Noble Night Lords?

[Kol Saresk]

That would actually be nice since the Atrementar are the Terminator elite and the Raptors are the Jump Pack Elite. I'd be okay with that. They are sub-companies of the First Company, but they are elites.

 

My fear is that the Raptors follow a size increase similar to the Catulan Reavers and go from Elites to somehow being very commonplace.

 

EDIT: @Caran, yeah as I said the Death Shroud weren't explicitly said to have a size limit like the Catulan Reavers were, but it did seem like there was an awful lot of talk about them being in pairs and considering their recruitment method, it just seems like it'd be easier to hide the identities of two individuals rather than say a hundred, or even a thousand.

[Sgt.Sangha]

were the raptors a sub company? I always thought they were loads of them in the legion and they were trained by Sahaal who then made them to swell the first company after the majority of the first company broke away when Sevatar was presumed killed in action. Likewise as we move forward we get huge amounts of raptor squads and units in chaos armies and they are described as being members of the assault companies and jump pack infantry dating back to the heresy and that they numbered in the hundreds... 

[Caran Lyg]

@Kol, I think it's been demonstrated that the Imperium has no problem making people, even large numbers of Astartes, disappear. I mean, they made two whole legions vanish, so a few hundred marines from otherwise depleted squads seems like a cakewalk.

@Sangha and Kol, I feel that this is actually a topic for some debate. The term "Raptor" may have originated with the Eighth and it certainly seems that way given Zso Sahaal's nom de guerre, and at various points the fluff has mentioned that the Raptor Cults may have originated with the Night Lords, but after the defeat at Terra, the scattering at Tsagualsa, and the few millenia until the present, who knows how other Raptors came to be?

EDIT: I feel that Raptors and Obliterators are similar in this aspect, as the fluff has them originating with a single legion (in this case the Iron Warriors) and now either part of other warbands for various reasons or that the term is now used in other ways. Just a follow up thought.

[Kol Saresk]

were the raptors a sub company? I always thought they were loads of them in the legion and they were trained by Sahaal who then made them to swell the first company after the majority of the first company broke away when Sevatar was presumed killed in action. Likewise as we move forward we get huge amounts of raptor squads and units in chaos armies and they are described as being members of the assault companies and jump pack infantry dating back to the heresy and that they numbered in the hundreds...

I can start with this one as it can hit both posts in one response.

 

According to the Codex, the Raptors is simply a name given to any Jump Trooper that is devoted to Chaos. Those of the original Traitor Legions were the elite of the elite and that was why they had received training with jump packs and that as they fell to Chaos, they became elitists, believing themselves to be superior to everyone else. And because they and the Night Lords both use terror tactics, it made sense to show this by(in the IA and 3.5) have added degrees of cooperation between the two groups.

 

Basically, in Lord of Night, it was said that Zso Sahaal's Company was called the Raptors and that he was responsible for their training and the training of the Jump Troop units in the various Legions. Because he was First Captain, it was inferred that his Company was the First Company and that since at the time, the Legions were believed to have numbered around 10,000 on average, that meant the Night Lords had at least 1,000 Jump Troops plus whatever squads were spread out through out the other Nine Companies. However, this was never confirmed, only inferred.

 

Since the release of the HH series, the numbers of the Legions has increased along with the organization. For example, the Luna Wolves have somewhere in the neighborhood of ~100,000 Marines total split into at least sixteen companies IIRC. And the Dark Angels, Word Bearers and Ultramarines are organized into Chapters of 1,000 that are split into Companies of ten. And the entire Death Guard Legion is split between seven Companies and so on so forth.

