4 games, 4 losses to the new Tau Codex

[John117]

So, my last 4 games of 40k were to the new Tau codex and I've lost every game. I've been playing Chaos for a long time now and have always been fairly successful.

 

Here's the brick wall I'm bashing my head against...

 

- A solid firebase. 20-30 fire warriors, that generally speaking, shoot me once/twice each at 30" (one of the 2-3 squads is granted an extra shot by a character in their unit), rapid fire me as I get closer (2-3) shots each, then I generally take between 30-70 over watch shots thanks to supporting fire.

 

- A hammer head and broadside team cracking my transports at range with ease. (The hammerhead with Farstrike is granted BS5, Twin linked, tank hunter and can overwatch, all for 45 points...)

 

- A deep striking team of jumpsuits consisting of Shadowsun, Farsight and 3-4 body guards are able to deepstrike, DO NOT SCATTER, and melt something. A second team of suits can then deepstrike within 6" of them without scattering, the are then aloud to JUMP 3D6 inches away from anything that survived. They also take plenty of drones to suck up wounds, and Shadowsun/Stealth suits are granted Stealth AND Shrouded, making them very hard to kill.

 

- Marker lights to buff his shooting and strip my cover when I pop smoke/hide in ruins. These guys can also buff his over watch!

 

I am a a competent player, but the last 4 games have not been close. They have been some of the most 1 sided games I have played. I've tried a variety of different units and nothing is really working. 

 

Has anybody had any success vs the new Tau codex?

 

TLDR: A fire base that nothing is getting close to, a S10AP1, twin-linked, BS5, tankhunter shot each turn, Broadsides to take out the transports and None-scattering, Deep-striking, melta squads that can retreat 3D6 inches after melting. Help!

[Warsmith Aznable]

What sort of things have you tried?

[King Willy]

Damn I guess people really aren t playing the way gw sees it cause no way these types of lists should get through play testing with a nod.

 

Anyhow I managed a good game using forge fiends and bikers but much of the bikes work was lucky precisions on those damn fire blades.

 

The fiend on the other hand hades autocannons were my friends they can easily pop that damn farstrike hammerhead easily on turn one then draw a ton of fire from all around but since you got two it's not so bad since broadsides a only strength 8 now the warriors were a pain since they got strength 5 guns but they still waste a lot of fire wrecking rhinos

 

All it took was one with a dirge caster and I was laughing the broadsides get smashed by the forge fiends very nicely.

 

As for the suit drop call him an ass and see if you can t deal with it by trapping him in I guess

 

Not to much experience with such an annoying unit I guess pile on the plasma or like I said scoot them bikes round and try and catch him in an assault

[hornywingythingy]

I haven't played them yet, but they do seem more powerful than the other 6th ed codeci, I dunno, but the riptide looks horribly horribly powerful for what it does, and I have the feeling from the type of players jumping on the tau bandwagon in my area, we have the new necron power level Codex. I dunno, you could possibly use slaanesh demon magic to stop the overwatch, dunno though, tau seem to be pretty hard counters to the current meta lists.

[King Willy]

Riptides a surprisingly easy to deal with however you d kill a dreadnight is how you kill a riptide that generator is Lulzy as hell since it will be wounding one third of the time and then the thing has a plasma shower and falls over

 

But it really is a disgustingly powerful dex with amazing flexibility I'm kinda enjoying playing a none meq army that is really tough to topple but I stand by my first comment

 

Gw needs a testing group designed to break a dex rather then what ever they doing now cause it seems like the testers spend all there time yelling out fluffy plot level wargear

[John117]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone :-)

R.E. Dirge caster: Dirge casters only work on units within 6" of the vehicle. With the supporting fire rules, Tau have so many units available to over watch that there is no way you are going to have a Dirge caster within 6 of all of them. Not unless you tailor your list to that one trick. It is a nice idea though, and I have been running a land raider with Dirge caster and did manage to stop 1 squad from over watching, unfortunately my opponent is smart and had 3 other units within 6" that could over watch anyway.

 

R.E. Mauler Fiends and Bikers: Mauler Fiends and Bikers (Mark of Nurgle) seem to be a nice way to counter the fire warrior/pathfinder units. They are going to attract a lot of marker lights in my opinion but Pules Rifles aren't going to do much vs Armour 12/T6. Nurgle bikers are next on my list of things to try. With Farstrike Hammerhead on the table, your Maulerfiends won't last 2 seconds unless you have a few of them. Vehicles in general are not going to last long unless you have a lot of them.

