Void Wraiths

[Octavulg]

i am not going explain everything to you. much of your questions are already answered in previous posts. i found 3 important points to clarify in my writing, so thank you for those. but otherwise you have a deep misunderstanding of many things with the chapter. if i were type a full response to this, it would be several pages long. quite frankly i dont have time for that. many of the other posters can help clarify things for you.

Congratulations. You have convinced me that you need something obvious explained to you.

 

1) I have read the previous posts, yet I ask these questions. Your answers are deficient. Furthermore, since ideas change over time, the answers to those questions may not be the same as when they were originally asked, so it is not inappropriate to ask them again.

 

2) If I am misunderstanding your writing, and others are misunderstanding your writing, maybe your problem is the writing. At minimum, you should be trying to explain the points of misunderstanding so you can get advice on how to clear up those misunderstandings.

 

3) Everyone has things to do. You are not special and unique in that regard. Where you do appear to be unique is in thinking that people spending their time in helping you is doing them a favor. It is not. People do not have to help you. If people take the time to provide you with advice, you do not have to accept it. You do not have to act on it. But you have no right whatsoever to tell people that you're too busy to explain yourself to them, because that is treating them as if their time is less valuable than yours. It isn't.

 

Explaining yourself is the entire process of developing a DIY chapter. Otherwise it's just you showing off, and you don't need us for that. Nor is anyone likely to volunteer to be part of it. Pick which you want to do, and act accordingly.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

first off, i take great offense from much of what of you have just written. others have understood my points fairly well so far.  i have been described as an above average writer by many teachers and professors of various subjects, so no many writing skills are not the problem.  did i mention i have things to do? no, because as you said, everyone does.  i just refuse to waste time explaining things to someone, when the explanations are already present.  you want to take this further? then pm me or make a thread, id be happy to "discuss" with you.  otherwise, please get do not clutter my thread.  i do not normally take things personally, but when you question something that is just fine and is personal aspect, that choice is taken from me.

Edited April 8, 2013 by The Lord Marshal

[Demus Ragnok]

Marshal on a personal note, I must say you come across as a very sensitive person. You have made a point earlier in this thread about others replying "respectfully" to your material. Respect only goes so far. You seem to react negatively when people question what you have written.

 

I will say again what I said in an earlier post, If you want this to mesh with universe that "most" of the people here accept as "canon" you will need to do alot of work. Now if you don't care about the opinions of the others here, well I guess thats okay too. But I think you should consider the demands you make of others when you respond to them in a setting like this.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Demus i understand your point.  i appreciate your efforts to both provide criticism and defuse negative situations.  i do care about the opinions of other people, thats why i asked for advise from the community.  I welcome their opinions.  but i do also believe that there is no excuse for disrespect or out right insults for no reason.  that may make me seem sensitive, but im just sticking to the belief in the previous sentence.

Edited April 8, 2013 by The Lord Marshal

[Octavulg]

i have been described as an above average writer by many teachers and professors of various subjects, so no many writing skills are not the problem.

[Emphasis added]

 

But if that's the game we're playing now: I was reading at a university level in middle school. I scored in the 98th percentile on the LSAT, which is 25% reading comprehension. I took the prize in Evidence in my year, and made the Dean's list.

 

I do not think my lack of reading comprehension is as close to a certainty as you seem to.

 

But since my reading comprehension is lacking, I must have missed the insults in my own post. Please point to them.

i just refuse to waste time explaining things to someone, when the explanations are already present.

As I told you, I have read your explanations. In some cases I find them lacking. In others, I think they are ill-conceived, and suspect they are not necessary to achieve your overall goals. I have asked questions to try to address both these issues.

 

You have refused to answer them because 'you've already answered those questions.' I have assured you twice now that I've read those answers.

 

So. You could try explaining yourself more fully, and see if just maybe my five IAs and 30,000+ word guide on writing IAs might mean I have some experience at this and could contribute something. Or you could continue to insist that the problem is that I can't read and am insufficiently respectful to you, the man who has refused to answer my questions because he is too busy. Up to you.

