Watchers in the Dark fluff

[Upstartes]

I'm not a reader of Black Library novels & stories, but I get the impression that there are extra bits of fluff in some of them regarding the Watchers in the Dark. Is this indeed the case? Is it possible to briefly summarize what we know about them from sources outside the codexes? If not, can someone point me to the books/stories where they pop up?

 

Thanks in advance.

[[TA]Typher]

I've read a lot of the BL books on the DA and I don't remember any fluff regarding them other then they are mysterious.

 

I've always believed that they are a manifestation of the Lion. Beings brought into existence by his psyche. The only friend a lost boy with the geneforging of a God had when he was lost in the forests of a death-world. Using them he could still guide them over the millenia. Imagine if you will the end of his battle with Luther. He is broken and bleeding, and the deeply buried part of him comes, the Watchers... they save him. Much like the fight or flights instinct buried in all living things. I like this idea.

 

But I guess there could be other theories.

 

An Alien species that the DA tolerate. There was a creature like this in the book legion if I remember correctly. Of course tolerating xenos is in very stark contrast to the DA fluff. I find this one unplausable because of this.

 

The other theory it could be is the proxy beings connected to Tchulka (from the book Prince of Crows).

This could be plausable, as the warp machine/entity used people as a proxy to communicate with the material world. The people aged rapidly and it took to using children to delay the usefullness of it's puppets.

Of course you don't see Watchers of varying height so I don't think this theory is all too solid.

[Bryan Blaire]

In the BL book Decent of Angels, the Watchers in the Dark

positively ID themselves as a Xenos species, seemingly a very powerfully psychic one that is decidedly anti-Chaos enough to consider destroying a young latent psychic because of the "taint of Chaos" on him.

[Brother Immolator]

Typher I am sorry to drop down your theory (a good one at that), but in the decent of angels we read that the watchers were integrated into the Calibanite belifs (in some places they were even granted religious reverence) for ages. Certainly long before the Lion made planetfall.

[syddraf]

The idea of them being manifestations of the lion's mind is what I've always gone with. We he first landed on Caliban, a small child even with the power of a demigod, it is hard to believe he could survive alone, but what if he had an imaginary friend, made real by the loin's psychic power, they would be small like children and maybe they stayed that way, a small part of a lost childhood, forever protecting him and his children.

 

I could never see a xenophobic chapter allowing aliens to run about the halls of the rock, or even some chaos spawn creature, but a part of their father's mind wrapped in robes, a small part of the lion always with them. But in the end we will probably never know what their truly are, and thats how I'd like it to stay, another mystery

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I wish syddraf worked for BL now.

[Bryan Blaire]

Actually, the appearance of being super-xenophobic while concealing their true slightly heretical nature of associating with a Xenos group seems right up the insular and paranoid Dark Angels' alley. That there would be more secrets for the DA to keep than just the Fallen makes much more sense than a supernatural "imaginary friend circle" created by the Lion's mind does IMO (especially as those manifested creatures would be demons, based on the nature of Caliban - Xenos are still better than associating with demonic manifestations).

[syddraf]

The different from chaos spawn and the psychic created being of the Lions mind is a big one. I'm a little disappointed about the whole alien thing, for them to be a mystery that has been since Caliban would have been better IMHO.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, if they weren't demons, what would you call them? Only the Warp manifests things into the material realm, even the new 40K rule book admits that psychic power is just a fancy denial term for sorcery... A psychically manifested creature from the Warp is still a demon, no matter how well intended that creature might be.

[[TA]Typher]

Demons? No.

 

It's been said in the HH books that the primarchs themselves are more than a collection of super enhanced DNA. They are connected to the warp. Aken from it. Read the thousand sons. Not everything from the warp is evil. The Emperor himself is of the warp. A collection of souls of ancient shamans that once flowed through it dying and being reborn over and over.

 

No, the warp is not evil, only home to some creatures that are.

 

It would be perfectly reasonable for them to be part of the lion. A failsafe that protects him. Nurtures him. Comforts him. They are the calm unconscious uncontrolable part of him. Soothing the dark chaotic part of him. If only curze was so lucky.