 

R.E. Forge Fiend and Havoks: As much as I don't want to fight my opponent on his terms, I think bringing some fire support is going to be key. As much as rushing Tau and getting into melee ASAP FEELS like it should be my focus, the amounts fire you take (especially overwatch with marker light fire) is too big a problem I feel. Rather than rushing the Tau, I think softening them up with fire might be the way to go. How you do that without getting picked apart by Railguns is a another question.

 

R.E. The Codex being over-powered/broken: I think the Tau got a lot better and we don't yet know how to counter them, in my opinion it's too early to call them OP. I will say this though... 2 things in the new book strike me as a little crazy, and they are, Farsight NOT SCATTERING and then jumping 3D6" away. This combined with melta just seems too much. I don't like to call things OP, I really don't, but this one really has me wondering. Also, why would you not include Farstrike in your hammerhead? PASK, by comparison, is 5 points more and grants a Leman Russ BS 4 and +1 to Armour Penetration rolls. Farstrike is 5 point LESS and grants BS5, twin linked, tank hunter and overwatch (possibly night fight too?) again, I really don't like to call things OP, I don't. I just don't see anybody ever not including him...

 

R.E. What have I tried so far?: Any infantry I have taking (cultist, marines, beserkers and plauge marines) have been killed by the weight of fire from all the pules rifle shots. The vehicles I've taken (mostly Land Raiders and Rihnos) have been cracked by Farstrike/broadsides Turn 1 usually, Turn 2 if I get lucky. Special Characters like Abaddon or Chaos Lords hiding among cultists have managed to reach his lines by using the cultists to soak up all the fire. But they generally kill a squad and then die next turn. I am yet to try Raptors and Bikes, these are next on my list. I am also going to try bringing more supporting fire to these games in a hope to nail that hammerhead which will allow my vehicles to advance a little easier.

 

Thanks guys, keep it coming ^^ 

[King Willy]

A pattern I ve seen is you may be going 1 for 1 on kill points when it comes to long range shooting so try and prioritise its actually rather hard to crack av 12 with one to three strength 8 shots per unit since it usually only one or two glancing or penetrating

 

Your chaos so we gotta deal with a dex that's a lot better then most but just can t compete with ultra specialised armies and expect to auto pilot through other then what I've suggested just keep trying different things till you find the stuff that fits

 

That or tailor the living :cusse out of your lists and be that guy

[John117]

What would really be appreciated, if you guys have any ideas, is how to deal with the Farsight/Shadowsun combo. These guys jump down next to you without scattering, melt something big and then retreat 3D6 away? How do you counter that? 3D6 often puts them out of a realistic charge range (they drop within 9" to get the melta bonus then run 3D6 away, that's an average of about 20" away assuming their target was towards the front of your force). These guys also have hit and run. Shooting them is not impossible, but they get +3 to their cover save if they are in cover... It smells like a deathstar....

[totgeboren]

First off, Longstrike does not grant twin-link, which makes quite a difference when he fires overwatch.
The Fireblade ability to fire one extra shot only works if they stand still (just wanted to point this out).
The Fireblade, Shadowsun, Farsight are all HQs. Maybe you are playing over 2000 pts? Otherwise he has too many HQs.

Remember that Markerlight hits are removed at the end of the shooting phase (or when they are used), so the only way you can use a markerlight during overwatch is if you manage to hit with a markerlight snap shot, and then a unit next to you can use the markerlight hit for their supporting fire overwatch.

No one so far gets to use teleport homers or similar gear if the homer is not on the table at the beginning of the turn, which makes me believe that a Homing Beacon cannot be used by other deep strikers on the same turn the homer arrives from deep strike. I dunno what the FAQ says. I can't find anything that would allow them to deep-strike without scatter though, as I assume the Homing Beacon needs to be on the table, and the positional relay only aids outflankers.