 

Well with Prince of Crows' publication, it is safe to infer that instead of Chapters, the Night Lords are organized into Companies. Also, with Sevatar's talk about his sub-captains and their companies, it is safe to infer that the Companies have their own break down into Sub-Companies which are then broken down into Claws, or Squads. This was A D-B's way of reconciling how the Atrementar and the Raptors could both be apart of the First Company when both are stated as being their own individual companies. That being the Atrementar are just the Terminator elite organized into one company while the Raptors are organized into another and both still being "the First Company." So this sort of does and sort of doesn't throw into doubt just how many Raptors there are as it is unknown if the Companies vary in size or if there is a set number and just what that number is although in the Night Lords Trilogy, I believe it was mentioned that being at 40 Night Lords left the Company at just under half strength, it could again be safely inferred that a subcompany is only one hundred Marines, which would give a number to the Raptors, although not the entire number of Jump Troops within the Legion as a whole as it is unknown just how many various squads there are or even what their actual strength is. Of course, it could just simply be that the Tenth Company was just a smaller reserve Company that was only ever at ~100 Marines. Alas, until Massacre gives a definitive answer, all speculation with numbers is well, speculation.

 

Now, it is known from the IA article that many of the Jump Troops from across the Legions gathered together after the Heresy and called themselves Raptor Cults. This may have been because the original Cults were started by actual Raptors who had split ways with each other and the Legions or it could even be that some of the Cults simply called themselves Raptors to give themselves some image of greatness that was associated with Zso Sahaal's Company. Either one could be a viable beginning for a Heresy old Raptor Cult. Of course, the fluff of the Blood Disciples gives us an idea of how the Raptors keep replenishing their numbers or even creating new Cults: Renegade Marines. And it is more than possible that some of the Raptor Cults are sponsored by Warbands and trade their services for recruits, control Warbands and select the best from the warband to join their ranks or they may even just go on "recruitment drives."

 

Of course, this is all just conjecture and may just be dust in the wind by the time Massacre is published.

 

As far as the Death Shrouds and their recruitment, that might be true although the impression I got from Flight of the Eisenstein is that the in Death Guard, everyone seems to know everyone so "disappearances" would be rather noticeable which was why Mortarion faked their deaths. Although again, that is just personal conjecture.

[Danny Cyanide]

Well after seeing small things like the Catulan Reaver Squad getting blown into a full Company and Mortarion's bodyguard going from a pair to a bigger number. Basically, yes he does put out some good things but other things seem to get taken and rebuilt to his standards just so it can be put on the tabletop. And yes, it might be nitpicking but when there seems to be a habit of small details being sacrificed to make bigger selling points...... Well I'm just worried about which small detail is going to be made into a defining factor and I feel like I already know which one detail it's going to be.

 

I think I can make this work for you Kol!

 

They can be both a half company and also as many as 40 marines in 2 squads of 20 or so Marines.  I'll reference page 70 of Betrayal.  

 

 

"Company strengths as small as 36 and as large as 972 were recorded by datafactors during the Legion's action against the Dasim Patrimony, for example." 

 

and 

 

"The first company showed even greater variation.  Small in number it contained two distinct sub formations: the Justaerin Terminator squads formed one part and the Catulan Reaver assault squads the other."

 

So while it has been retconed from a single squad, I could read that and believe for my self that there are still only 2 squads.  You could even read it as One large squad of 20 Reavers that can be broken down into 2 "squads" of 10.  That would give you only a single formation of Reavers, lead by Ekaddon when they fight as a single group, but that they could be broken into 2 squads of 10 when they needed to be.  

 

That's how I interpret it.  Still small in numbers, often fight as a single squad of 20, but can be broken into two separate squads of 10 reavers.  

[Sgt.Sangha]

I think that is an logical conclusion Kol. They could very much be the first trained and then as the years go one they spread to other companies and perhaps Sahaal wrote the book about how to practice that kind of warfare. Maybe he was a sub captain in the first company who later got promoted to first captain proper and that allowed his version of the raptors to grow in number. ADB if your reading this maybe you can enlighten us to this a little, without spoiling any future story arcs of course 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Well after seeing small things like the Catulan Reaver Squad getting blown into a full Company and Mortarion's bodyguard going from a pair to a bigger number. Basically, yes he does put out some good things but other things seem to get taken and rebuilt to his standards just so it can be put on the tabletop. And yes, it might be nitpicking but when there seems to be a habit of small details being sacrificed to make bigger selling points...... Well I'm just worried about which small detail is going to be made into a defining factor and I feel like I already know which one detail it's going to be.

