why? So that leaves Dreads and Wolf Guard, two Dreads makes more sense for target saturation, although two units of Wolf Guard in TDA would be something as well... I agree with Pfists / Chainfists / Claws being the way to go. I think I might do dual assault cannons, I know Cyclones are "better" but I like the idea of two miniguns opening up on an enemy.

 

I can see where you're coming from with the idea of having the cubs of your chapter getting stuck into the most ferocious fighting. I have two thoughts regarding this; firstly, could you not just use Grey Hunters to represent the novice brothers of the chapter? They do still have the same Ld value as Blood Claws, and you could attach a more senior brother in the form of a Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Preferably in TDA!) to act as their Sergeant and mentor.

 

I suppose I could use Grey Hunters in this role, yes. That would work, but it kind of solidifies my wanting to have more Wolf Guard..

 

Secondly, if you're really set on taking Blood Claws to represent them, I will throw my hat in the ring for taking Swiftclaw Bikers. Now like the Blood Claws they are problematic in that they offer no discount to "standard" Bikers (Bikers in the Vanilla dex also costing 25pts a pop), while retaining the WS/BS penalties and Headstrong special rule. However the speed of the bike means they are more likely to get into combat when they want to, and the twin-linked bolters on the bike partially alleviate their BS woes and make up for the lack of a Boltgun as standard wargear that a Blood Claw has to deal with. Add the other inherrent benefits of bikes to the mix (T5, Hammer of Wrath, cover saves everywhere), throw in a WG Pack Leader and/or HQ option, and you've got yourself a swift and brutal beatstick.

 

Bikes are definitely not bearlike.. tanks, yes, dreadnoughts, yes, bikes, not so much, same with assault marines & land speeders.. in fact fast attack on the whole might be a little out there.. haha. The only thing that would fit is Bear Cavalry... stupid GW..

 

I can't blame you for wanting to take Long Fangs or Predators. If you really want to avoid being labelled cheesy, I would advocate taking Dakkapreds. A lot of people I know hate seeing 3 Vindicators on my side of the table for all the same reasons I love them, and we all know how many Space Wolf lists are likely to have 15 Missile Launchers sitting in their backfield. Dakkapreds are fun, cheap, and (somewhat) effective at what they do. Really wish they had a twin-linked Autocannon at the very least, but I digress...

 

Yeah I know Vindicators are reviled, by me included. I would likely be using my Long Fangs with x3 Heavy Bolters / x2 Missile Launchers to avoid the missile spam. Dakkapreds, however, are cheap as chips and I think that two or three of them would put out some serious volume. Its just a tough call because none of my other forces have predators, but on the same token Mk II armor with the heresy era heavy bolters and kilts seems to good to not do at least once!

 

Outflanking Long Fangs? I dunno. What would you put them with? A Wolf Priest I'm guessing, for the Preferred Enemy buff? Re-rolling all those 1s is pretty cool, but even barebones that's paying 110 points to come in from the side, fire some snapshots, then get mauled in the opponents turn. If you REALLY want to get your Long Fangs into the enemy's flank, why not take a Drop Pod as their dedicated transport? The difference in price between that and a Wolf Priest could almost buy you another Dakkapred

 

I didn't realize that it would only be snap shots on the outflank, so forget that. Drop Pods are out of the question as my Iron Hands have 7 pods already.. and a couple of dread pods.

 

Thanks for the insight guys!

Raven

[Reichfaust]

Ah, I see--You want Bearlike. Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

I suppose I could use Grey Hunters in this role, yes. That would work, but it kind of solidifies my wanting to have more Wolf Guard..

What's the problem with that? I'd recommend taking one 10-man squad of Terminator Wolf Guard, and splitting a few off to act as Pack Leaders. A 10-man footslogging GH squad lead by a TDA Wolf Guard is fantastic, I have been taking no less than 3 such squads recently. I can either use the Terminator as a sacrificial lamb, sticking him in front to soak up wounds with his 2+ armour, give him a matching Combi-weapon to up the squad's damage output or even go balls to the wall and invest in a Cyclone ML or Assault Cannon to really make the unit into a fearsome beast--especially if they're outflanking!

What are your thoughts on Land Raiders? Land Raiders are kind of bear-like, and if you do end up taking a lot of CC-oriented Terminators, it could be a good way to get them into combat. A Crusader would probably be your best bet for avoiding energy weapons.