He can also only use supporting fire overwatch if the supporters are within 6" of the assaulted unit, and a unit may still only fire overwatch once. This means he is either bunched up (so a Defiler with the big blast might not be all that bad), or if you really want to get into close combat, do it with more than one unit. Spawn or bikes or anything fast should be able to engage him, and all the units that use supporting overwatch can't use it to save themselves. For example, move up close enough to be a credible threat to a firewarrior squad, declare assault. He now needs to overwatch with all the units he elects to use, and might kill a bike or two. Then roll for assault. Next take your spawn or whatever else you have and declare an assault on one of his units that has now already overwatched with.

[John117]

First off, Longstrike does not grant twin-link, which makes quite a difference when he fires overwatch.

The Fireblade ability to fire one extra shot only works if they stand still (just wanted to point this out).

The Fireblade, Shadowsun, Farsight are all HQs. Maybe you are playing over 2000 pts? Otherwise he has too many HQs.

 

Remember that Markerlight hits are removed at the end of the shooting phase (or when they are used), so the only way you can use a markerlight during overwatch is if you manage to hit with a markerlight snap shot, and then a unit next to you can use the markerlight hit for their supporting fire overwatch.

 

No one so far gets to use teleport homers or similar gear if the homer is not on the table at the beginning of the turn, which makes me believe that a Homing Beacon cannot be used by other deep strikers on the same turn the homer arrives from deep strike. I dunno what the FAQ says. I can't find anything that would allow them to deep-strike without scatter though, as I assume the Homing Beacon needs to be on the table, and the positional relay only aids outflankers.

 

He can also only use supporting fire overwatch if the supporters are within 6" of the assaulted unit, and a unit may still only fire overwatch once. This means he is either bunched up (so a Defiler with the big blast might not be all that bad), or if you really want to get into close combat, do it with more than one unit. Spawn or bikes or anything fast should be able to engage him, and all the units that use supporting overwatch can't use it to save themselves. For example, move up close enough to be a credible threat to a firewarrior squad, declare assault. He now needs to overwatch with all the units he elects to use, and might kill a bike or two. Then roll for assault. Next take your spawn or whatever else you have and declare an assault on one of his units that has now already overwatched with.

Wow. Thank you!

 

Longstrike is not twin-linked? Is there another way he could be getting that?

NO we are not playing over 2k and YES he is using too many HQ's, thank you.

Marker lights removed in the shooting phase, THANK YOU!

Can Farsight deepstrike without scatter?

I think my opponant has at least been doing over watch right :-P

[Warsmith Aznable]

Try a pair of Heldrakes with Baleflamers. Contrary to what their name implies, Fire Warriors don't deal with flame templates very well at all. Neither do Crisis suits, for that matter.

 

Autocannon Havocs or Oblits with MoN for T5 fire support, put them in ruins for 4+ cover save against most things.

 

Load up regular CSM squads with plasma and hug the terrain. Avoid his troops until your Heldrakes have hit them first.

 

Target drone squads early with concentrated fire to deny him their shenanigans.

 

Don't assault anything until your heavy support and fast attack has broken his formation.

[John117]

Thank you :-)

[totgeboren]

Well, I see now that Farsight has 'Through boldness, Victory', which allows him to deep strike without scatter. I thought he had 'Through Unity, Devastation', which makes him killier.

 

So he can deep strike without scatter sadly, and Shadowsun allows them to jump 3D6 instead of 2D6 in the assault phase, and gives them stealth and Shrouded. Lots of points in a single unit though, which if assaulted should be destroyed fairly easily.

 

Hehe, you could include IG allies with a Master of the Fleet giving him -1 to reserves, and a LR Proteus which can force him to reroll successful reserves. That would mean his mega-unit of suits will only have a 25% chance of showing up on turn 2 and 3, giving you about half the battle to deal with the rest of his (leaderless) army. Not really serious, but having two special characters in one unit, in reserve, is risky, as they might not show up until late in the battle.

[Beachymike123]

as well as the tactics discussed, a good old favourite of mine when against the tau is divide and conquer. this is best pulled off with something that can drive a wedge between the units but act and survive as a fire sponge for your other units. you can incorporate a tank shock into this as well to help drive his units back but this can be a bit risky if he chooses and succeeds with death or glory. bikers and spawn with MoN will be your best bet with this, but they will need back up so either fire support or a transported unit to help tie things over wouldn't go amiss. 

