4 games, 4 losses to the new Tau Codex

[Bonzi]

Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.  Ignores cover and melts 3+ save units.  The blastmasters even instakill T4.  See how eager he is to DS close to multiple MSU Noise Marine units which will blow his crisis squads apart after he pulls his one trick pony.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I agree with Jeske's math. You are paying a ton of points to get Typhus to get those Zombies. Its an overhead cost.

 

But I think the OP's main issues is that this guy is bending the rules to the extreme. 3 HQs and using 2 warlord abilities. Plus whatever else. I hate playing against people like that. Either he is a cheater or he needs to read his rulebook and codex. Either way I dont want to have to teach someone to play their army if they are a competitive player.

 

John, make sure you are holding him to the rules. If you still have problems then we can give more advice. Zyl has some good advice- baledrakes, burning brand, bikes... these are good things to try.

 

Edit: Bonzi that is nasty! Nice idea!

[the jeske]

I agree with Jeske's math.

An unwise thing to do , I am beyond terrible at it , all I know is from what I see durning testing ,Math hammer is too complicated for me to use in game .

 

 

I always wondered why cant armies ally with an army of the same type , nids would be a lot more balanced if they had an extra elite slot .

[hornywingythingy]

Holy wow, Jeske. What codex do you have?? 35 cultists are 150 points. If you have Typhus in a tar pit you might be doing it wrong. Unless the point is to challenge out warlords.

 

Including the points cost of typhus? Since you can't field zombies without typhus, it costs 400ish to field the zombies with the typhus tax.

[Brother Nihm]

Try fielding 2 Hell Turkeys for the firebase and 1 large squad of Slaaneshi bikers to catch the suits?

 

Revenge is a dish best served with the Mark of Slaanesh.

[totgeboren]

Just have to point out, for all you who are struggling with the new Tau, this article could be useful.

 

http://immaterium.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/tau-rules-clarification-public-service-announcement/

[Chaeron]

 

Holy wow, Jeske. What codex do you have?? 35 cultists are 150 points. If you have Typhus in a tar pit you might be doing it wrong. Unless the point is to challenge out warlords.

Including the points cost of typhus? Since you can't field zombies without typhus, it costs 400ish to field the zombies with the typhus tax.

 

And yup - this is the reason.

 

 

 

Wow. Thank you!

 

Longstrike is not twin-linked? Is there another way he could be getting that?

NO we are not playing over 2k and YES he is using too many HQ's, thank you.

Marker lights removed in the shooting phase, THANK YOU!

Aw, man, how do I keep losing to this guy who's blatantly cheating all over the place?

 

 

We have a winner!

[Slayer le Boucher]

Might also try Deamon Allies.

 

BT with Grimoire, Flesh hounds that can scout + Soul grinder with his AV13 and 5++ save.

 

Based on Squads of Khorne Marines, with double plasma/melta, Bikes with a Jugger Lord+2 Drakes.

 

Or you can try with Huron as a warlord to infiltrate/Flank up to 3 Marines squads reall close on his flanks, forcing him to partially redeploy his gun line.

[Cmdr Shepard]

For example 35 Plague Zombie Cultists provides a good shield for Tau gun lines, Just a radom thought

an almost 400pts tar pit unit ? isnt it better to take SW and get better melee and better shoting and utility in the form rune staff+choser then ?

They are not 400 pts. They are about 150 pts. Typhus would be sent with other unit to engange enemies in CC, which would be useful for them to have a cc unit so no points wasted... at least not too much waste...

If you put 35 cultists at 2" distance they will cover a lot a ground forming a security line. Conside pile in movements are 3" for each model and if no model can be brought in contact in a give Initiative Step the assaul ends immediately.. unless I forgot something. So that 70" security line will keep most things away from Tau gun line and they jet infantry/skimmers can still move though them.

It was just an exercise of unconventional thinking ;)

Would it be effective? I don't know because I hadn't the chance to evaluate it further. Would it be fun? I think not since the "security line" will be boring at best.

SW are obviously the best choice for everyone who ally themselves with them... as I said just an example of unconventional thinking... but I don't want to go off topic ;)

[the jeske]

It was just an exercise of unconventional thinking

good thing your opponent is killing closest model to model and if he does a 6" gap your whole line unit will now be walking[no runing for S&P] to stay legaly within 2" of each other now lets add terrain or lets say he killes more then 3 zombis [tau are kind of a shoty army , so they should be able to kill 3+zombi models per turn right] . I like your unortodox thinking.

