Chaos Marine Squad equipment

[minionboy]

So I've been working more and more on my Red Corsairs, but I keep having a hard time making generic Chaos Marine's work!

 

I was wondering, if people here have found it worth while running squads of more than 10 Chaos Marines.  Similarly, I was wondering what people experiences were with various equipment set ups for them, such as Bolter vs. CCW vs Bolter+CCW...

 

Currently, I've been running 2x10 with double plasmas in a rhino with havoc launcher, though I'm trying to make an army that potentially would have 30-40 undivided marines in it.  So any feedback on how various equipment set ups for CSM squads have worked for you would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers.

[Agent Purple]

So I've been working more and more on my Red Corsairs, but I keep having a hard time making generic Chaos Marine's work!

 

That's because generic CSM's don't work. Aside from maybe BT crusader squads, they are the worst MEQ troop in the game.

 

Generic CSM lose point for point vs. loyalist equivalents, so its best to minimize points invested in them.  Bolters and either double plasma/autocannon is probably the best set up. It might also be worth it go get LD9/10 with VOTLW, since falling back with them really sucks.

 

CC is not where you want to be unless you have a fearless HQ and maybe the vengeance banner, since one bad combat can kill your entire unit.

 

If you start buying upgrades on 40 csm's they are going to form a large portion of your army very quickly. I guarantee you that your army core of CSMs will get sodomized hard by SW/DA with an equivalent core of troops.

 

Maybe if you ran deamon core and used cheap heralds to buff large CSM squads that might work better. Endurance / prescience on a 20 man bolter blob might not be terrible.

 

I generally field mostly undivided marines in my BL army because I like undivided from a fluff perspective. I can tell you from experience that they don't really perform as well as you'd expect based on their price tag and you just have to eat it. No ATSKNF sucks, I generally wind up with one squad failing a morale and being crippled for a turn per game, which is substantial. Change to rhino rules where shake/stunned means snapshot only on your unit when it disembarks also sucks. No heavy weapon in 5 man unit (like DA and likely SM) combined with no combat squads means you are forced to play mid/short range shooty (double specials) to make your squads at least 'pretend' like they are efficient.  You want rhino to get into position faster, but rhino is east KP and can give up firstblood easy costing you the game. Also if rhino is shaken/stunned you lose most of the advantage of being upfield earlier since you are stuck with snap shot.  On the otherhand, no rhino = really alternative lifestylesque games if you roll hammer & anvil deployment.

 

If you buy bolter+bp/ccw, you are like crappier, more expensive grey hunters. Makes you better in CC vs vanilla tacticals, but you still suffer from the potential to just die if you have one unlucky cc round. Once you buy special weapons, your guys are really expensive.

 

bp/ccw makes you crappier BA assault marines (no jetpacks, fast transport), champ is crippled in assault thanks to champions of chaos (can't refuse challenge for a turn until he can be bailed by another character). Assault is generally not where you want to be anyways due to being sweepable and not really good enough at CC to expect to win most matchups. Also, no effective delivery system.

 

That leaves bolter.

 

You can buff them, but aside form having large units, CSM don't have any real benefits in this area compared to loyalists, and need to use allies to get precience (most consistent buff).  Loyalists don't need to rely on chance to get good buffs since they have div, selectable good buff spells (SoS, stormcaller, null zone, force dome), or good buff wargear/characters (blood chalice, standard of devastation, pedro, sanguinor, inner circle etc..)

 

If you are massing generic troops, buffs are a huge boon. I guess allying in at least one herald to get the buff spells is a good idea.

 

Chaos needs fearless IC (lord) to babysit units and prevent the cowardly CSMs from breaking and dying. This competes directly with our buff character slots. Not good.

 

Ergo, if you want to play this style of army effectively, you picked the wrong blowdex. Sorry bout your luck. I know not all of us want to play min/max plagues with drake/spawn to be effective, but kelly disagrees.  Accordingly, if you insist on playing generic CSM, play for kicks and try not to worry to hard about making them work - it's an unwinnable fight against loyalist mirror armies.

[Vesper]

Noise marines are also way better IMO. Fearless, I5, can be quite deadly in shooting if you want them to.

I ever prefer NM to PM.

[minionboy]

Noise marines are also way better IMO. Fearless, I5, can be quite deadly in shooting if you want them to.

I ever prefer NM to PM.

