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BL needs to get back on the right track with HH. Discuss?


Týr

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I base this on a topic I saw in a HH group on facebook.

 

A guy pointed out that not so long ago a HH release was a special thing that happend a few times a year and in a book format (paperback).

Now we see a HH release very often and in a gazillion formats. paper novek, Ebook, short story, novella, giant 'trade paperback' novels and audio dramas. 

I really love the series, but I can no longer keep up. I'm a poor student so I cannot afford to buy all these stories they spam out to milk me for my last money. 

In the begining it was cool to see a new book announced, wait a few months, preorder it and get it to an affordable price. Now you get the offer to buy a too expensive pre-preorder copy, or sit around and try to avoid spoilers for three months. It's just not cool against loyal fans. 

 

And before the series was just the main books. Then came a few audio dramas which was okay because they weren't essentiel but more built-ups for the new book. But then came the garro storyline in audio dramas (haven't followed this because they are too expensive).

Since it has exploded with HH releases being pumped out making it very hard to navigate.

 

IMO Black Library needs to get the HH series back to track with good books every few months. They need to put their hipster tendensices aside for a moment and concentrate on making a good series for everyone. Its so sad they got $$$ and £££ stuck in their eyes when they for years did such a great job.

 

 

(this post is up for editing if I see stuff that needs to be corrected or if anything else comes to my mind) 

Completely agree...Not to mention limited time novellas (128 pages???) with a price of *******.....Not cool GW....

Don't get me wrong I would give my soul for another book like "a TS" and "PB"...but these hardbacks (which are cool) and short audios are skinning me alive....

 

IMHO first HH trilogy would be forever unique....

Although I agree with you that keeping track of all the details of the HH is increasingly more difficult and expensive, I have to say I kind of like all the different formats. For one thing I beleive that the different formats of the same product are not a problem at all. Just choose the one you like (be that ebook, paperback, harback, audio or whatever) and you'll be fine. Personally I primarily do e-books as they are cheaper, I download them instantly (no mail delivery) and are waaaay easier for searching cross-references and such.

 

Where the problem starts imo is the audio dramas and, more importantly, the LE (overpriced) novellas that create a plethora of sources and make it difficult to keep up. Here I'd agree that although the LE novellas are not supposed to cover vital aspects of the Heresy it's still material that all HH fans would ideally like to read and it's a shame to be so expensive and available for only such a short time...

Although I agree with you that keeping track of all the details of the HH is increasingly more difficult and expensive, I have to say I kind of like all the different formats. For one thing I beleive that the different formats of the same product are not a problem at all. Just choose the one you like (be that ebook, paperback, harback, audio or whatever) and you'll be fine. Personally I primarily do e-books as they are cheaper, I download them instantly (no mail delivery) and are waaaay easier for searching cross-references and such.

 

Where the problem starts imo is the audio dramas and, more importantly, the LE (overpriced) novellas that create a plethora of sources and make it difficult to keep up. Here I'd agree that although the LE novellas are not supposed to cover vital aspects of the Heresy it's still material that all HH fans would ideally like to read and it's a shame to be so expensive and available for only such a short time...

 

I agree that it's good that you can choose which ever format best suits you. But the problem are they are not all available at the same time. First comes the expensive hardback with the stupid ridiculous cartoons, and first after three months do we have all format available. If they released normal paperback the same time as pre-preorder hardback then it would be a lot more fair, than have the guys with most money buy the books first. Then discuss them and the rest of us have to sit with fingers in our ears going 'lalalalalala can't hear your spoilers'. And by the time we are ready to join the discussion, the community have moved on the next book.

 

And I also agree that the audio dramas and overpriced limited edition stuff are the biggest problem for the series right now.

You got to be joking! Finally everyone has a number of books to choose from, and you're saying they should return to 4 books a year? I really really hope they will never listen to you guys, and I hope they will start writing for FB with the same speed.

^ IMHO quantity is watering down quality...Would you agree?

I myself like to take one HH damn "good book" and even re-read it , rather then paying for a 128 page bolter porn....with a hardcover and beautiful pictures :-)

^ IMHO quantity is watering down quality...Would you agree?

No, not really. There are good authors, and there are bad authors. There authors who can describe scenes and events better, and authors who are better at creating characters. Betrayer is a masterpiece of the same level as Flight of the Eisenshtein (I hate this name), while Descent of Angels and Deliverance Lost are both garbage, and they are separated by 10 books in between.

