A Few Chaos Questions

[reckoning]

Hail Traitors!

 

I normally do not venture in this neck of the forum but I have a question that I feel may best be answered here. Minor caveat: I know very little about the Chaos legions, or Chaos itself other than its bad and must be destroyed.

 

I recently got the itch to model a Chaos Lord and needed a few details sorted out:

 

1. Can an Astartes (chaos type obviously), with or without the blessing of any of the Chaos Gods, stand a chance against a demon in solo combat? This particular Astartes walked alongside Primarchs and has risen to the rank of Lord.

2. Can demons be infused within armor and weapons? Im pretty sure they can but this is a two part question. If they can, how is it done? If it is done with armor, can Astartes battle plate function on the power of the demon alone or does it still require the power source (backpack)?

3. Is is believable to have a Chaos Lord who challenges demons to singular combat and wins?

4. Who would be a good legion for all of this? Im leaning towards Word Bearers, but am open to any of the legions except IW (son of Dorn and all).

 

Please excuse my ignorance. I look forward to enlightenment.

[henrywalker]

1. Depends on the demon, bloodletter yes, bloodthirster (big one) tough, 95% impossible

 

2. yes daemon weapons exist. i think basically stronger daemons or a powerful sorceror do it. you could certainly say that the daemon powers the armour. 

 

3. again depends on the daemon. force weapons can kill daemons pretty well. its a bit unbelievable if he kills dozens of bloodthirsters but if hes good and lucky he could manage one. very lucky

 

4. im not sure, do you want the most daemonic legion or do you want a legion that shuns daemons and hence fights them, generaly they work on the same team. 

[Hellios]

But but but... Many IWs have Dorn's geneseed :D

[Pariah Mk.231]

For information about daemons being bound into weapons, the Inquisitor rulebook gives some nice details. As for armour, Kroeger from Storm of Iron wears such a suit, but I don't recall if there is any mention of it requiring the regular power source or not. In regards to someone going around and kicking the snot out of daemons for funsies, sounds like you're looking at making a Chaos version of Draigo, and that is something I would stay as far away from as possible.

 

Now, as for legions ... my Iron Warrior brothers spit on your Primarch's memory ... but aside from that, for a character that likes decorating his parlour with trophies taken from all the daemons he's stomped in his career, World Eaters is the most believable way to go. A Khorne lord certainly seems the most likely to best daemons in a toe-to-toe fight (from a fluff perspective, he'll probably get munched in-game).

[Shuggnuggath]

Sounds like something a champion of the Emperors Children would get up to.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Sounds like something a champion of the Emperors Children would get up to.

Nah, he'd be too busy trying to seduce them and get them high.

[reckoning]

Thanks all for the swift replies.

 

My chief concern is making it believable (no chaos version of Draigo). No greater demons, like the Bloodthirster or GUO, but certainly a few lesser ones if they provide a challenge.

 

Another question: How is one turned into a demon prince? And would one be considerably angry for not being granted demon princehood?

[Warsmith Aznable]

The progression is something like this:

 

A marine is a tough guy for a while, does some impressively manly stuff. Then the Chaos Gods notice him, and he gets claimed by one of them with a Mark. He travels further down the path of that god, possibly becoming a cult trooper, or maybe just becoming an Aspiring Champion. He feels the power of that god surge within him, and at this point things like mutations might begin to happen, little gifts from the god who marked him. If he's still pleasing the god who marked him, he becomes a Champion. Depending on his situation and personal ambition, he can parlay this into being a Chaos Lord, leading a warband and making a name for himself in the galaxy.

 

At any point during all of this the mutations and daemonic energy building inside of him may overcome his willpower, and he gets turned into a Chaos Spawn.

 

Champions/Chaos Lords who have served their god by doing something particularly spectacular may reach ascension. Sacrifice an entire world of billions? Defeat a specially irritating of the god who marked him? Turn in all the proofs of purchase from 8 boxes of Khorne Flakes?

 

Who knows when it comes to the fickle gods?

 

But eventually a powerful and ambitious Champion/Chaos Lord gets ascended. But "ascension" is basically becoming a part of the chaos god itself. You have shown such a commitment to the ideals and goals of the god that it rewards you by basically absorbing you. To get angry at not being turned into a prince would indicate that you're just not ready to be one because you don't fully comprehend that it's a complete dedication to the will of the god. A candidate who gets passed over for Daemon Prince is either still building potential, or is about to get a pink slip in the form of being turned into a Chaos Spawn.

 

That's how I understand it.

[chillin]

1- depends on type of deamon, daemon foot solder sure, lots of them, but I assume you mean a DP or GD. To kill one of those he would have to be a very powerful and acheint lord and have the favor of another GD or DP or a god itself. he would also definately need a daemon weapon.

2- daemons can power armor, weapons and war mach's. As to how to get them in there, sorc's, rituals, binding spells, etc, etc, etc.

3- as I said b4, would have to be one hell of a lord. He would be very lucky to survive a fight like that once, more then once...no way , even abby wouldnt go around challenging DP's and certainly not GD's on a regular basis.

4- Best army (not a legion) for that would be son's of malice, mayal worshipers.