Typhus would be sent with other unit to engange enemies in CC, which

would be useful for them to have a cc unit so no points wasted... at

least not too much waste...

and which unit would that be ? maybe a LR[tyfus wont fit in to a rhino and is to slow for anything which may actualy reach melee on its own] with a unit . now that would be awesome not only a 200+ tax to get 2 units of zombis , but also an investment of 300+pts minium on top of that to get a non machine spirit LR.... no wait ... this tau.... arent they kind of a good at killing tanks and stuff , specialy with those possible meq ally . a first blood + negeting a 600points unit by losing a GH pod squad seems like a good trade , but hey what do I know about unortodox , am Russian [probably no one will get this joke but i'll make it anyway].

[TheDevourer]

Sarcasm level over 9000 and troll joke at end. A bit harsh, but I agree with what jeske is saying. Typhus is just a problematic area of the codex. He´s better reserved for lower points and going full zombies and then hoping you pull the right lists in order to win.

[Tenebris]

Patriarch Jeske  :)

 

Well I come from a long service run in the Imperial Guard ranks and I still have the aversion for expensive HQ and expensive troops. As I see it you will do better if you invest in an overall more affordable army (trust me 150 models for the cultists are expensive), use Plague Marines to fill the gaps and perhaps deep strike Typhus with a cheap terminator bodyguard with MoN, just so that they eat enemy fire while he does his thing. 

 

As we are now set our Land Raider is a massive investment in points for actually very little gain. Even more dangerous of an investment when your adversary knows exactly where your deathstar is located, and if you do not support it with tons of units it will get blasted in a turn or two leaving you with a 200+ points sink in the middle of the game.

 

 

Go with Plague Marines in Rhinos and support them with some basic cultists squads. Don't go to great lengths with the zombie horde even if we all know that is a winning army. Your friends will be grateful to you for the games will be more speedy and your wallet will be grateful to you since you will spare quite a lot of cash. 

[Cmdr Shepard]

Sarcasm level over 9000 and troll joke at end. A bit harsh, but I agree with what jeske is saying. Typhus is just a problematic area of the codex. He´s better reserved for lower points and going full zombies and then hoping you pull the right lists in order to win.

Who is trolling? Are you saying am I trolling? because I find the statement lacks of logical evidence.

Anyway I'll make it clear once more because I'm tired to have my words twisted (it happens frequently when I talk witj jeske... no offence intended)

1. I read about zombies and I think just out of curiousity. How useful would Typhus and them be in X situation

2. I post few words just to listen on others opinion

3. Then someone make a case out of a simple comment.

I'm a member of this community from several time and I have always been very polite with everyone (just ask around) but every time jeske is involved he starts to twist my words and build flaming-like arguments about how unitelligent my words are. I have been told he does not do it on purpose but I'm getting tired of it.

People does not always come here to post about absolutes. Most of the time they do brain storming, that's why we post about concepts even we are not sure they may work... it's called speculation.

It's not that difficult to understand but someone who always deal in absolute starts arguments which are clearly oriented towards polemics.

I'm tired of that.

Sorry mods, I have no intention to fuel polemic arguments... forgive my outbrust... well not exactly an outbrust but you know what I mean

EDIT:

good thing your opponent is killing closest model to model and if he does a 6" gap your whole line unit will now be walking[no runing for S&P] to stay legaly within 2" of each other now lets add terrain or lets say he killes more then 3 zombis [tau are kind of a shoty army , so they should be able to kill 3+zombi models per turn right] . I like your unortodox thinking.

I was thinking about Tau using zombie as shield for their gunlines not using zombie as shield from tau gun lines. If you don't understand what other write avoid sarcasm.

[TheDevourer]

No about jeskes "unorthodox" joke at the end of his post ;). Sorry, should have made that clearer ;). And the way he explained why Zombies + Typhus are not optimal picks for an army list. 

 

I would advise you to check out the nurgle forum for more speculative posts on zombies rather than post in the jeskes domain. Maybe we can brainstorm something, I´ve been trying to make Typhus work since the codex came out, and I´ve now given up. For fun games he´s ok, but that´s about all.

 

P.s, Friend, don´t take jeske so seriously. He will always talk from a pure competetive angle. It is the way he does it and I appreciate it.

He knows what he is saying and I usually agree with what he says. He´s not flaming, at least I assume so, just as you stated ;).

But his views are focussed on that one area most of the time ;).

[Cmdr Shepard]

No about jeskes "unorthodox" joke at the end of his post . Sorry, should have made that clearer . And the way he explained why Zombies + Typhus are not optimal picks for an army list.