[Ravenfeld]

What's the problem with that? I'd recommend taking one 10-man squad of Terminator Wolf Guard, and splitting a few off to act as Pack Leaders. A 10-man footslogging GH squad lead by a TDA Wolf Guard is fantastic, I have been taking no less than 3 such squads recently. I can either use the Terminator as a sacrificial lamb, sticking him in front to soak up wounds with his 2+ armour, give him a matching Combi-weapon to up the squad's damage output or even go balls to the wall and invest in a Cyclone ML or Assault Cannon to really make the unit into a fearsome beast--especially if they're outflanking!

What are your thoughts on Land Raiders? Land Raiders are kind of bear-like, and if you do end up taking a lot of CC-oriented Terminators, it could be a good way to get them into combat. A Crusader would probably be your best bet for avoiding energy weapons.

There is no problem with that save that it challenges my desire to have double dreads! I am glad you mention foot slogging because I definitely want some units to be doing just that. Assault Cannon outflanking eh? I do like the sound of that. Even with a 2+ Armour Save don't you find your one wound wolf guard getting torn to shreds more often than not?

I don't mind Land Raiders at all, in fact my original idea was going to have two of them before I moved to the TWC theme, now I seem to be reverse engineering back to that point again! In short, I love the idea.

[Russ Brother 92]

Regarding my own respect for The Black Watch aside from the age - a tad is family pride (a few generations back my great grandfather was Black Watch - although that could be said for a fair few regiments in the British Forces from regular infantry, artillery and others where my family is concerned) - the majority is the Battle Honours they've recieved - 15 Victoria Cross recipients (much as it is a double edged sword) and Regimental Battle Honours in nearly every noted military conflict since the 'Golden Era of the Empire' so mid-late 1800's...

Regarding Land Raiders I prefer the flamey-death of Redeemers (I like fire) :D plus they get better capacity than a Godhammer (Lascannon) and the benefit of AP3 flamers that ignore cover - personally I prefer that to lots of bolters...

[Reichfaust]

Regarding Land Raiders I prefer the flamey-death of Redeemers (I like fire) plus they get better capacity than a Godhammer (Lascannon) and the benefit of AP3 flamers that ignore cover - personally I prefer that to lots of bolters...

I used to sound just like you, haha. My problem with Redeemers is that it's just too hard to get them into range. I have a pair of LRRs myself, and in all the years I have owned them I've had maybe one game where they actually got to burn some unlucky mdoels--it was just the other day, actually; My opponent was an all-bikes list, and I took a pair of them one exploded with a single pen (damn multi-melta bikes), where-as the other one actually got into range with both flamestorm cannons. It was pretty brutal--all those jinks and cover saves don't mean much to a storm of S6 AP3 fire! So... it's a gamble. When it works, it can work REALLY well. When it doesn't, your 240pt investment ends either dying immediately or never quite getting close enough to fire off a full volley. Fingers crossed for "torrent" special rule on Flamestorm Cannons come 6th edition dex :D

Anyway, the Crusader alleviates this somewhat seeing as 24"/12" range is a little more forgiving than than template range. Granted it will never have the raw MEQ-killing potential of the Redeemer, but a LRC at 12" can force a lot of saves.

What's the problem with that? I'd recommend taking one 10-man squad of Terminator Wolf Guard, and splitting a few off to act as Pack Leaders. A 10-man footslogging GH squad lead by a TDA Wolf Guard is fantastic, I have been taking no less than 3 such squads recently. I can either use the Terminator as a sacrificial lamb, sticking him in front to soak up wounds with his 2+ armour, give him a matching Combi-weapon to up the squad's damage output or even go balls to the wall and invest in a Cyclone ML or Assault Cannon to really make the unit into a fearsome beast--especially if they're outflanking!

What are your thoughts on Land Raiders? Land Raiders are kind of bear-like, and if you do end up taking a lot of CC-oriented Terminators, it could be a good way to get them into combat. A Crusader would probably be your best bet for avoiding energy weapons.

There is no problem with that save that it challenges my desire to have double dreads! I am glad you mention foot slogging because I definitely want some units to be doing just that. Assault Cannon outflanking eh? I do like the sound of that. Even with a 2+ Armour Save don't you find your one wound wolf guard getting torn to shreds more often than not?