[Brother Ambroz]

Have to agree with the two posters above. Taking out a GD or DP is nigh impossible for a normal chaos lord but he could get very lucky. Taking out the daemon Heralds of the gods though, that is far far more believable I think. Could easily see a World Eater challenging all the daemons to fight him as Khorne doesn't care from where the blood flows. I could also see a Son of Malice doing this because the chaos god Malice/Malal hates everyone, but that's not a legion. Another scenario I think would be Night Lords or Alpha Legion. Just my two kraks though.

[Lootzer]

It depends on what U call a Chaos Lord. The ones we have now in our Dex are far from being "Lords" in their stats. Some people here share the same opinion as me - those are merely Aspiring Champions of Chaos. Check out WFB Chaos Lords stats to see the difference.
I think in the Realm of Chaos book were some quotes relating to Chaos Lords being able to put GD  down with bare hands/tentacles.

[Brother Ambroz]

Fantasy lords have always been more powerful than their 40k counterparts (with the possible exception during 3.5). Although CSM in general have almost always been weaker than the way their fluff has portrayed them.

 

Only great "heroes" of the Imperium are able to take out a GD with a great deal of luck. Only exception to this is GK....because well you know.

[zyl-]

I think a Tzeentch build lord would probably have the best of chances due to high invuln save. A few good chaos boons could really improve your chances, too.. but the best you can field with is a random one from Gift of Mutation.

[totgeboren]

Game-wise, a Lord with an LC, fist, MoT and sigil, (I have one of these with a jump pack) plus getting Eternal Warrior or Instant Death on close combat attacks from the Boon table would stand a fairly ok chance of killing a Bloodthirster. An uphill struggle definitely, but not at all impossible.

 

Background-wise, a Greater Daemon is a deadly challenge for a Primarch, meaning it is almost impossible for a marine to best such a creature.

 

Middle-size daemons like Beasts, Juggernauts and Fiends is a challange a SM hero should probably win, and a Herald is to a marine what a GD is to a Primarch. Or almost, maybe a bit less deadly.

[Hellios]

I would also like to say that not all Greater Daemons are the same. While none of them would be easy to defeat, the most favored would be  terrible foes to face.

[Iron Sage]

The progression is something like this:

 

A marine is a tough guy for a while, does some impressively manly stuff. Then the Chaos Gods notice him, and he gets claimed by one of them with a Mark. He travels further down the path of that god, possibly becoming a cult trooper, or maybe just becoming an Aspiring Champion. He feels the power of that god surge within him, and at this point things like mutations might begin to happen, little gifts from the god who marked him. If he's still pleasing the god who marked him, he becomes a Champion. Depending on his situation and personal ambition, he can parlay this into being a Chaos Lord, leading a warband and making a name for himself in the galaxy.

 

At any point during all of this the mutations and daemonic energy building inside of him may overcome his willpower, and he gets turned into a Chaos Spawn.

 

Champions/Chaos Lords who have served their god by doing something particularly spectacular may reach ascension. Sacrifice an entire world of billions? Defeat a specially irritating of the god who marked him? Turn in all the proofs of purchase from 8 boxes of Khorne Flakes?

 

Who knows when it comes to the fickle gods?

 

But eventually a powerful and ambitious Champion/Chaos Lord gets ascended. But "ascension" is basically becoming a part of the chaos god itself. You have shown such a commitment to the ideals and goals of the god that it rewards you by basically absorbing you. To get angry at not being turned into a prince would indicate that you're just not ready to be one because you don't fully comprehend that it's a complete dedication to the will of the god. A candidate who gets passed over for Daemon Prince is either still building potential, or is about to get a pink slip in the form of being turned into a Chaos Spawn.

 

That's how I understand it.

Which is fine, but I would like to add (my apologies, as this is not criticism, I merely want to add information here) that in the actual warhammer 40K (including fantasy) fluff, one can be touched by warp enteties and the warp itself, not necesarilly one of the Big Four. There are uncounted Daemon Princes in the galaxy, and very many of those have mortal worshippers, and a very, very unclear lineage (lineage as to its not at all clear if that daemon is an aspect of the big 4 or not). Some Daemons are very powerful indeed, and some of those are not of the better known four aspects.

 

In short, in the galaxy, there are a myriad warp gods, small, medium and vastly powerful.

[reckoning]

Thank you all. Just to reiterate, Im not going to portray him besting GD like its his hobby. Lesser demons and some 'mid' demons is what Im looking towards. And I did want to stick with a founding legion, but the Sons of Malice sound cool too.

[Xenith]

As has been said above, Chaos Lords in the codex are....unrepresentative of what they should be.

 

Archaon, a normal human, beat a Bloodthirster in single combat.

 

I badass chaos lord should be more than capable.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Archaon, a normal human, beat a Bloodthirster in single combat.

 

I don't think Archaon can exactly be called a "normal human". Sure, he's not augmented like a Space Marine, but he's the Fantasy equivalent of Abaddon, with all the favour and abilities that come with it.

[chillin]

I was about to say same thing. How is Archaon a normal human, he's the FB equivalent of abby, favored of the chaos gods, "bringer of the end time",  and all of that.

[Brother Ambroz]

I think he's referring to the fact he has only one heart, no black carapace, a concrete wall thing for a chest, etc. Still though they're different universes. You can't really compare one to the other.