I would advise you to check out the nurgle forum for more speculative posts on zombies rather than post in the jeskes domain. Maybe we can brainstorm something, I´ve been trying to make Typhus work since the codex came out, and I´ve now given up. For fun games he´s ok, but that´s about all.

P.s, Friend, don´t take jeske so seriously. He will always talk from a pure competetive angle. It is the way he does it and I appreciate it.

He knows what he is saying and I usually agree with what he says. He´s not flaming, at least I assume so, just as you stated .

But his views are focussed on that one area most of the time .

Don't worry brother. It's jeske who made me unfriendly. I have been told he has strong communication limitation but he is really annoying sometimes. I know language barrier can create problems but even I'm not a native English speaker but I avoid to be unpolite.

I'll be more than happy to brainstorming on the matter. I never seriously tought to play the combo, I got curious when I read about it and so I asked... that's why we frequent this place after all.. sadly I run into the jeske effect and it often ruins the typical calm and polite atmosphere... no offence intended....and most importantly sorry if I appeared hostile with you in my previous post....

[zyl-]

Just to clarify, I was suggesting that you do something with Typhus other than put him in the tar pit, as was noticed by Shepard. In such a case you aren't paying 400 for a tar pit, but 400 for a tar pit and the makings of another unit. Short of that, you could just use the zombies as a mobile wave long enough to get Typhus close and break him off to pwn entire squads at a time. Either way, Typhus would have value far beyond "tar pit" especially since weapons virus > tau.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Just to clarify, I was suggesting that you do something with Typhus other than put him in the tar pit, as was noticed by Shepard. In such a case you aren't paying 400 for a tar pit, but 400 for a tar pit and the makings of another unit. Short of that, you could just use the zombies as a mobile wave long enough to get Typhus close and break him off to pwn entire squads at a time. Either way, Typhus would have value far beyond "tar pit" especially since weapons virus > tau.

 

Nice to see me point was understandable ;)

In the end the "tarpit" cost would be 150 pts which is not bad. If you spread your model to about 2" from each other you will cover a good area and you will even able to declare disordered charges. Who cares if they didn't get the bonus attack. You want them to block units, after all. Beside with a so large foot print I think there is a high chance the pile in movements won't bring model in contact at each initiative step and if it happenes the assault ends immediatly (unless I'm mistaken... that's what the rule book says). So you just earned another turn of "tarpit.

 

Typhus can join another unit (of any kind: another zombie unit, standard cultists, even standard CSM) and move toward the enemy. He may be slow but he will distract most of the enemy units. Obviously it depends on the synergy of your army and the role for Typhus... what works under a particular condition may not work in a completely different one.

Every army has its own synergy, after all ;)

[the jeske]

use Plague Marines to fill the gaps and perhaps deep strike Typhus with

a cheap terminator bodyguard with MoN, just so that they eat enemy fire

while he does his thing.

and doing so lose first blood and slay the warlord at the same time ?

 

 

 

I was thinking about Tau using zombie as shield for their gunlines not

using zombie as shield from tau gun lines. If you don't understand what

other write avoid sarcasm.

ok . I didnt expact that . not even for a second . why would tau army want zombis [with tyfus tax included] , when for the same points it can take take IG with a comissar , just to take simiular in stats models [of course not in effectivness or synergy because las armed guardsman or AC armed guardsman work better with tau , even as tar pits go the IG can deliver a 3-4 power ax sgt build which may not be fearless , but in general sticks longer then a csm unit does].

 

 

 

Most of the time they do brain storming, that's why we post about

concepts even we are not sure they may work... it's called speculation.

which makes sense if an idea has merit on the table top . using a thin line of zombis doesnt , even if you triple lined it [3x10 one unit 2" apart from each other] , the tau are still fast enough to even force your zombis to move backwords or sides ways[second is more easier to do , using LoS blocking] . At the same time tyfus does nothing for a tau list . he aint a good counter unit [too slow , cant join tau units , cant run around alone . like lets say a mace DP] , all he does is being a tax for zombis and tau have better options for tar pits units , even out of our own dex .

 I give you facts and show you have the synergy[or rather lack of it] looks like and your winking at me ever second sentence and it is me flaming you ? flaming with truth , please . I do have problems with understanding social interaction , sometimes with sentance structure , but dont imply I dont understand the game and how it works .

[Noctus Cornix]

So, while I have neither seen much of the new Tau codex nor have I played against, I would still like to offer an idea or two where I can

 

As an answer to Hammerheads, what happened to the age old Raptor Melta trick? 95 (need to see my codex but I think that's the price) points for a five man squad with two meltas and a melta bomb. If the the player doesn't want to use a Helldrake or doesn't have access to one (like me) these guys usually fill up two of my fast attack slots for some quick tank annihilation.