I don't mind Land Raiders at all, in fact my original idea was going to have two of them before I moved to the TWC theme, now I seem to be reverse engineering back to that point again! In short, I love the idea.

Well as I said, putting your Wolf Guard in that role is definitely making him a sacrificial lamb--He will probably die sooner or later. Obviously I wouldn't recommend putting any extra equipment on a TDA in this role, unless you're feeling exceptionally bold! (I'll make an exception for some dirt-cheap comi-weapons, tho)

Anyway, I think a full squad of of 10 Wolf Guard in TDA could potentially do everything you need them to do (splitting 3-4 off as pack leaders, leaving you with 6-7 as a dedicated CQC unit), while still leaving you with 2 open slots for dreadnoughts. Any more than one squad of Terminators and you're getting really pricey (although on a side note, you could make an argument that with the new 6th ed power weapon variations, 330pts for 10 Terminators with their choice of power weapons is actually pretty versatile for how much you pay for 'em). Obviously a LRC would be the perfect transport for such a squad, too.

If you like dreadnoughts so much, have you considered Bjorn as an HQ? I mean, his name literally means Bear in english, and some would argue 6th edition has made him better, not worse, thanks to the benefits he gets from challenges, precision shots etc, and re-rolling the dice to see who goes first means you get a higher chance to dictate the flow of the battle. Granted he is very expensive, but I have had a lot of fun with him using him as my Warlord in larger games (my enemies will rue the day I roll "outflank" as a trait for him.)

[Rift Blade]

I agree with Reichfaust. A pack of WGTDA equiped with power swords & power axes is a better deal then it looks. And Bjorn is really better deal in 6th then 5th. Precision shots on a Dreadnaught scares people. I have used him twice & both times after getting a precision shot with Bjorn, my opponent tried harder to kill him, leaving a couple of packs to get on with their job & win both games. Bjorn even survived the last game due to his Ward save. You still have to be careful, but he does work better in 6th IMO.

[Ravenfeld]

Oh I love Bjorn too, of course I am using him as HQ for my Iron Hands so that won't be happening! In fact I would honestly rather not have Dreads at all, its just I need some long ranged fire power and they can bring it as riflemen.

 

I would likely use the Crusader just because its hard ammo, fire is great but it is secondary to bullets in terms of theme.

[Reichfaust]

Oh, you went with the SW codex for Iron Hands? Interesting. I have really been getting keen on Iron Hands recently--their look, their fluff, etc--but I always figured I'd use the Blood Angels codex if I were going to model some. I mean compared to the Space Wolves codex, BA Techmarines can take full servo-harnesses, Sanguinary Priests in TDA can count as Iron Fathers and give their squad FNP, AV13 dreadnoughts that don't cost 270pts, etc.

[Ravenfeld]

Oh, you went with the SW codex for Iron Hands? Interesting. I have really been getting keen on Iron Hands recently--their look, their fluff, etc--but I always figured I'd use the Blood Angels codex if I were going to model some. I mean compared to the Space Wolves codex, BA Techmarines can take full servo-harnesses, Sanguinary Priests in TDA can count as Iron Fathers and give their squad FNP, AV13 dreadnoughts that don't cost 270pts, etc.

 

But in Codex SW Wolf Guard can join squads while in TDA & you get a Dreadnaught HQ. I use SW as my allied detachment though, I run vanilla marines as my primary force. I also think Counter-Attack makes more sense than Red Thirst and assault marines as troop choices is almost the opposite of the IH mentality in my mind. Its the machine like advance, not the fast moving precision strike. For me there is too many inconsistencies that the BA dex provides to really line it up with the fluff.

 

SW - Counter Attack works, Acute Senses can simply represent occular bionic implants. Just don't take Mark of the Wulfen and you're golden really. Just my opinion. If you wanna talk Iron Hands throw me a PM!

[Ravenfeld]

Question for you fellows, am I right when I assume Logan is best used with Long Fangs? Say I wanted to field three units of Long Fangs, would the  High King be worth taking? Any tips or tricks would be great!

 

Thanks.

[Blacksad]

the logan - arjac - multi-melta long fangs podding basket is fun, but as you can imagine, it carries a lot of eggs.

[Ravenfeld]

I'm tempter to pile on my HQ as:

 

Logan

Bran

Rune Priest

Wolf Priest

 

Really damn pricey though, for a 2k point list, haha.