Noble Night Lords?

[Caran Lyg]

Hey all, 

 

I've been pondering a new army lately, and I really want to do something different in pre-heresy. I like the open endedness and diversity in 30k and with the great background provided by Betrayal (and I'm sure the upcoming Massacre) we have a lot of info for Legions previously unavailable. I wanted something fast, greasy, and generally mean so I've been looking at White Scars and Night Lords, but the latter provide me with some problems. I like playing good guys. I like the Imperium (30k at least) and I like the nobility we see in the Legions, especially the ones we know will eventually turn. That complexity makes the background and, to me at least, the hobby much more fulfilling. 

 

The Night Lords are an odd bird in this, as we're generally led to believe that they were always murders and rapists and were always going to be monsters, but I think that's a little two dimensional. My question: Are "noble Night Lords" possible? Here are my thoughts:

 

First, not all the marines come from the sociopath factory that is Nostramo. There are (probably) a goodly number of Terrans, and I'm sure they recruited on other worlds before the discovery of Kurze a la Centurion Shabran Darr of the World Eaters. I understand the whole characteristics of the primarch "encoded" in the geneseed bit, but I feel that only goes so far. Second, it may be inferred that the Night Lord vets may have been "corrupted" by Kurze's influence but when we know that Legions are spread across the galaxy and may not see their liege lord for decades at a time.

 

Given the seemingly built-in heroism, traditionalism, and high mindedness possessed of other Legions and especially Terran vets (looking at Garro) I feel heroic Night Lords may be possible. But I'm really keen to hear some other ideas. I know Night Lords are rather popular, so I look forward to opinions and speculation of everyone's favorite legion of grimdark space Batmen. 

 

Cheers

[Kol Saresk]

While a rarity, I would definitely say it is a possibility. After all, we did have Sevatar, a Night Lord who displayed loyalty(something that some people would consider a form of honor or nobility) and that was something most Night Lords thought didn't exist in their Legion.

[Sgt.Sangha]

Also wasnt Zho Sahaal a terran as well? Although I doubt we will ever hear much about him ever again, he might just be a person mentioned in passing. Although I also think that his characteristics would be what loyal Night Lords are like. Dour, pragmatic and very grim. prehaps they would not be as murderous as their Nostromus counterparts. Then again we can ask ADB to illuminate us to how he may perceive them. You could also look at Malcharion sp? as an example of how loyalist versions may be. 

[Kol Saresk]

Zso Sahaal was........... well he seemed to have a bit of a severe arrogant streak IIRC. And while he was a Terran and loyal to his idea of the Night Haunter, there was actually very little to distinguish himself from the other Night Lords other than he avoids Chaos and all its myriad forms in the most extreme sense. At least, that's the impression that I am remembering at the moment and more importantly, it is my impression so it may not be shared by everyone.

[Jareddm]

Wasn't there a period when Nostramo was first starting to produce marines that the rumors and legends of Curze was producing straight-laced marines?  That it was only after the legions left that the planet started to regress and the quality of marines fell?  Might a marine from that first group still be in the legion by the time of Istvaan?

[Kol Saresk]

Well since there were Terrans still in the Legion, yes it is entirely possible. The problem is that looking at all the Terrans shown(I believe this being the optimum word) they seemed to have rather acclimated to the Heresy-era Night Lords. Of course, that is assuming that they acclimated and that the Night Lords as a Legion were not made up of criminals and/or violently oriented individuals.

[Sgt.Sangha]

True about Sahaal he was an arrogant one, and it mentioned that he sort of started up the raptor program in the Night Lords as well. But Kol what do you think of the other night lords how do you think they were when they first got their Primarch?

[Kol Saresk]

When they first got him? My personal opinion is that they were probably something similar to the World Eaters. They were warriors who had their own traditions and they kept to themselves. And when they found Curze, they sought to emulate their father in all things, such as the wearing of terror marks and using tactics of fear to subdue their enemies. And when Nostramans started entering the Legion, they incorporated the gangland customs into their own, not really thinking anything of it, that their honor would protect them from a fall from grace.

 

But somewhere down the line, that fall from grace is exactly what happened. Maybe their honor eventually turned into the criminal's "honor" of "snitches get stitches" and as such, had none left to impugn by slaughtering a population there, carving up a skinning pit here, etc.

 

Maybe. It's all a matter of conjecture since there's so little to go on. Who knows, BL just might right it that the Night Lords were a penal legion of sorts.

[Caran Lyg]

I'm really anxious for Massacre so we can finally get a look at the origins of the Night Lords and how the Terran vets meshed with the Haunter. Kol, I think your connection between the Night Lords and the War Hounds/World Eaters is probably spot on. There was probably a bit of reluctance at first, but of course they all want to be like their dad. 