 

Fire Warriors don't really seem all that threatening if you ask me. Soften them up with defiler blast cannons, plasma cannons, Helldrakes, or Blaster Masters. Pick your poison but they can all work wonders on those squishy fellas.

 

also, Vindicators...

 

As for Farsight Death Squad? My only suggestions would be either noise Marines for mass fire with no saves, and keeping a large bike squad in the back with your army to chew that hooved SoB up when he tries stepping in on your turf.

 

 

Consider it this way, if you will. This is a Battle of Siege Warfare. You are the offending force and this tau battle line is in most respects, the castle. Hurling yourself at the enemy isn't going to do the job and this will only make your body count rise while his cavalry (crisis suits) make a mockery of what's left. By combination of siege units (defilers, havocs, etc.) and small bands of infiltrators to dispose of key elements will you be able to break the foe's line and storm the castle for the slaughter to begin.

 

Man I've been far too fascinated with seige warfare lately.... :p

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

ok . I didnt expact that . not even for a second . why would tau army want zombis [with tyfus tax included] , when for the same points it can take take IG with a comissar , just to take simiular in stats models [of course not in effectivness or synergy because las armed guardsman or AC armed guardsman work better with tau , even as tar pits go the IG can deliver a 3-4 power ax sgt build which may not be fearless , but in general sticks longer then a csm unit does].

 

Why would they want them?

1. For variety purposes: to play something because they already play IG or played IG in the past

2. They have cultists models but not IG units so they don't want to spend money for the allied detachment right now

3. Because Typhus is not actually a tax but a way to bring both the a fearless horde and a CC character. You may conside Typhus bad in cc but it's better than IG characters

4. Because IG blobs are not fearleass and if they lose a combat they may be swept (It can happen)

5. Because the IG blob costs more than 150 pts if you want to bring 4 units with 4 power axes.

[Hellios]

 

ok . I didnt expact that . not even for a second . why would tau army want zombis [with tyfus tax included] , when for the same points it can take take IG with a comissar , just to take simiular in stats models [of course not in effectivness or synergy because las armed guardsman or AC armed guardsman work better with tau , even as tar pits go the IG can deliver a 3-4 power ax sgt build which may not be fearless , but in general sticks longer then a csm unit does].

 

Why would they want them?

1. For variety purposes: to play something because they already play IG or played IG in the past

2. They have cultists models but not IG units so they don't want to spend money for the allied detachment right now

3. Because Typhus is not actually a tax but a way to bring both the a fearless horde and a CC character. You may conside Typhus bad in cc but it's better than IG characters

4. Because IG blobs are not fearleass and if they lose a combat they may be swept (It can happen)

5. Because the IG blob costs more than 150 pts if you want to bring 4 units with 4 power axes.

 

1. Jeske doesn't operate along those lines.

2. If they have cultists... They still don't have any zombie models.

3. I would still say some of Typhus' cost goes towards the Zombies. For his points he isn't great. Also you need to find a unit to put him in. You can't really tag him along with battle suits and I can't really think of many other Tau units that are going to advance on the enemy that he can join. This looks like you need to buy him more friends... What started out as a way to get a cheap tar pit has started to get expensive. Taking Typhus is fine. You can do it for fun, you can do it if you have a plan, but taking him to get plague zombies is not a good idea.

4 + 5. As Jeske says... Commissar Lord + blob squad... costs less than Typhus + zombie unit (unless you want to make it really big)... and you now have a LD10 stubborn unit that can re-roll failed tests. Yeah it could break... I've never seen it happen in combat. You could snipe the commissar lord (although it isn't such a big deal if you have some lesser commissars as well). The IG blob can actually do something at range rather than just waiting to be a tar pit. In cover with stealth they can be pretty tough to shift. If you really want you can equip them with a lot of dakka, but they start getting more expensive. You have more options when it comes to deploying them. Sometimes a few smaller might be a superior option to one big squad.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

 

ok . I didnt expact that . not even for a second . why would tau army want zombis [with tyfus tax included] , when for the same points it can take take IG with a comissar , just to take simiular in stats models [of course not in effectivness or synergy because las armed guardsman or AC armed guardsman work better with tau , even as tar pits go the IG can deliver a 3-4 power ax sgt build which may not be fearless , but in general sticks longer then a csm unit does].

 

Why would they want them?