 

In the thousand sons arihman tells a story of how his legion was decimated by a faulty genestock and with the intervention of Magnus they were saved, leaving only 1,000 of there number. When asked how the Emperor had known to name them a thousand sons years before he stated that there are no coincidences.

 

Like that story the watchers on Caliban could have been just waiting. Waiting for their creator to arrive.

 

Xenos? Yes, u could call them that.

 

Of course they could really be xenos and have found the Lion, but there is a problem. Unless they are of different minds, the book legion would have them want the DA to fail and for chaos to win. If that was the case I can't see how they are achieving that by assisting the DA.

 

Anyway... I still think my theory holds.

[syddraf]

At the heart of it, the warp is a sea of psychic energy, it is at this point in history that it is filled with beings of ill will, but at some point it was a place of dreams, hopes and maybe love, yes there has always been the bad side of it, any place needs a balance of good and evil.

 

Your point of them being made of the stuff of the warp makes them demons seems base of the fact that there is only bad in the warp. At some point I like to think the warp was also the place of protectors, angels, the difference between the two is their intent, to harm or help.

[Apahllo]

 

Demons? No. It's been said in the HH books that the primarchs themselves are more than a collection of super enhanced DNA. They are connected to the warp. Aken from it. Read the thousand sons. Not everything from the warp is evil. The Emperor himself is of the warp. A collection of souls of ancient shamans that once flowed through it dying and being reborn over and over. No, the warp is not evil, only home to some creatures that are. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to be part of the lion. A failsafe that protects him. Nurtures him. Comforts him. They are the calm unconscious uncontrolable part of him. Soothing the dark chaotic part of him. If only curze was so lucky. In the thousand sons arihman tells a story of how his legion was decimated by a faulty genestock and with the intervention of Magnus they were saved, leaving only 1,000 of there number. When asked how the Emperor had known to name them a thousand sons years before he stated that there are no coincidences. Like that story the watchers on Caliban could have been just waiting. Waiting for their creator to arrive. Xenos? Yes, u could call them that. Of course they could really be xenos and have found the Lion, but there is a problem. Unless they are of different minds, the book legion would have them want the DA to fail and for chaos to win. If that was the case I can't see how they are achieving that by assisting the DA.Anyway... I still think my theory holds.

As I understand it(but how can one understand the warp), the warp is the emotions of the universe made manifest in a different realm of being. Magnus and a few other in the HH book 1k sons have an optimists view of these emotions, making comparisons to the bolter, power is only as 'bad' as the one who wields it. But ultimately this view is naive because the primordial annihilator/creator is actually bent on destroying all living things and he is the one who gives Magnus the power to save his legion of sorcerers and break the elder webway gates under that great mountain. Based on the setting of 40k(humanities perspective) this makes the primordial evil. Magnus claims that power is only power but you see him taking it from the warp and it causing evil in allowing him to tear the primarchs apart, which is surely the aim or chaos(primordial annihilator) before Horus falls. Then Horus becomes their champion and you all know the rest.

 

My point being that power is evil, ever heard the saying 'power corrupts'. Magnus thought the power was only just power but ultimately it proves to be the end of the crusade and the living emperor.

 

 

 

But this view of the watchers as the lions will to survive made manifest is the coolest thing since sliced bread. Seriously, who ever came up with idea, I love you. I really want to hear more about the philosophies behind this idea because I think it's spot on, like 10/10. And someone trying to debunk it by saying the watchers declare themselves xenos but if they are half the beings the fluff makes them out to be then they knew zahriel* (whatever that Libby's name is) was evil and lied to him about who they are to conceal the truth about el Johnson's power...

[syddraf]

Secrets and half truths is why I love Dark Angel lore.

 

Love the idea of the watchers waiting of their creator. This could be further expanded to include the origin story of the emperor, specifically the part about the great shamans merging themself together, cloning himself could have passed on a spirit of a shaman who had a vision about be alone in a dark forest as a child, he could have dreamt his future watcher in the dark into being, to wait for his arrival.