 

^ IMHO quantity is watering down quality...Would you agree?

No, not really. There are good authors, and there are bad authors. There authors who can describe scenes and events better, and authors who are better at creating characters. Betrayer is a masterpiece of the same level as Flight of the Eisenshtein (I hate this name), while Descent of Angels and Deliverance Lost are both garbage, and they are separated by 10 books in between.

Nope - there are good books, and there are bad books...Authors IMHO (when rushed ) can crap the book which started pretty well...

This is what I mean by "quantity is watering down quality"...I' myself enjoyed NL triology, first three books of the HH, and IMO the best books like "aTS" and "PB".....

I'm not a fan of the audio dramas - mainly because the first few I listened to all involved the same person providing a monologue unsure.png

I like the ebook shorts, but miss the ability to easily flick back to revisit previous scenes in longer ebooks that a paper version provides. However, its not usually an either/or. Whilst one may be realised before the other, all comes eventually to he who waits.

Having been a poor student (and even poorer person in employment) in my time, I sympathise with not having to cash to enjoy the full range of products on offer.

However, we can't really expect FW and HH to restrict releases to match the smallest pocket when they have the opportunity to follow the froth. Okay, so I know have the pennies to indulge, but I lend my books to others (usually getting them back - but that's another subject) and am delighted to see the HH theme being supported so well.

I certainly see no issue with quality. Some are better than others, but there's no evidence of a downward trend.

Regards,

^ IMHO quantity is watering down quality...Would you agree?

I myself like to take one HH damn "good book" and even re-read it , rather then paying for a 128 page bolter porn....with a hardcover and beautiful pictures :-)

 

Not according to the available evidence and series feedback, nope. Especially since the authors themselves aren't writing any more or less themselves; it's that more new blood is coming into the Heresy talent pool. In general, authors tend to be pretty uniform in their reviews - if they get good reviews, they keep getting them; if they get average reviews, they keep getting them. Nothing has changed in that regard since the Heresy started. There's more stuff out there to be reviewed, so more examples of good and bad reviews, but no evidence of quality slipping. Some of the most recent books have even been among the highest rated.

 

 

Lets not make the discussion about authors but keep the focus on BL and how they choose to publish/sell their stuff

 

On one hand, I have a lot of sympathy for those who dislike Format X or don't want to buy Limited Edition Y, and prefer to wait until it's out in traditional format. On the other hand, the book trade has ruthlessly, mercilessly tanked, and the shift to other formats (across the entire book industry) isn't entirely out of some high-larious "LOL MONEY" scheme. Plus, seeing as I'm a lifelong fan of IP franchises doing limited edition things (behold, my Resident Evil chainsaw controller...) I recognise I've got too much invested on both sides to really pick one. Especially when it's not really a battle that needs sides. The novellas and audio dramas are incredibly popular. That's another reason they get made. People want them. It's easy to look at indignant remarks online and forget the core truth, there. People do want them. The evidence is in the fact that people buy them.

 

I do my best to make all my audio dramas, short stories and novellas spice to the novels; hopefully interesting, maybe with a new perspective, but never essential. They have to be valuable in terms of being worth people buying (I don't want to rip anyone off, after all - I just want to tell a good story), but never essential to the story (I never want someone to really miss out just because my publishers released something I wrote in a new format).

 

It's a hard road to walk, which is why I end up doing less non-novel stuff than a lot of the other guys.

 

Nope - there are good books, and there are bad books...Authors IMHO (when rushed ) can crap the book which started pretty well...

This is what I mean by "quantity is watering down quality"...I' myself enjoyed NL triology, first three books of the HH, and IMO the best books like "aTS" and "PB".....

 

The problem with stuff like this is that it's baseless assumption. I can't think of any Heresy novels that were rushed, and it's never come up in any conversations with the other guys, or at any of the meetings. 

 

Actually, that's not true. I can think of one that was rushed, and it's one of the ones in your list of favourites. 

^ Dude IIRC even you said that sometime you get rushed by the deadline? (I could be wrong on this, 12 h of programming and reading daily did some damage on my brain)...

I mean I don't know, I really get the impression that sometimes culminations do get rushed...But this could be me and "me wanting a looooong story to last"...

I'm biased btw....

 

 

@AD-B; little off topic: Will Martryn Ellis narrate some future audio formats? I'mean do you know anything about that? Ty

^ Dude IIRC even you said that sometime you get rushed by the deadline?