 

Sure, and I totally agree, I have 20 of each cult troop for a reason.  :P

 

My main goal is to figure out a way, any way, that generic marines can be useful, instead of the usual defeatist attitude expressed by other players.  No ATSKNF sucks, but you still get a 13 point bolter marine, and until you're in combat ATSKNF isn't really an issue.  The Icon of Vengeance is a fairly weak solution, and puts a squad of 10 with 2 plasmas and fearless up to 195 points, which is 15 points more than a similarly equipped Dark Angels squad, 25 if they don't upgrade the sergeant. :(

 

So what other options are there to get Fearless?  You guys already mentioned getting Chaos Lords to baby sit your units, though that's pretty annoying in itself, since every one you take is a sorcerer that you're missing...

 

One idea I just had was Fabius Bile. For 165 points, he can dole out fearless to 2 units, his own unit since he is fearless, plus a unit of Enhanced Marines.  So that's something to consider.

[Agent Purple]

Still only 2 units.

 

Barebones with VOTLW and 2 specials, maybe a combi on the sarge is really as good as its going to get unfortunately. LD 10 isn't terrible as long as you avoid having to eat negative modifiers from combat losses (i.e. shoot and try only to engage in CC when you are sure you will win). 25 pts for fearless banner isn't worth it.  Having to burn an HQ choice that would rather be on a steed/bike or a buff caster to babysit a CSM unit is a hard pill to swallow and in all honesty, probably not worth it.

 

The unit isn't completely unuseable, but it's not a particularly great buy comparatively either. You could take a few units to get scoring bodies on the ground, but you're going to want something else to do the killing and make the army work (like tridrake or something).

 

You could go MSU with combiplas/plas/rhino with combi or havoc to I guess, but again, its a lot of easy KP's and first blood.  Or take large units and try to maximize the benefits of whatever buffs you have lying around, but this would also work with a large unit of KB's or something, which has base fearless.

 

13 pts for a bolter isn't that hot, considering DA get all their SM gamut for 14 pts, bolter included. It is again likely that vanilla SM will be around the same. Since our units have madatory champeens, 140pts gets you 10 CSM bolters, but it also will get you 10 vanilla bolters.

 

The issue with CSM is that they are never really appreciably cheaper than their loyalist counterpart, but come with substantial drawbacks comparatively. They're a mediocre unit and there isn't really anything to be done about it. There isn't a magic bullet win setup that puts them up on par for efficiency with loyalist troops.  If you want to use them, you kind of need to accept this and try and make back the loss in efficiency by picking up better units in other slots. Trying to base your entire army (and I'm not sure if you're trying to) on mass undivided marines as your army's go-to tool for getting things done is not going to end well.

 

Fabulous Billy might make a unit fearless, but he's kind of meh as a lord choice (other ability wise). Not sure if he's worth the investment (points and slot).  Once you buy a lord, you might as well use his 'master of' rule and pick up PMs or NMs as troops. Again, his buff is more efficient with a large hordey type squad.  You could try bile & 2x 20 man CSM squads as an ally to chaos deamons, and use their cheap buff heralds to make them more deathstary, i guess, but this dosen't seem to fit your army theme well.

[minigun762]

I've discovered that thinking of CSMs as Chaos tacticals is better than thinking of them as Chaos grey hunters.

 

They are no longer flexible jack of all trade units, but they still bring a pair of special weapons and some bolters to the party.

 

LD9 is typically good enough for a shooting squad but I'd splurge on the VotLW to help stay on the board longer. Keeping them out of assault will help mitigate the lack ATSKNF.

 

Speaking of assault, don't fall for the extra CCW. Its actually cheaper to give the champion a power weapon than give the squad the extra weapon and chances are that power weapon will do more.

 

Lastly, I take the meltabomb to keep enemy armor and MCs honest.

[the jeske]

hm so you play hvy weapon/plasma set ups ?

[Sception]

All this "don't take close combat weapons" talk is depressing to me.  Not wrong, no, just really depressing.

[Brother Ambroz]

I splurge on my troops and they haven't disappointed me so far. I run mine with Rhinos and some mech guard allies. I've got a decent amount of armor saturation though but it's worked decently so far.

[Noctus Cornix]

I run my Chaos Marines squads basically the same way almost every single game.

 

10 man squad with VoLW, additional close combat weapon, two plasmaguns, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, and give the champion gift of mutation with a single lightning claw and meltabombs (been considering adding a combi-plasma but I'll need to do some testing) in a rhino with a havoc launcher.