 

In either case, I would suggest to you that the truly respectful continue to offer respect even when they do not receive it.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Octavulg

[Raven Angel]

Octavulg did you miss the part where he asked you to take this to PM and stop putting this in the thread? Don't make the MODERATI get involved in this. If you really need to argue with Lord Marshal take it off the tread.

[Gripharius]

Additionally, i see i need to clarify where the Chapter has gotten much of its non-sm-exclusive naval ships. i think i will have to reveal more about the Chapter origins sooner than planned. Perhaps i can conceal it to some degree through hints instead of blatant info. My plan is basically to withhold the true origins and geneseed of the Chapter until the time is right. The problem is how to hint at it without revealing too much or bringing down the Inquisitorial hammer on me.

 

To Octavulg and Ecritter: I think the above explains a lot about the perspective and the purposes of this thread's author and why he is doing what he is doing. If you can read this and see where he is coming from, I think you can understand why your questions and comments are receiving the response that they are.

 

I don't mean this to be a criticism of anything, I just think The Lord Marshal is coming at the Liber from a different perspective and with different purposes than the average Liberite.

 

 

EDIT: I apologize, I miss the part about not cluttering up this thread. I apologize and I'm out of here. :)

Edited April 9, 2013 by Gripharius

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

 

Additionally, i see i need to clarify where the Chapter has gotten much of its non-sm-exclusive naval ships. i think i will have to reveal more about the Chapter origins sooner than planned. Perhaps i can conceal it to some degree through hints instead of blatant info. My plan is basically to withhold the true origins and geneseed of the Chapter until the time is right. The problem is how to hint at it without revealing too much or bringing down the Inquisitorial hammer on me.

To Octavulg and Ecritter: I think the above explains a lot about the perspective and the purposes of this thread's author and why he is doing what he is doing. If you can read this and see where he is coming from, I think you can understand why your questions and comments are receiving the response that they are.

 

I don't mean this to be a criticism of anything, I just think The Lord Marshal is coming at the Liber from a different perspective and with different purposes than the average Liberite.

 

 

EDIT: I apologize, I miss the part about not cluttering up this thread. I apologize and I'm out of here.

 

actually gripharius, considering the fact that is exactly what i was talking about, your example is appreciated and not clutter.  however, that said, i believe this issue does not need anymore discussion as all the points have been made.  and yes if Oct still feels the need to continue, he can, as asked, pm me.  

 

anyway, id like to get the thread commentary back to feedback/updates.  i know i said i would clarify the source of war material today, but i did some other things and just didnt get to it.  but that will be my next addition.

Edited April 9, 2013 by The Lord Marshal

[Brother Tyler]

We keep getting "reports" about insults and what-not in this topic, so this topic is going to go into time out so that everyone can cool off, figure out what this topic is all about, figure out what role everyone has, and how this topic might continue in a more constructive, peaceful, and, insofar as the author desires, collaborative vein if/when it is re-opened.

[Brother Tyler]

This topic will be re-opened either tomorrow or Saturday. In the meantime, please refresh your understanding of our expectations for everyone's participation in the DIY discussion process as seen here.

[Brother Tyler]

This topic is once again open for discussion. Assuming everyone has read the guidance I linked above, we should be able to move forward in a constructive manner (even if we can't all agree on things).

[NightrawenII]

Ugh, how come everytime I leave you guys without supervision, you pull out something incredibly ludicrous. It *mildly* disturbs me that it happened just few days after my lecture of Gripharius in other tread. Anyway.

 

Point

of order Astartes do use battleships and any other warship class they

want. They normally "convert" them to battle barges and strike cruisers

but they there is no standard pattern that all chapters follow.

Logical fallacy.

If you convert Oberon class battleship into Battle Barge, then it's not Oberon class Battleship anymore and it's silly to adress it as such. The reason why the SM convert these ships is because they are limited to own ships for "support of planetary invasions", which means any dedicated ship-to-ship weaponry, eg. like Lance battery, is forbidden. There are exceptions and ways around this embargo, but it's ilegal and shabby regardless.