 

I keep thinking of Talos' musings on his childhood on Nostramo during Blood Reaver. I recall his mother saying that she wanted him to excel so he would be accepted into the Legion which indicates that when they arrived at Nostramo and perhaps for a time after the Night Lords were reasonably well regarded. Also mentioned in this scene was that the Night Lords have begun accepting members from gangs, though this was not always the case. A really neat part, and perhaps my motivation for this whole line of thought, was at the end of that chapter when Talos and Octavia are chatting and Talos says something like "I wanted to be a hero, and look how that turned out". Now this may just be the standard Night Lord black humor but I like to interpret it (and perhaps Talos' character in a broad way) as being in earnest. He wanted to be a real hero of the Imperium, an Angel of Death, and it all got a little mucked up. I think that provides some evidence for at least better Night Lords, if not "good guys" out right. 

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Hi Caran,

 

I think your view sits comfortably with my reading of the Night Lords books: Soul Hunter, Void Stalker etc.

 

For the uninitiated, whilst set in 40k, it is but a few centuries since the heresy for the characters. So recommended reading for anyone into the HH :)

 

Regards,

[Hyaenidae]

Funny, I had thought about this a while ago myself. Usually, when I think, "Noble Night Lord", I think of Mercutian. There was a hint of nobility to his ways, whether it was his willingness to self-sacrifice for his brothers, his calm in the face of arrogance (such as he and Xarl's talk in the burning ruins of the Marines Errant's Monestary), even how he would whisper his cursing, as if he was afraid to offend. Blended into that was his wholehearted belief that the Night Lords were doing wht was neccessary to secure the Imperium, and were the judge / jury / executioners the Emperor needed. Whether there was truth to this could be debated until the end of time, but he believed. He had, in a twisted way, faith. He felt betrayed and wronged when the Emperor said "What the hell are you psycho's doing?!?"

 

I'd say, there's always a possiblity. I doubt an entire Company would act like this, but it would make sense for the Captain of the company to surround himself with as many like minded individuals he could find.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

The problem is what one means by 'nobility', i.e. there's a difference between the protochivalric values of a twelfth century 'knight' and those of a Victorian English gentleman, but both groups seemed to be able to reconcile the exploitation of their fellow man through the concept of 'stewardship', that is to say, responsibility for sustaining a system.

 

For a NL stewardship of the people requires the use of fear. The production of fear is therefore a noble attribute for them, but self sacrifice in certain circumstances might be seen as a lack of responsibility. A dead marine cannot fulfil their duty to serve, so there must be a payoff.

 

I do agree that the Captain will have a significant influence on the 'character' of their command, especially if they represented/displayed qualities that their men aspired to achieve/valued.

[Grimdarkness]

Did these noble marines survive. All the traitor legions purged the "loyal" element's of there legion's before throwing in with horus.

That would be my biggest hurdle to get over.

[Caran Lyg]

@Spiritwolf, I agree that notions of nobility are definitely varied, and in the Imperium you really have to take any kind of noble ideals with a grain of salt seeing as how even in the 31st millennium when things are arguably "more" tolerant you still have planetary exterminations, slavery, etc. IMO fitting that into the Night Lords is a lot like fitting it into, perhaps, the Death Guard. Much like Mortarion's Legion these are astartes who feel they have a dirty job to do and are willing to use any tool, even possibly unsavory ones. Of course, some of them eventually learn to take their own kind of pride in these tactics, the feeling of the hunter or the righteous executioner. 

 

I'm sure that these guys would have been a minority, especially as the Crusade rolled into the Heresy era. And, as Grimdarkness points out, they totally would have been purged had they been at Istvaan. If I do end up creating this force, it will probably be early Crusade era (like, right after they found Kurze) or possibly one of the many scattered battlegroups in some Expeditionary Fleet that gets rather forgotten. 

[Kol Saresk]

Did these noble marines survive. All the traitor legions purged the "loyal" element's of there legion's before throwing in with horus.

That would be my biggest hurdle to get over.

Well in Prince of Crows, Curze laughed at the prospect of purging his ranks of those who were not loyal to him because he didn't know where he would need to begin.

 

Of course, the assumption is that because most of the Night Lords were loyal to themselves. But it is possible that even within the Night Lords there was a small knot of Loyalists who slipped away in the confusion of Istvaan V or the Thramas Crusade as one of many "lost to the warp" or "assumed destroyed on patrol." Or something like that.

[Balthamal]

If any "loyalists" were to slip away as you put it, it would have occured after the Night Haunter attacked Dorn and fled with his Legion. From various bits and pieces it appears that there was virtually no dissent when it came to destroying Nostrama, so whether there were any loyalists present or if they simply agreed with the decision to exterminate their world is up for debate. Personally, I would hold off until Massacre comes around since it's an open secret that the Night Lords are one of the Legions covered in part one. For myself I'm hoping to manage to have a chat with Alan Bligh at Games Day about it (fingers crossed)

[Kol Saresk]

I'm viewing the release of Massacre with equal parts dread and anticipation as far as the fluff is considered. Mostly it runs along the lines of "What are they going to do with my Night Lords?!?!?!?!"