 

Screw black library, we as a forum come up with better stories

[Aegnor]

@TATypher - I think we can take it as read that the members of the Cabal from Legion do not speak for or represent their races as an entirety. Certainly Eldrad and other Eldar disagree with Slau Dar the Eldar autarch from the Cabal. No reason to assume some Watchers might disagree with what those in Caliban were doing.

 

I think they're xenos. I don't know whether that is what the DA themselves believe them to be. I'm a little disappointed that the new codex seems to suggest they are something seen by senior DAs to the point they are considered unremarkable, but then I don't think I ever liked Azrael having one carry his helmet. I'd like it if they were mire mysterious and biddable even to members of the Deathwing.

 

As for DA "tolerating" them (I don't think it's clear they could harm or drive away the Watchers) while being crazy xenophobic - well all good obsessive pathological hatreds of others have their roots in self-loathing, something the DA know better than anyone.

[[TA]Typher]

Well I'm not sure if I'm the only one that has thought that the watchers were part of El'jonson psyche over the years, so I'll not say 'you're welcome' just yet. After reading Lord of the flies as a kid it just seemed to click that the watchers and the Lion were connected.

 

As for the warp I don't feel it is evil, in fact it's my understanding that it only recently (used in cosmic terms) became as dangerous as it is, with the birth of the four powers. Even the Emperor draws his power from it, and althought it could be argued that he isn't completely good, it's clear that he isn't evil like the four major forces of the warp. So, it has to be said that the warp isn't wholy evil. And, if that is the case then that would leave room for creatures like the watchers.

 

Calling them demons would indicate that the Emperor is one too, or at least some more powerful version of one. Not to mention that in the warhammer world people's souls seem to go into the warp when they die. Again, this would indicate there is much more of a sliding scale regarding the intent of the warp as a whole. Sure evil things dwell in the shallows of it, like sharks along the coastline, but deep in there has to be something more or else the system wouldn't work. Of course when I say 'shallows' i mean something so vast that a mortal couldn't comprehend it.

 

That's my theory about the warp anyway.

 

Back to the watchers.. I could see them coming to the Lion. A young boy, feral and unkempt. He hides in the shadows of a tree and watches men ride past him for the first time. They look like him, or at least like the reflection he has seen in the murder-pools where he sometimes drinks from. He could kill them he thinks. Just jump down there and rip them to shreds. His instincts tell him to do it, that the act will help him survive, feed him, give him weapons of some sort. He tenses as the chemicals in his bloodstream start pumping. His body preparing itself for it's course. The pathways blaze to life in his mind. quickly he eliminates the worst avenues and focuses on the clearer ones. Set, his eyes scowl and he readies himself for action.

 

But them they come. Silent and seemingly from no where. He doesnt turn to watch them, he had given up on trying to figure them out long ago. They whisper to him, like before. With voices quiet and soothing they trigger some deep calming mechanic in him. Without thinking he exhales deeply and the force of action that had been exposed, bare before him evaporates. A new course is set for him. They tell him what must be done, what should be done. His fear is washed away by their presents. Unconscously he nods and jumps down from the tree in front of the approaching men, not realizing that he had been talking to himself the whole time.

 

:)

[Brother Immolator]

And what about the fact that have been ingrained on Calibanite folk lore far before the Lion then?

Also its not like while you are walking down a corridor in the Rock you are going to bump on a watcher. Those things appear only to the most trusted members of the chapter.

 

And even if one did happen to bump to one, the explanation is easy: Its just a funky servitor brother!

[Arioch]

The watchers are a cabal of ancient origin, watching over the trapped demonic being in Calibans core. They have great psychic powers, so its not a question of the Dark Angels tolerating the watchers, more a question of the watchers tolerating the DA.

Remember, that only the watchers can deem a marine worthy for the title of Supreme Grand Master, so they are in no way insignificant. I guess they at some point recognised the Dark Angels as a usefull ally in their fight against chaos.

I´ll recommend "Decent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" where it is all explained. Good books to

[Aegnor]

Arioch - what's the source for it being the Watchers who select the Supreme Grand Master? No doubting you, just managed to miss/gloss that to date.