I don't mean this to be a criticism of anything, I just think The Lord Marshal is coming at the Liber from a different perspective and with different purposes than the average Liberite.

While this is fairly good observation, it's hardly a exclusive case.

Looong time ago someone said "if every chapter was shrouded in mystery, we couldn't see in the Liber" - which eloquently tells you how popular the "Shrouded in Mystery" Chapters are... a lot.

Thus, the Liber IS sceptical and suspicious when it comes to such attempts, thanks to long and proven tradition.

 

Secondly, I don't quite understand why are people so hell bent on dumbfounding their readers. This is neither detective novel nor psychological thriller, but a article whose raison d'etre is provide and present a information. Refusing to yield information is, to put it charitably, counterintuitive.

 

Right now, I agree with Octavulg, your intentions with this Chapter are rather unfathomable which makes any serious attempts to provide feedback pointless.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

Edited April 12, 2013 by NightrawenII

[Antarius]

I think it would be a good idea to look at why you're not telling us everything, at the very least.

 

I mean the "without bringing the hammer of the inquisition down" thingamajig is basically an in-universe thing. It makes perfect sense that the chapter would wish for some things to remain hidden to the universe at large, but it doesn't follow that it should be equally secret to the readers.

 

A good parallel would be the Dark Angels; they have a bunch of secrets that noone except their inner circle knows about. Yet the biggest secret of all is well known to anyone who has glanced at their fluff once or twice. Knowing what the DA are covering up makes them more interesting, not less.

This is not always the case of course, but unless there's a TV series coming up, I really don't think you're ruining anything by telling us who the murderer is (my money's on the gardener. He seems to be a shady character) ;)

[Ecritter]

After reading the guidelines ... several times, I've decided to come at this from a new angle ... that of a writer (and reader) to a fellow writer.

 

One of the first things a writer must do is to decide on what his target audience is.  I presume by the fact that you've posted this on a WH40k forum full of people that have played, read, and/or studied the WH40k environment for at least some time, that you're targeting us.  The fact that you asked for feedback (which requires our reading your article backs that up also).

 

Now, the major problem with bringing an "alternate universe" to this forum is at least two fold.  Firstly, we are well versed in the "canon" WH40k universe (some more then others), and second (and this will be your problem) is that, while you know everything about your universe ... we (the readers) know nothing until you tell us.  So far you've told us next to nothing about how your universe differs from the one we all know.

 

With that in mind, I've decided to break down your article not as a WH40k fan, but as a writer/reader.  I think this may help you to better present your article for others to read.  Afterall, the main reason for posting your writing is, and always should be, for it to be read and enjoyed by others.

 

So .. here goes.

 

 

All the Unknowns (not really a quote, but it gets the point across).

 

In a good story, mystery can be used for dramatic effect, to allow the reader to fill in the blanks (on some small issues) themselves, or to make a point about something.

 

The problem comes when everything is a mystery and nothing is ever revealed.  For me, the reader, this doesn't lead to drama, there's no way for me to fill in everything (since I know nothing about your universe and you've refused to tell me), and if there's a point it seems to have been lost.  So to me as a reader having everything unknown and nothing ever revealed just points me to think someone is a lazy writer.

 

 

Origins of the Chapter

 

Well, firstly and most apparent is the lack of any origins in this paragraph at all.  In fact it would read better and make more sense if the title were changed to "History of the Chapter" or "Recent History of the Chapter."  

 

Secondly, for me the reader, it seems that this paragraph is simply two or three loosely related ideas thrown together into a single paragraph.  Each of the ideas could use some more development (since I've pointed out that I know nothing about your universe, so you will have to explain everything to me).

 

 

The Chapter's origins are completely unknown to the Imperium. They appeared out of nowhere and there were no records of them.

 

Idea one, as I see it as the reader.  

 

- Interesting, has potential but has yet to develop.

- What is the Imperium in your universe like (good place to start telling us)

- "Appeared out of nowhere" gives me the impression of materialization from thin air.  Is that what you mean, if not you may want to rewrite or explain further.