 

Now this runs upwards to about 320 points. Don't have my codex on me so I can't give you an exact amount. Yes its fairly expensive but these boys never fail me. They do fairly well in shooting and I've never had a problem with them being assaulted. They're tough, fast, and efficient and I can generally run through enemy squads. Just played a game recently against Blood Angels and was assaulted by a squad of assault Marines. Only killed one with overwatch but that was to be expected and was nice enough seeing as they had FnP. Needless to say, my Champion was challenged by his Sergeant and tore through the guy before he got his attacks while his boys took care of three other Marines before they got their hits. Round two comes around and my champion runs the Sanguinary Priest through his claws (with his fancy new 2+ armour save from mechanoid) just like the Sergeant and we finished up the squad round 3. Got Masochism for killing the sanguinary priest which was somewhat irritating but it turned out to be fine seeing as the icon bearer took a bullet to the head from a sniper scout.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that there is nothing 'not viable' about these guys. Time and again these guys prove their worth and I couldn't be happier with them.

 

Just my two positive cents.

 

(P.S. I have no idea what you're talking about Purple, Crusader Squads deathstars are amazing)

[the jeske]

GH squad totem 2 plasma hidden power ax and motw costs less.

[minigun762]

hm so you play hvy weapon/plasma set ups ?

Me? No, paired specials. Usually a 1:1:1 mix of plasma:melta:flamer squads.

[Ammonius]

@noctus cornix:

What is the overall points value for the army with that Slaanesh squad?

 

On topic: Lately, I have been getting 1500 point games, and I run 2 squads of CSM. One squad is a backfield objective holder and is a barebones 10-man squad with 2 plasma guns. The other is a 10-man squad with VotLW, extra CCW, a powersword for the champ, and a rhino. The second squad is my "free safety" and stays back in cover for 1-3 turns to react to deep strikers/ outflankers before going for an objective, or gets in position to support my Spawn or jump into a fight to help my Lord+PM's.

 

Generally, if my CSM's get caught out in the open they are dead (I see a lot of IG, DE, and some Tau), so I try to play them as safely as I can.

[Noctus Cornix]

@Jeske: by how much less? I'm not familiar with their codex and I haven't played my Space Wolf opponents enough but My Chaos Marines tend to work on par with them so I have no problems with being a bit more expensive, especially since I strike first and have feel no pain.

 

@Ammonius: I play generally around 1500, 1750 games. Decent size battles without hitting the double FoC mark.

 

But like Ammonius said, back on topic: I've seen blob squads of chaos Marines before in a foot slogging chaos swarm army. It was mainly just a giant Khorne mass of cultists and chaos Marines backed up by a group of Baledrakes. Surprisingly enough, it worked fairly well. Still lost but he gave the grey knights a run for their money. Its not the smartest thing in the world but they were able to take down about 80% of his force. If it weren't for the spamming of orbital bombardments with lucky rolls, I think chaos might have won. The only way I can really see Chaos blobs working is if you do like he did and build your entire army around it. Ya it may not be the most viable but it sure looks cool. :P

[Agent Purple]

They're not a bit more expensive, they're retardedly more expensive.  The squad jeske mentioned is only 200 points, 235 with rhino, which is almost 100 points cheaper than your non-ATSKNF slaneeshi squad, based on your 320 estimate. 

 

The build you describe is 278 points with no transport, 325 with havoc rhino, if my math is right. 

 

At this point, it would like to note that a full loaded (combi) sternguard squad in droppod is 335.  You could also get a decent sized squad of combi-toting terminators for that cost.

 

You could get almost 2 full DA tactical squads on foot for that price, after buying weapons.

 

Fully loaded GK strike squad with psybolts is also much cheaper than your slanneshi squad.

 

After banner, MOS, and VOTLW, your base model cost is 19 points - you could almost get the much better bikers at this cost...

 

Maybe your marines can work on par with SW or other loyalists, but you are doing so at +30% the cost they pay....

 

Crusaders good? 16 points for no grenade marine, plus they have to pay for weapons.  The only thing good about them is that they can still 5 man las/plas.

 

They're not even that good at melee if they don't get the charge of their their rage rule. at 17 points each after buying frags, they are considerably less scary than 19 point zerkers, which have counter attack WS5, and furious charge.  No double specials either. Sorry, these guys are bad.

[Brother Ambroz]

That squad Noctus mentioned would likely tear apart a sternguard squad as long as they got the charge. If they didn't, then it'd be more difficult to judge.