I mean I don't know, I really get the impression that sometimes culminations do get rushed...But this could be me and "me wanting a looooong story to last"...

I'm biased btw....

 

Good question, dude. Your average 40K novel is contracted to be written in 4 months. That might sound harsh, but you'll find a lot of non-40K authors will write to about that timetable too, driven by their editors or the simple fact they're professional writers. It's not unusual for a professional author to write two books a year, saving up a backlog that pleases their publisher immensely.

 

When I talk about deadlines, I'm the exact opposite of "rushed", in that sense. I'm not going quicker, though my editors would love it if I was. I just mean the deadlines are coming (and often going) and I'm making note of them. I'm (unpleasantly) famous in the office for saying "Actually, it'll be even later, I want to rewrite these bits, sorry." Much of the reason there are so many new authors getting involved is because the five "core" authors constantly miss deadlines. Admittedly, it's me and Dan more than the others. And I will stay up for three days straight before the final, final, final deadline, but that's not to finish the last chapters. It's to go back and make sure Character X does Action Y in Chapter Four, or to completely change the internal monologue of Character Z throughout the novel because they're now too different from how I initially imagined them. Doing the last chapter on the last day sounds pretty exciting now that I think about it, but that's never had to happen, yet. (Thankfully...)

 

As I said, the average 40K novel takes about 4-5 months to write the first draft. The First Heretic took me about 8. Betrayer took me almost 10.

While I totally agree with OP I don't think BL will change that. There are money involved. People are willing to pay for all this stuff therefore BL is making even more of it. Demand and supply.

 

LE novellas are much to expensive.

I won't buy hardback novels because 20+ of my HH collection is a small cheap softback and I won't ruin it by adding something different (gold/bronze letters and BL logo are enough).

I don't have any device to read ebooks on but my PC and I can't read longer texts on PC, I struggle with some of the longer posts.

 

However I enjoy audiobooks, maybe not as much as paper copies but I'm fine with them.

 

^ IMHO quantity is watering down quality...Would you agree?

I myself like to take one HH damn "good book" and even re-read it , rather then paying for a 128 page bolter porn....with a hardcover and beautiful pictures :-)

 

Not according to the available evidence and series feedback, nope. Especially since the authors themselves aren't writing any more or less themselves; it's that more new blood is coming into the Heresy talent pool. In general, authors tend to be pretty uniform in their reviews - if they get good reviews, they keep getting them; if they get average reviews, they keep getting them. Nothing has changed in that regard since the Heresy started. There's more stuff out there to be reviewed, so more examples of good and bad reviews, but no evidence of quality slipping. Some of the most recent books have even been among the highest rated.

 

 

>Lets not make the discussion about authors but keep the focus on BL and how they choose to publish/sell their stuff

 

On one hand, I have a lot of sympathy for those who dislike Format X or don't want to buy Limited Edition Y, and prefer to wait until it's out in traditional format. On the other hand, the book trade has ruthlessly, mercilessly tanked, and the shift to other formats (across the entire book industry) isn't entirely out of some high-larious "LOL MONEY" scheme. Plus, seeing as I'm a lifelong fan of IP franchises doing limited edition things (behold, my Resident Evil chainsaw controller...) I recognise I've got too much invested on both sides to really pick one. Especially when it's not really a battle that needs sides. The novellas and audio dramas are incredibly popular. That's another reason they get made. People want them. It's easy to look at indignant remarks online and forget the core truth, there. People do want them. The evidence is in the fact that people buy them.

 

I do my best to make all my audio dramas, short stories and novellas spice to the novels; hopefully interesting, maybe with a new perspective, but never essential. They have to be valuable in terms of being worth people buying (I don't want to rip anyone off, after all - I just want to tell a good story), but never essential to the story (I never want someone to really miss out just because my publishers released something I wrote in a new format).

 

It's a hard road to walk, which is why I end up doing less non-novel stuff than a lot of the other guys.

 

Nope - there are good books, and there are bad books...Authors IMHO (when rushed ) can crap the book which started pretty well...

This is what I mean by "quantity is watering down quality"...I' myself enjoyed NL triology, first three books of the HH, and IMO the best books like "aTS" and "PB".....

 

The problem with stuff like this is that it's baseless assumption. I can't think of any Heresy novels that were rushed, and it's never come up in any conversations with the other guys, or at any of the meetings. 