 

Idea two (Inquisitional scrutiny).

 

- Again, has potential but has been done to death and is hardly original anymore (at least around here).

- Please tell us about how the Inquisition works in your universe, because as you've written it, they work completely different then the one we know.

 

Other Ideas (war material; number of marines; formations; etc).

 

- All of these need to be developed more, because as it is now (single short paragraph) it seems jumbled and leaves me the reader confused and thinking you may be confused as well.

- Remember, if something is worth mentioning .... it's worth explaining.

 

 

Organization / Chapter Fleet

 

As a reader, list tell me nothing about the article really ... most times I simply ignore them.  To me, you could simply replace both of these sections with a single combined section with a paragraph saying something like the following:

 

"The Chapter's organization can be likened to a Battalion from the Legions of old (if Legions were that way before in your Universe and this is not the norm in your universe.  Explanations when the reader has no idea of what's right and wrong are always good), and its fleet contains ships not normally associated with Space Marine Chapters (again, unless in your universe all chapters have these fleets ... you've have to tell us either way)."

 

 

Combat Doctrine

 

Again you use terms like "out of nowhere" and "in the blink of an eye", are you meaning for me the reader to think they are materializing in this way or are you just saying they are mysterious and secretive?  Since as a reader, I'm not able to see into your mind and I would never make assumptions on the subject ... you'll have to explain to make it more clear.

 

The list on the Wraith Squadrons does nothing for me as a reader.  Simple explanations are the best.  Lists are not fun to read and are often skipped.  I'm sure you want us to read your article and not skip over it.

 

 

Regard for Knowledge

 

Firstly, this paragraph has multiple ideas that deserve their own paragraph.  Don't be a lazy writer, if you mention it ... explain it.  Secondly, this all seems very contrary to your opening.  A chapter with a high regard for knowledge but has none about itself, to me that seems confused and not very well thought out.

 

Why do they seek knowledge, are they looking for their history?  Why do they feel the need for this advanced technology, are they that hard pressed by their enemies?  Two very good points you can expand to make this work better.

 

 

Geneseed

 

Since we know nothing about the Imperium, the AdMech, the Inquisition, or in truth anything else in your universe yet ... this is left lacking and kinda meaningless.

 

Without at least some baseline information about your universe, and since we can't compare it to the universe we all know ... to me this whole section really says nothing (or at least nothing I can understand and enjoy).

 

 

Recruiting / The Knight Worlds

 

Again these sections should be combined in my opinion as a reader, since they deal with the exact same thing.  After reading them, I'm left with more questions then before I read them (never a good thing).

 

- How many Knight Worlds?

- How are they hidden?

- 6 Clans but do the come from a single world, some from one and some from another, or all from different worlds?

 

 

The Clans

 

Firstly, all that you've provided is stolen copyrighted images and names.  The Mods will have to deal with the stolen copyrighted image issue, but from your statements in the Chaos sub-forum, I know you're aware of what it is and how serious others can get over it.  GW is one of the toughest in dealing with theft of intellectual property, not sure about how FASA Corp (edit,Topps now own all rights to Battletech) deals with those issues myself.

 

Secondly, I've played Battletech since the beginning and although I may know something about the clans used in that game I know nothing about yours.  Rather then provide us with an image (copyrighted) and a name, it would be nice if you told us something abotu the clans.  You may know alot about the clans, and you may expect others to know some, but as a writer you should always write to the lowest common denominator ... in other words write as if I know nothing.

 

I hope that will at least help in some small way.

 

****************************************************

 

Another idea I had, if you even bother to read down this far, is rather then make them a SM force (which looks nothing like a SM force that we know), and since you have such close ties to the AdMech and want super cool gear .... why not just make them a Titan Legion.  That way, you have all the cool gear, all the ships (plus some only the AdMech uses), you don't have to explain your entire universe to us, and best of all for a Battletech fan ..... you get giant robots.

 

Just an idea.