 

Comparing much of anything in our codex (with the exception of hellturkies) to C:GK isn't really going to work.

 

They're not amazing for the points cost, sure, but they aren't horrible. I've got a squad very similar to the one Noctus runs and they regularly take down termie squads and slaughter loyalist MEQ squads. They're not really a competitive choice, sure but they aren't bad for fun/fluffy games.

[the jeske]

its SW and the comperation is [sadly] easy. both units are or at least can be ultra grit[sW kind of a for free] , both can have icons[and the SW one is so good that it will always be taken] , then we come in to the grey area of ax vs MoTW faction [which imo is academical because both options are great] as we dont realy have an anwser to a hidden power weapon/rending weapon. SW have marks[it gives them counter attack and ATKNF] , we can take marks too. Again I hate to do this because we went over this so many times, but GH cost a lot less then our dudes .when we start taking 2+squads they are gettin one extra over us . and that is more plasma , more power weapons, more bodies , more bolters for the same points. Now am not saying that i5 is bad [even if it works only in hth, save for that 1 time being hit by jaws] , it just costs too much .

[minigun762]

Noise Marines do have a chance of coming out as more effective than their points might show because they're geared so well to killing other MEQs and can do a lot of damage quickly thanks to doom sirens or blastmasters and I5 helps keep them alive when fighting other MEQs,.

[Trevak Dal]

Noise marines are also way better IMO. Fearless, I5, can be quite deadly in shooting if you want them to.

I ever prefer NM to PM.

If I had to play a Cult Marine army and couldn't run beserkers, I'd go with Noise Marines or Thousand Sons over Plague Marines.

 

GH squad totem 2 plasma hidden power ax and motw costs less.

Yeah, yeah, Loyalists are better at all things, just like Mal says, "I may have been on the losing side, doesn't mean I wasn't one the right one,"

[Noctus Cornix]

Ok, fine Grey Hunters are better. I conceed to that frivolous So what? It doesn't make our Marines any less viable.They're still better than standard Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels. Yes they're more expensive but you have to invest to get something useful out of our codex.

[Vesper]

But if you spend that points into Noise Marines or PM, you end up with something that :

- Has an edge over other MEQ

- Doesn't have leadership issues

- Has synergy with some of our spells

- Doesn't cost that much

[the jeske]

Ok, fine Grey Hunters are better. I conceed to that frivolous So what?

It doesn't make our Marines any less viable.They're still better than

standard Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels. Yes they're more

expensive but you have to invest to get something useful out of our

codex.

BAs maybe , if razor builds were more viable they would be just as good. But SM ? they have some awesome synergies with other units [specials , drops pods , combat tactics] and DA are 3xthat. dakka baner , possible minimax , great synergy with IG , cheap as potatos . we can get 1 unit of dudes with 2 plasma for 170 pts , they can get 2 las minimax for a bit more .

 

the rest is as vesper said . if cult units were only elite and there were no BL armies possible , then using csm would make more sense . Which is sad by the way , because now that we have  the tau dex in our hands , going slogger hvy is our only option to play.

[derpasaurus]

I run 10 strong with 2 plas and power weapon/plasma pistol on my champs. They always have MoS and nearly always VotLW. The rhinos typically only have warpflame gargoyles. My troops run around 300, but they melt so much face. I've apparently built up my threat list such that my rhinos are no longer priority targets. I have a dread, dakkafiend, vindicator, baledrake, and usually either raptors/chosen I also run with, so my CSMs can usually scoot around in a rhino and plasma the crap out of stuff for a couple turns at least relatively unmolested. Once I close or if a termie squad or something deepstrike I unload and rapid fire the crap out of it, then I assault the next turn. Even if I'm assaulted I almost always go first, if not simo. the power weapon is worthless against termies usually, but I WRECK meqs just by nature of going before everything. 
The most trouble I have these days is, honestly, my friend has discovered the "joy" of fielding azreal with giant guard blobs, and/or a librarian with prescience and forewarning. Sucks.

[Dar'kir]

I run 10 man w/ 2 spec weapons(either plasma or flamer), Champ w/ pw and combi-weapon, and a rhino bare bones. Having just got back into the game recently, its worked well for me thus far. I tend to take 2 or three squads, try keeping interlocking fields of fire, usually backed up by a vindicator or two. I plan to swap those for forge fiends once i get the models.

[Nehekhare]

I use the models to run something else.