[Tenebris]

Master of the Fleet is a nasty thing with armies that rely on reserves for their deep strikers. Again I think that here we have to use the old tried and tested tricks we have learned in the 5th against the dominant Imperial Guard (by the Emperor I love them). Flamers are the killer for GEQ armies and as chaos marines we have many ways to bring the flamers in range. I think that MSU terminators with combiflamers are a viable option in deep strike and the 2+ save can give you a fighting chance against the Overwatch. Forget about the Warp Talons, their Blind rule would have been awesome if not every Tau unit has some sort of access to the Blacksun filter which negates the rule. Fear can be useful too but Tau have notoriously high discipline overall with their cheap buff characters...

 

- So use the Maulerfiends to tie their units in melee and than follow with a combat specialist for the killing blow;

- Bubble wrap everything in cultists if you have a static army;

- MSU are the answer. Blastmaster Noise Marines have the range to deal with most of the Tau units;

- Baleflamer Drakes...I repeat if someone didn't hear, BALEFLAMER HELLDRAKE! I don't like it a bit but we are forced to use it;

- MSU Bikers with flamers is a nasty thing I suppose.

- For Battlesuits I think Autocannon Havocs are our option to counter them or the Hades Forgy.

[corlinjewell]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have my codex or rulebook on me), but I though that you couldn't you the assault move on the jetpacks if you deepstrike (since DS prevents you from assaulting and I think the rulebook says you can only do that if you can assault).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Farsight's no-scatter ability is a result of his Warlord Trait, not any gear or a homing beacon, so yes, he's been doing that right.

 

As for the jetpack move after deep striking, you've always been able to make jet pack moves in the Assault Phase, so long as you're not actually assaulting anything. Warp Spiders, while a slightly different case, are an example, since the FAQ specifically points out that they are allowed to do so long as they're not assaulting the enemy.

[Sception]

Wow. Thank you!

 

Longstrike is not twin-linked? Is there another way he could be getting that?

NO we are not playing over 2k and YES he is using too many HQ's, thank you.

Marker lights removed in the shooting phase, THANK YOU!

Aw, man, how do I keep losing to this guy who's blatantly cheating all over the place?

 

[Mirror Darkly]

Alright John117

 

It also looks like your friend is using two warlord traits (no scatter on deepstrike and jumping 3d6) now i'm only getting back into the game myself but i'm sure there can only one warlord so only one trait can be used.

[TheDevourer]

Isn´t the farsight rule with the non scatter a warlord trait? And isn´t the 3d6" jump also a warlord trait (shadowsun). If so I would like to know why your opponent is allowed to play 2 warlords and doesn´t have to follow the rule of only having one warlord.

[Upstartes]

What about an aegis line with a quad gun? Four TL S7 shots firing in response to the deep strike (Interceptor!) might make his deep strike team a little unhappy.

[Verythrax Draconis]

i'm not impressed, since it always happen with new codices - usually only who bothers playing these armies buy/read them at release and build broken lists, since nobody knows it enough t o point the mistakes - and sometimes even do it willingly, for their own advantage

[Cmdr Shepard]

Have you ever considered how CSM themselves could help Tau, thus allowing Tau to use CSM units against themselves?

For example 35 Plague Zombie Cultists provides a good shield for Tau gun lines, Just a radom thought

It seems the Tau player mentioned in OP made some mistake (intentional or not ) like using two warlord traits

On the Longstrike issue: he is not twin-linked but he has tank hunter so he rerolls armour pen roll... His hammerhead can get reroll to hit with a good number of marklights, though. With 5 markerlights he is de facto twin linked... but his hammerhead is not twin linked "out of the box" without markerlights

[the jeske]

For example 35 Plague Zombie Cultists provides a good shield for Tau gun lines,  Just a radom thought

an almost 400pts tar pit unit ? isnt it better to take SW and get better melee and better shoting and utility in the form rune staff+choser then ?

[zyl-]

Holy wow, Jeske. What codex do you have?? 35 cultists are 150 points. If you have Typhus in a tar pit you might be doing it wrong. Unless the point is to challenge out warlords.

 

Anyhow.. yes your opponent is not legit. From what I read, though, it doesn't look like you are using the best tricks our codex has to try to beat him. juggerlord, baledrake, burning brand, zombies, bikes.. all some of the better things we can put into the game. Of course if we could field Khârn, Typhus, and Huron and use all their warlord traits it might put things in our favor a little.