 

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ecritter

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

@NightrawenII - the point about the use of battleships: both raven and you are correct. perhaps the converted battleships idea is a logically fallacy, but he was correct to point out that sms do use, in some rare cases, battleships (ex space wolves). that is what was important in the post. i will clarify were the chapter gets war material such as battleships from soon. i suggest you read below as well, as it might help explain some things and when to expect certain info. second point - you seem to enjoy berating Griph. lastly the rest of your post is not feedback. your post is one the reasons the mod decided to lock the thread. please take his advise and bring things back to productive discussion.

 

General - SInce some people seem to have issues thinking of this as a story or that im addressing the audience as part of the story, specifiically as the greater 40k universe: i am considering starting to write on the origins. kinda ruins the fun, but im tired of hearing about it. also, Antarius, this is not an alt timeline, it is meant to work with official lore. also, "money on the gardener" lol, some likes old mysteries.

 

@Ecritter - general response to your comments and some answers. I also highly recommend that everyone else read this. Note: miss somethings when i first posted, so some of these are answered in others sections of this post. hope it is not confusing.

 

my aim for the audience was for you guys to feel like part of the story. you were to be the 40k universe at large.

 

This was never intended as alt universe. that is another of my DIYs. honestly, iv read all the posts here and i have no idea where that idea came from. if someone could explain where they got that from that would be useful. so please, for anyone who is thinking this way, that would the first problem in trying to understand my chapter. i can add that it is official fluff in the first post if that would help.

 

first thing - see the rest of this post. the issues here are answered or if not i see the need for clarification.

 

organization/fleet - i am a bit ocd about organization in military forces so i enjoy creating the details and posting it. i also formatted this somewhat like a report on the chapter. as for the fleet, i enjoy thinking up the details of the fleet composition and naming ships. so these sections are more of just a personal touch.

 

combat doct - i see that the out of nowhere deal is a problem, ill clarify it. for now though, they dont use sorcery and pop out the warp or something haha. wraith squadrons, i just though of it as a unique formation and was looking for peoples thoughts on it alone, not really in the bigger picture. as for lists, like i said above i am ocd about organization and enjoy thinking up the details of it.

 

addressing the mystery - as i have said, i have purposely not revealed hardly anything about the origins of the chapter or geneseed yet as it part of a story. i will reveal it in time. the idea was to, as i continue to write, provide hints in my writing that point at their dangerous origins. that said, i have really only just begun doing that, as i have just gotten kinda the basic idea of the chapter written.

 

origins section - i see your point about the title. i will put something more fitting. as for the info there, yes i see that it is kinda a mess. that will be the section i will be working on for the majority of my future writing. i wrote it to be brief and give ppl a basic idea for the moment.

 

regard for knowledge - loves knowledge but much of their own is missing - think Blood Ravens. actually this section was a newer idea. i created it in order to make the AdMech alliance and presence of archotech more believable. points for expansion - i see the need for explanation here and how it makes a better story, i will brainstorm on this and write on it at some point.

 

Geneseed - alt timeline thinking is problem number one here. again, no idea where that came from. my reasons for not giving much info here is the same as the origins. what info is here was meant to provide some reason why it is unknown and how they get around the necessary gene tithes.

 

Knight Worlds/Recruitment - i initially had these combined, but i felt it was too confusing and had too many ideas in one section. i could combine it again and everyone could let me know what they think - combine/dont combine. otherwise, the knight worlds have been something i continue to think about. my biggest issue when writing about them has been lack of official lore on them. as iv said before, i would appreciate any info about them that people know from books etc. do they have to have knight titans? my understanding is that they dont. but if someone has a source that says they do, then that presents a serious issue. anyway i picked them because they seemed the only type of world suited to my techno-clan society idea. also, i will clarify those 3 points.

 

Clans - the images are not illegal to take if they are on the battletech wiki. i saved the images to my own photo files and uploaded them. i am a battletech fan myself. in fact i am part of a group dedicated to it. i will try to add some info on each individual clan.