I think I can make this work for you Kol!

 

They can be both a half company and also as many as 40 marines in 2 squads of 20 or so Marines. I'll reference page 70 of Betrayal.

 

 

"Company strengths as small as 36 and as large as 972 were recorded by datafactors during the Legion's action against the Dasim Patrimony, for example."

 

and

 

"The first company showed even greater variation. Small in number it contained two distinct sub formations: the Justaerin Terminator squads formed one part and the Catulan Reaver assault squads the other."

 

So while it has been retconed from a single squad, I could read that and believe for my self that there are still only 2 squads. You could even read it as One large squad of 20 Reavers that can be broken down into 2 "squads" of 10. That would give you only a single formation of Reavers, lead by Ekaddon when they fight as a single group, but that they could be broken into 2 squads of 10 when they needed to be.

 

That's how I interpret it. Still small in numbers, often fight as a single squad of 20, but can be broken into two separate squads of 10 reavers.

That actually kind of makes sense.

[Flint13]

Can't believe I missed this until now.

 

To summerize what would be a huge wall of text to answer your original question, yes, "noble" night lords are completely possible. One thing people seem to forget about the night lords is that they aren't a single legion anymore. They are split up into reaving bands of raiders, each with a different viewpoint, which is a huge reason they aren't one big legion anymore. When Konrad died, the night lords fractured and backed the commander they had the closest relationship with.

 

Secondly, like earth, I very much doubt Nostromo was as culturally unilateral as generally accepted fluff would have us believe. I think there is a huge problem with sci-fi settings that present an entire planet as represented entirely by 5 square miles (looking at you mass effect...) Look at Earth today. There are hundreds of different countries, states, pricipalities and within each of those a huge blend of cultures, beliefs and nationalities, each with thier own outlook and ideas.

 

One of many things I liked about A D-B's nightlords novels. He put a bit of character into Nostromo besides "perpetual midnight hive-gotham." I loved the little background bits about Hound's hill-dwelling tribespeople, because it added an extra depth to the planet that didn't exist before.

 

So with the facts arrayed before us... The nightlords contain both terran and nostroman born legionaries, those legionaries come from all types of backgrounds and social standings between the two planets, and the fact that any bit of fluffy imagination you add really only benefits our Nightlordy community as an intellectual whole, you should definately go for some Noble Nightlords. Put the black templars to shame!

[Balthamal]

One other thing that is worth consideration is: whose definition of nobility are you measuring by? It's a pretty safe bet that some NL would consider themselves noble but when compared with the nobility as defined by, say, the Blood Angels or Ultramarines, they'd be pretty far apart.

 

Personally, I like the concept. Just trying to think of a way to put an interesting spin on it, if I do plum for Night Lords as a legion list. Although a quick bit of browsing on forgeworld for some goodies ended up with a price tag of £1483. Depressing as hell :(

[Kol Saresk]

And imagine, that's without the book. :P

[Balthamal]

And the mountain of NL shoulder pads to go with them. And various pieces for a Sevatar conversion Bad bad times indeed. Although to be fair that included things like pairs of storm eagles, cerberus' and typhons. Not conducive to cheap and affordable. Neither were 2 tactical bundles, assault bundle and cataphractii. 

 

Now where did i leave that winning lotto ticket......

[Kol Saresk]

Dunno. But if I find it I'll gladly accept a 10% finder's fee. ;)

[Balthamal]

Dunno. But if I find it I'll gladly accept a 10% finder's fee.

Agreed /shakes

[Wade Garrett]

Night Lords. Noble.

 

By the standards of Warhammer 40,000 ("Welcome to our planet, Noble Marines Malevolent! Now if you'll excuse us, our entire population has to celebrate our annual...er...Festival of...Spiritedly Traveling to the Opposite Side of the Planet from this one!") I suppose it would be possible. But still...