[Valkyrion]

I don't have the codex to hand, but isn't there a bit that whoever is chosen to be SGM goes deep into the rock and might never be seen again? If so, then this might insinuate watcher involvement.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I don't have the codex to hand, but isn't there a bit that whoever is chosen to be SGM goes deep into the rock and might never be seen again? If so, then this might insinuate watcher involvement.

 

There is definetly some involvement, after all, someones got to tell him about Luther. And, if he cannot handle that truth...then I suppose they may decide its easier to bump him of than explain why he should not be the SGM...

[Azoriel]

From Azrael's entry in the current codex:

 

When the old Supreme Grand Master dies, his choice of successor is named and ceremonially presented with the panoply of the rank. Accompanied by the Inner Circle, he descends into ever deeper levels of the Rock, the Keeper of the Keys unlocking each adamantium door until the domed Chamber of Passageways is reached. From out of the shadows glide the mysterious Watchers in the Dark, to present the Supreme Grand Master with the Lion Helm and the Sword of Secrets. With these powerful icons of the Chapter, the new Supreme Grand Master is led down long hallways by the Watchers in the Dark until, at last, they come to the Arch of Truth.  Alone, the Supreme Grand Master must enter, and on rare occasions the aspirant does not return: an unspoken test determines his resolve and his suitability for the role, and only if he is approved by the Watchers in the Dark will he be presented as Supreme Grand Master to the gathered Dark Angels brethren above. Amidst many vows and hymnals, the honorific title of Keeper of the Truth is bestowed, and the new Supreme Grand Master dons the Lion Helm and receives the silent salute of his entire Chapter.

 

And I dunno about the Watchers only appearing to certain people - they only elect to follow certain people, certainly, but I think anyone can see them.  Elsewise, people would be asking why the Lion Helm and Perfidious Relics just seem to float around of their own accord.

[Upstartes]

Thinking about Dark Angels accepting the idea of potentially Xenos watchers, there's nothing to say that when they first made themselves known that the DA didn't try to cleanse the Rock of their presence. Being as they are nigh indestructible, I could totally see this brief period of time where the DA struggle fruitlessly to get rid of them, but finally just accept that they are there to stay. And then, over time, they come to see them as something different, not "alien" in the way they think of it. And thus, the current relationship is born.

 

Great thread, by the way. Thanks for all the responses. I may have to check out Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels.

[Bryan Blaire]

I will add that if anyone wants to argue about the nature of the Warp, that's fine. However, the current 40K rule book specifically states (this is not a quote, but you can find something very similar in the book, I'll have to get the page reference later) that you can call the abilities of the psychic anything flowery you want to disguise its nature, but it's all sorcery. The "most perfect" daemon hunters themselves use a blood magic enhanced ritual to combat this evil, effectively fighting fire with fire. Yes, the Emperor and Primarchs are inherently connected to the Warp, and their powers are not pure things, per the current fluff authors of the main rule book. It may not be evilly intended, but neither was Zahariel when the Watchers met him. However, they themselves describe him as "tainted" (which is kinda cute in a megalomaniacal way, all things considered, because by that same train of thought, if their power comes from the same wellspring, then they would be as well).

 

To me, it's all part of the grim darkness of the universe: the very power to destroy the ultimate predators of humanity, the one thing that it really seems that humans need most, by its very nature and use causes a taint. That was the real beauty of the Imperial Truth, it appears it was humanity's only real defense against the true darkness in the universe, but the Imperium has turned away from this an embraced, at least in part, the very essence of that which has sought to destroy or enslave them the whole time, and even while unseen/rumored, the Imperium calls the penultimate wielders of these powers "heroes."

[syddraf]

But that's the point about the warp I'm been making, it's an ocean, with may sources/wellsprings, yes the warp as a whole is vile, corrupt, but there could be pure sources in it, the emperor's light surely is one, beings so powerful from birth again good or bad, could also be seen as a source. These beings born with strong links to the warp, never having to train in finding this power, could be a pure source, energy flowing from them freely, beacons in the warp, yes they would be targets to the evils more so than a normal psychic, who borrow their powers.

[Aegnor]

Thanks Azoriel and others. Somehow that just hadn't sunk in.