 

Last idea - Giant robots are alot of fun, but i want to keep it a sm chapter. it is meant to be very different from a normal chapter. as for titans, see what i said about the knight worlds and let me know about the situation with knight titans

 

Finally - this should help clarify things and give you a better idea of my intentions. let me know if you think any of that should be added to first post. "if you even bother to read down this far" - some of the posters, including yourself, have a misconception that i dont want feedback or feedback that disagrees with me. i have no problem with productive and respectful feedback, whether it says yay or big problems. your previous comments have already been discussed to death, so i dont what dwell on that nor is this the place for that. this post however, is indeed productive, respectful and helpful, so thank you for that.

Edited April 12, 2013 by The Lord Marshal

[Ecritter]

Okay two things based on your last response.

 

Firstly, you really need to separate the Inquisition from the Tithe issue if you're wanting it to fit in the standard 40k verse.  The Inquisition really has nothing to do with the Geneseed Tithes, that's all AdMech.  The Inquisition can be after them for any number of reasons, sudden appearance, unknown chapter, etc ... just not because of the Tithes.  You can still have Inquisition problems and a pact with the AdMech ... you just need to separate them.

 

Lastly, according to Topps, as lisenced by Catalyst Game Labs, those images are all their Intellectual Property.  You may not have gotten them directly from Topps or CGT, and the site you got them from may or may not have had permission to use them, but even if they did that permission would not carry over to you.  B&C has a strict rule concerning the unauthorized use of Intellectual Property ... to protect the site from lawsuits and keep this great community open.

 

EDIT:

 

Mostly we do our own original pics here.  If you need help, just ask.  I do my own and I'd be willing to help.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Ecritter

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i saw the tithes as a secondary interest for the Inq based on their primary suspicions.  but i see your point and so i will clarify those things and separate it.

 

images issue. given that those have been on the battletech wiki and many other things for years, i doubt there is problem if one uses them. however, if you think i should put the source, i will.  i dont want to create a problem for the B&C.

 

i could use some help in coming up with an actual chapter badge. so im open to suggestions for that. also with programs ppl use for those designs, preferably free programs.

[Ecritter]

Its not a simple issue about putting the source, the Legal Section of their site says that content (including images) are not to be used without their permission.  So you'd need to contact them to get permission.  In the end, its just easier to make your own.

 

I use Photoshop ... its free.

[Messor]

GIMP is also free, and supposedly more beginner friendly. What version of PS can you get for free, Ecritter?

[Ecritter]

GIMP is also free, and supposedly more beginner friendly. What version of PS can you get for free, Ecritter?

Sorry, not PS ... its Paint.NET software.  I had much better software before my last computer crashed though.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

arg that really doesnt make much sense on the part of battletech but watevr.  i guess ill have to take images and rework my own versions.  i never did really like the green triangle in steel viper's badge.

 

well i think ill go download one of those programs. thank you fellas

[Octavulg]

You don't need to post all the symbols here. They can't stop you using decals, and us knowing exactly what wolf head is being used for Clan Wolf isn't that important. Might be simpler to just gloss over it, rather than make up a bunch of new ones.

 

Plus, very thematically appropriate to have Unseen symbols.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

ok so i will remove the clan symbols until i figure out what to do with them.

 

Also, i have alot of important real life things going on in the next few weeks, so i will not be doing any writing until thats all done.  i will let you all know when i will start writing again.  however, i will check every now and then for begging questions, although i will not write any long responses until later.

 

Thanks for your patience

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

ok so i know i have been gone a while. sorry about that. im back tho. as it is summer i will e working on this more slowly.  i also have a lot to review here and catch up on.  so i will start working on the various things that need revision/clarification first then do more new stuff after.  i will be doing this in part so as to keep my mind straight on what im writing about.  i will post at the top of the first post what i will be working on at the moment and ask that everyone try to keep that as the feedback priority topic.  thanks!

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i appologize for the previous post. i really did think i was going to have more time here, but with my work schedule i was wrong. i do however hope that it changes soon and i can actually get back to this.  as usual, i greatly appreciate the patience

Edited May 27, 2013 by The Lord Marshal