 

Actually, that's not true. I can think of one that was rushed, and it's one of the ones in your list of favourites. 

 

 

I hear you and agree with you for the most part.

The 'LOL MONEY' things comes into play, I think, when you see alot of single short stories. THey used to be collected and released together in a book dedicated to short stories, but now it seems, that as soon an author have a story it's fired at the consumer instantly. And It's all good that audio books are stuff people want, and it's all good that BL makes them. 

The thing where I say stop is that I do not get a choice. All these small stories (that I really really want to read) is not put together and sold as a book besides the single story as a audio or other format (at least not for a very long time). 

I feels very forced on me that I cannot have the choice. It's 'get this single short story in some non book format and pay a lot for it, or wait a veeery long time before you perhaps get a chance to buy it in book format'.

If only you had a choice to get these stories in book format. One could immagine BL collecting all these small releases by the end of the year in one book for those who do not want to pay a lot for the other formats. That would be totally fine with me.

Peter: I'll ask about the Martyn Ellis thing, and get back to you. I don't know much (read: anything) about the audio drama side of things.

 

 

I hear you and agree with you for the most part.

The 'LOL MONEY' things comes into play, I think, when you see alot of single short stories. THey used to be collected and released together in a book dedicated to short stories, but now it seems, that as soon an author have a story it's fired at the consumer instantly. And It's all good that audio books are stuff people want, and it's all good that BL makes them. 

The thing where I say stop is that I do not get a choice. All these small stories (that I really really want to read) is not put together and sold as a book besides the single story as a audio or other format (at least not for a very long time). 

I feels very forced on me that I cannot have the choice. It's 'get this single short story in some non book format and pay a lot for it, or wait a veeery long time before you perhaps get a chance to buy it in book format'.

If only you had a choice to get these stories in book format. One could immagine BL collecting all these small releases by the end of the year in one book for those who do not want to pay a lot for the other formats. That would be totally fine with me.

 

For really reals. I definitely symapthise with every viewpoint on this, because I share a little of all of them. On the plus side, Black Library isn't blind to the fans' perspectives. It's one of the reasons why they're always trying new stuff. The Limited Edition novellas changed format completely, from limited print runs to unlimited ones, available over a certain span of time instead. Audio dramas come out in various e-formats and anthologies faster than they otherwise would... and so on. 

 

I'm not a Business Guy, and I don't want to speak for the Business Guys/Girls, I just wanted to chime in and say that the publishing folks in the ivory tower do notice people's feedback like this, and it's one of the things that keeps them experimenting. In terms of personal investment, I do my best not to be an [iNSERT CURSE WORD HERE] about what I write in 'limited availability' formats.

@AD-B ty- really, really ty...Man he has such a power of narration,when listening his voice I felt like I was in the theatre +1...

If I had a a studio and a load of money I would pay him any price to narrate my favorite books.....And this is like my only dream in life....

A few notes from someone who has dealt with the publishing business from the opposite side as A-D-B (valuation of them as ongoing businesses from an investing/trading perspective):

 

1 - Having things available in e-book, print, and audio formats is an exceptionally good step for BL. There is a persistent shift towards non-print media that will only grow over time, as it's the younger demographics who are deeper into the non-paper side of things. It's exceptionally important that companies get this right, and I'd rather see BL experimenting with it (I personally think they don't have pricing quite right for the e-books on initial release yet, because they are charging near hardback prices for them and that usually ends poorly, but I strongly support the formats and attempt). Those that don't will become dinosaurs (and then get killed by Vulkan with a hammer?).

 

2 - The novella thing... I get that everyone might not love them, but if it makes money, it makes money. From an investor perspective, it's a high return, low cost product. There's nothing wrong with that as long as BL is careful not to put the key/integral plot points into the limited edition, limited availability things (as then it looks like a blatant money grab and will alienate your readers). They also need to keep the quality high. As it currently stands I think they get that balance right more often than wrong.

 

3 - Some of the core problems with BL have not changed: poor proofreading, amateurish organization of the website, and distribution. This is typical of a small player in the publishing world (even GW proper struggles with these issues, and GW itself is a small company in the grand sense of the thing). However, being able to address these in a meaningful way would help with the people who feel that the website is cluttered and the HH stuff is getting harder to follow. It is, because the dissemination of information worked, despite being disorganized, when there was less information, but when wallpapers, audio books, short e-stories, and actual books are all jammed together in one of those clusterthingies in the new release page, it's a lot harder to know what is going on. That should be fixed.