[Balthamal]

I think Betrayal showed us that Alan Bligh has a good grip on things in terms of Warhammer 30k and we won't see some of the worthless fluff penned by certain people in games development.

 

Ideally, knowing that he's pally with ADB, you'd hope he'd run a few ideas by him and get some extra perspecitve etc.

 

I'm sure more info will be forthcoming over the next few months, I'm just hoping i'll get the chance to paw through it at GD

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Oh no, if A.D-B has any influence, we're all scuppered

[Kol Saresk]

Well after seeing small things like the Catulan Reaver Squad getting blown into a full Company and Mortarion's bodyguard going from a pair to a bigger number. Basically, yes he does put out some good things but other things seem to get taken and rebuilt to his standards just so it can be put on the tabletop. And yes, it might be nitpicking but when there seems to be a habit of small details being sacrificed to make bigger selling points...... Well I'm just worried about which small detail is going to be made into a defining factor and I feel like I already know which one detail it's going to be.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Given the Reavers were commanded by a Captain from the get go, I already thought there was more than just the ten/twenty of them. However, maybe I misunderstood at the start.

 

Not sure on the original wording on the Death Shroud. I recall there were always two with their Primarch, but don't recall there number being limited to two - again, I would need to revisit the early books.

 

Still, the HH fluff is an evolving beast. It was always pretty woolly, with lots of holes, but if anything, I feel the HH books are ever more sympathetic in their treatment of the traitor Legions and their Primarchs, as well as providing welcome depth across the board (can I possibly squeeze any more metaphors in there!)

[Kol Saresk]

Well with the Reavers, they were originally described as a squad. The Death Shroud were always described as being a pair, but as you said nothing says they could be more so that is a loophole.

 

The difference between the two is that one was originally described as a squad that existed within the First Company while the other is just an inferred size limit.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I actually wonder if the Night Lords had a previous name, or were they just known as the 8th Legion. With regards to the loyalist elements of the legion, I always thought that as recruitment became more selective towards Nostromo the few criminals that probably slipped through in the beginning would have begun recruiting more and more from the gangs they knew about out of familiarity. That would make the legion more likely to turn as a whole and have less attachment to the Imperium proper. 

Also Kol I think we might be on the same page with what might happen with regards to units...I have a feeling the original raptors are about to make an appearance in a new form on the table top, mostly likely armed with lightening claws or some sort of variant. Plus Terminator squads known as the Altramentar as another elite unit. what is your take?

[Caran Lyg]

Wow, lots of really great thoughts. I think it's worth noting, as many have, that the Night Lords' turn follows a path independent of the other Traitor Legions and as such should be thought of differently. I also agree with Kol that a full on purge may have been unlikely, though as has also been mentioned it's not entirely out of the question in a group known for selective loyalty, tactical cowardice, and with a reputation as being "murderers" rather than "soldiers". Sevetar seemed fine with killing some of the Chiroptera so it's probably pretty situational.

 

I think that if Night Lords get a cool special unit in Massacre (and why wouldn't they?) it'll either be a Raptors Elite, a new Fast Attack, or some form of fear mongering Seekers.

 

As to Death Shroud, I think the idea that there are only two might be a misunderstanding. I don't know the exact wording from their first appearance, but I have to believe that it's more like "there are always two within 49 paces of Mortarion" rather than "there are only two, and they are always within 49 paces of Mortarion". As I said, I do not recall exactly, nor do I have the book on hand, but I feel like that's a reasonable thought process.

 

Great to see so much discussion! It's giving me a lot of great ideas and enthusiasm for starting this!

[Daemon2027]

I have been thinking about the Nigh Lords a lot recently as they are one (of several) heresy era legions I'm tempted by. The Night Lords will be as noble as any other legion, but at the same time they wish to be like there Primarch. So they see the (excessive) use of fear, such as death, decimation (ok I don't know if they do this but I think they would) of populations (and allied army units?), leaving mutalated enemy bodies as being like their 'father'. Unfortunately, as the legion is filled with sadists this tendency becomes more extreme. Also, Cruze, who is disgusted with this new recruits, becomes more extreme in his actions, and particularly his past time. However, many of he characters in the legion see this as a madness, suggesting they don't agree, hinting that there is a noble spirit in there somewhere. But like the World Eaters, they would defend their Primarch to the end, no matter what he does. TBH this could be interpreted as noble, although in a twisted sence.

 

I'm looking forward to any NL HH book as I would like to see them before the bitterness of the defeat of the traitors and assignation of Cruze, compleatly takes over.