 

Sevatar murdered his brother Captains in the Chiroptera, tortured a Raven Guard into being his loyal minion, and, oh, as a child he KILLED PEOPLE TO EAT THEIR EYEBALLS! (This is an important fact that is often overlooked.)

 

For all that Sahaal was considered a puritan among the VIII Legion, he also made mass sacrifices to Chaos Undivided to protect himself from psyker divination. And tortured women and children to death and abandoned his First Company brothers to the eldar, all for a nice hat. (To be fair, it was a VERY nice hat.)

 

Talos orchestrates a massive torture and murder spree of a defenseless colony world, not to mention his methods of achieving the grand "Warp Shriek" in Void Stalker.

 

Quoth Rogal Dorn:

"If there is yet nobility within Konrad's Legion, it is buried deep beneath their heretical lusts and deviant ways."

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget, Sevatar killed the other Captains of the Chiroptera in order to save the Legion because they just wanted to charge back into the fight blind.

[Flint13]

Ah, quick point. Sevatar didn't kill people to eat the eyeballs... That was his joke with the crows. He didn't like the eyes, so he always let his crow buddies have them. Can you tell I just re-read Price of Crows for the n^th time? ^_^

[Wade Garrett]

Ah, quick point. Sevatar didn't kill people to eat the eyeballs... That was his joke with the crows. He didn't like the eyes, so he always let his crow buddies have them. Can you tell I just re-read Price of Crows for the n^th time?

He tried eyeballs at least once, but he didn't like the dreams they gave him.

I suppose an element of self defense can be argued in the Chiroptera killings, given that Captain Can't Remember His Name had announced he intended to murder Sevatar (Later. When his back was turned. Possibly while he was asleep. Using a Multi-Melta) but the rest of the Legion reacts with "Sevatar, you're crazy."

Let me reiterate that:

The NIGHT LORDS LEGION reacts that he has gone mad. MAAAAD!

[Kol Saresk]

Madness? This. Is. NOSTRAMO!

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Come on, he can't have been all bad. After all he kept pet birds ;)

[Balthamal]

Madness? This. Is. NOSTRAMO!

I want this for my Sig but it's bloated enough as it is

[Flint13]

Madness? This. Is. NOSTRAMO!

I want this for my Sig but it's bloated enough as it is

I'll snag it then!

Really, I see Jago as just mirroring Curze's plan to pacify Nostramo with his attack on the Kyroptera. He culled the weak before they could turn on him in greater numbers to keep them from spreading inadequacy and muntinous thoughts any farther.

[blackoption]

That is one way to do it.  Though I will point out that Sevatar wasn't entirely callous in that regard.  One of the group was smart enough to realize it was a trap and flee.  He was allowed to keep his position.

 

As for nobility among the Night Lords,  I would have to agree with the position that it exists, but it is twisted.  Sevatar is an example of this twisted nobility, as was Talos. The closest thing I can find to more traditional noblity was the War Sage, (but the legion always joked that the War Sage was actually an Ultramarine in disguise.)

[Wade Garrett]

Come on, he can't have been all bad. After all he kept pet birds

You know who else had pets?

HITLER!!11!

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

Hitler 11? Damn, we should NEVER have built those fascist androids - they've been nothing but trouble!

[No Foes Remain]

Didn't Rogal Dorn say something about the nobility of the Night Lords, I think it was in Soul Hunter at one of the Chapter headings....

 

 

 

Edit: Found it, Page 123 of Soul Hunter

 

"If there is nobility remaining within Konrad's Legion, then it is hidden deeply beneath too many layers of twisted lust, deviance, and disobedience. their ways are foolish, ill-considered and a hindrance to the orderly flow of controlled war. The time is coming when the Night Lords must answer for their behaviour and be brought back into the doctrine of Imperial warfare, lest we lose them to their own deviant hungers."

- The Primarch Rogal Dorn, recorded commentary at the battle of Galvion M31.

 

Hitler 11? Damn, we should NEVER have built those fascist androids - they've been nothing but trouble!

Yet the Stalin-bot worked out quite well...