 

4 - In a general sense, more production means you have to scale up your production capacity. In the case of a publisher, this means more authors (as was already pointed out in this thread). That's a good thing in the long run, and reduces key person risk for BL while giving fans a wider variety of options, as long as quality remains high. If BL is vigilant about ushering in good new authors (for instance, Rob Sanders) while ushering out authors who did a poor job (Mike Lee, you are probably a great guy, but that was not a good book) from the HH series, this should pay off for both BL and the fans.

 

5 - There needs to be more clarity from BL. If they are going to do stories only in one-off format only from now on, say so. If they intend to later collect those stories, say so. If you are clear about releasing stories now, but collecting them later, then you can have consumers price discriminate (in the economic sense, not the "screw you sense") based on if it's more important to have it immediately, or have it cheaply, and you will give both types the product they most want. If you only intend to release them now, at least you get the former and maybe a few of the latter type won't wait and will buy (though more likely, you just lose them as customers, based on virtually every other business that uses these models). I genuinely believe a bit more clarity on what they intend to produce, in what formats, and a clear statement on practices from BL (updated as they change) addressed to the fans would be very, very valuable.

I think the only thing I'm not liking is that we are seeing so many stories just reprinted to do nothing more than take up space. For example, Shadows of Treachery gets published. Finally some audiodramas get published in a written format; The Dark King, The Lightning Tower and Raven's Flight. But then you turn right around and The Scripts anthology is published which has those three stories, Butcher's Nails and the first two Garro audiodramas IIRC. Problem is that I broke down and finally bought the Nails CD. So basically, I'm paying twenty bucks to get two new stories while repurchasing four more. I'd rather just pay the twenty bucks to get both CDs just so I don't have to rebuy.

 

But then there's the Angron anthology. They're going to reprint every short story that features Amgron with two more new stories. I already own most of those stories. I would love to just buy the ebooks of those two short stories. But because I'm restricting myself to a cash only diet, I can't get those two stories because the only way I can get them for cash is by buying the entire book.

 

Personally, I don't see the Horus Heresy as being bogged down by having more publications although I do wish those publications were spread out throughout the various formats in a more fluid fashion than "Format A here. Two years down the road, Format B here in two different publications back-to-back. Eh, I don't think we need to publish it in Format C."

 

It just makes everything so.......jarring. And then the recycling. Yes, it is nice to categorize everything. There might be someone who only wants to read about Angron. That anthology will be perfect for that person alongside a copy of Betrayer. But to someone who already owns most of those stories, it becomes a question of whether or not they value getting their hands on two short stories that may or may not be up to par worth buying stories they already have, if they cannot for some reason or another buy it on another format. I guess what I'm saying is, don't mix the new stories with recycled stories.

 

Do like "This is everything of Angron we have published already. Anthology B is a whole bunch of new stories featuring Angron." I don't know. Just the ramblings of an addicted reader.

I love the audio books/dramas.

 

I don't have as much time for reading as I'd like but I listen to audio books in the car. I think that generally the narrators have been great. I'm on the last disc of Prospero Burns and the narrator is fantastic. He does lots of distinctive and characterful voices - I can easily tell the gruff Godsmote from the eerie Aun Hellwinter and the menacing Ogvai.

 

Having said that, I did like Butchers Nails and Garro:Sword Of Truth which were actual dramas with several cast members.

 

The limited edition material is a real pain though, I hate that.

Now that we're talking about BL and the HH...I've just entered the site and found that Know No Fear has a hardback edition already (announced today). Does anyone know why they make the HB edition of that novel before the hardback edition of: Descent of Angels, Legion, Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum, Fallen Angels, A Thousand Sons, Nemesis, The First Heretic, Prospero Burns, The Outcast Dead, Deliverance Lost and Fear To Tread?? I know that Angel Exterminatus and Betrayer get the HB because were new novels, then they started with Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames, next Flight of the Eisenstein and Fulgrim, so why KNF now?? Is there an order of publishing or is a random thing? 

I can deal with the hardback for 3 months followed by the $8 paperback/ebook.  Yeah it sucks having to wait that long tonot pay double the price, but it is what it is.

 

What pisses me off to no extent are the $50 limited edition novellas that they keep churning out.  Not only are these overpriced, but group a bunch of them together and they could essentially be the short stories similar to the Tales of Heresy anthology that was a normal release in the HH series. 

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