1. For variety purposes: to play something because they already play IG or played IG in the past

2. They have cultists models but not IG units so they don't want to spend money for the allied detachment right now

3. Because Typhus is not actually a tax but a way to bring both the a fearless horde and a CC character. You may conside Typhus bad in cc but it's better than IG characters

4. Because IG blobs are not fearleass and if they lose a combat they may be swept (It can happen)

5. Because the IG blob costs more than 150 pts if you want to bring 4 units with 4 power axes.

 

1. Jeske doesn't operate along those lines.

2. If they have cultists... They still don't have any zombie models.

3. I would still say some of Typhus' cost goes towards the Zombies. For his points he isn't great. Also you need to find a unit to put him in. You can't really tag him along with battle suits and I can't really think of many other Tau units that are going to advance on the enemy that he can join. This looks like you need to buy him more friends... What started out as a way to get a cheap tar pit has started to get expensive. Taking Typhus is fine. You can do it for fun, you can do it if you have a plan, but taking him to get plague zombies is not a good idea.

4 + 5. As Jeske says... Commissar Lord + blob squad... costs less than Typhus + zombie unit (unless you want to make it really big)... and you now have a LD10 stubborn unit that can re-roll failed tests. Yeah it could break... I've never seen it happen in combat. You could snipe the commissar lord (although it isn't such a big deal if you have some lesser commissars as well). The IG blob can actually do something at range rather than just waiting to be a tar pit. In cover with stealth they can be pretty tough to shift. If you really want you can equip them with a lot of dakka, but they start getting more expensive. You have more options when it comes to deploying them. Sometimes a few smaller might be a superior option to one big squad.

 

If you have cultists you do have zombies. It's more legal to play cultists as zombies than as IG guards.

Anyway the fact is he is saying "you are wrong because you think this build is effective" but I never said it. I only said "Hey brothers what would you think about that'" but the sarcasm and all the stress. Let's end the debate (the jeske case, I mean) since it's like trying to propagate sound in the void.

 

I appreciate the  info you shared on the IG blob tatics, at least it was a constructive opinion ;)

[Hellios]

Anyway the fact is he is saying "you are wrong because you think this build is effective" but I never said it. I only said "Hey brothers what would you think about that'" but the sarcasm and all the stress. Let's end the debate (the jeske case, I mean) since it's like trying to propagate sound in the void.If you have cultists you do have zombies. It's more legal to play cultists as zombies than as IG guards.

I appreciate the info you shared on the IG blob tatics, at least it was a constructive opinion

Well maybe. I would be more likely to let someone use cultists (with Auto-guns) as count as IG (with lasguns) than use them as Zombies in a Chaos army if I was playing somewhere where WYSIWYG was important. Everyday me doesn't care. As for doing things for fun...I'm fine with that; however, Jeske cares not for such arguments.

One of my Chaos armies is pretty much Daemon Princes, Cultists, Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn/Chaos Spine Beast (FW). So I'm cool with fun :D

[Cmdr Shepard]

Anyway the fact is he is saying "you are wrong because you think this build is effective" but I never said it. I only said "Hey brothers what would you think about that'" but the sarcasm and all the stress. Let's end the debate (the jeske case, I mean) since it's like trying to propagate sound in the void.If you have cultists you do have zombies. It's more legal to play cultists as zombies than as IG guards.

I appreciate the info you shared on the IG blob tatics, at least it was a constructive opinion

Well maybe. I would be more likely to let someone use cultists (with Auto-guns) as count as IG (with lasguns) than use them as Zombies in a Chaos army if I was playing somewhere where WYSIWYG was important. Everyday me doesn't care. As for doing things for fun...I'm fine with that; however, Jeske cares not for such arguments.

One of my Chaos armies is pretty much Daemon Princes, Cultists, Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn/Chaos Spine Beast (FW). So I'm cool with fun

But codex Zombies entry says every pistol the model has is only used to beat the enemy, suggesting the use of the standard pistol+CCW models... just a thought

I know he does not care about doing things for fun and I found rather strange because it's our hobby golden rule . I usually try to field effective/competitive armies because I want to win but sometimes I just want to relax with my friends ;)

It does not mean I don't play to win; it only means I want to relax. When it comes to hyper competitve matches (and I play them as well) than everything had to be strategically perfect.

The two behaviours do not exclude each others ;)

[TheDevourer]

"They are armed with a single close combat weapon [...]"  I´d say that is fairly clear. Then it continues "-Guns are used strictly for the purpose of clubbing their victims to death" which I would interpret as saying that zombies may be armed with guns model wise, but may only use them as their One close combat weapon. As they are stated as having 1 cc weapon I doubt they take the cultist entry weapons, as this seems to be listed as an exception to cultists.