Betrayer-A Review. Unmarked Spoilers inside

[Gree]

As a warning. There are Unmarked Spoilers.

 

 

Well, after being out of the loop in the hobby for quite some time now, especially with the Horus Heresy series, I decided to get back in by purchasing Betrayer and a couple of other novels. I admit my trepidation with spending money on another Heresy novel after Know No Fear was such a disappointment, but Betrayer had gotten good reviews. So I decided to read it and post my own review, although it turned out to be as twice as long as I originally planned to write.

 

Everything below is simply my own personal opinion and interpretations.

 

The novel focuses on the alliance of the World Eaters and Word Bearers. Angron features as an important character, but Khârn and Argel Tal from the First Heretic take more of a prominent viewpoint among several others.

 

The first half of the book concerns the war against the Ultramarines and it essentially straight action. The unnecessary retcon to make Ultramar 500 worlds large is still present, but I learned to ignore it and focus on the meat of the story. The action is as much one can ask for really. Lots of people dying and dynamic action when necessary. Mr. Dembski-Bowden always writes excellent action scenes and in this I am never disappointed with his work.

 

With Angron his key issues are brought to light, something elaborated on previous works but more fleshed out here. The Lord of the World Eaters is a broken, sad being, denied his true potential even as he stews in berserk madness. We get a rather nice scene with Russ. If Leman Russ is the fierce, but majestic wolf, then Angron is the rabid, abused dog.

 

I have to applaud Mr. Dembski-Bowden for doing as much as he did with Angron, since traditionally rage-filled berserkers have never usually been the most depth-filled and complex characters to write for.

 

Angron strangely runs the weird mix of being both a tragic monster and yet rather unsympathetic at the same time. One can’t help but feel sorry for the wasted potential and tortures inflicted on him, yet dislike him somewhat for his brutality and what the turned the War Hounds into. It’s a rather strange feeling to experience.

 

Honestly one must question why the Emperor chose to give an entire Legion to such an insane, broken creature with a clear death wish. There are things one can speculate on, but that seems a bit of poor judgment from the Emperor.

 

Angron’s ultimate fate and transformation plays a key part in Lorgar’s plans and indeed the fate of the Ultramarines for much of the Heresy beyond, as well as perhaps a sort of karmic doom for Angron. He who hated serving a lord or being a lord is now trapped in the service of another for eternity. We also get to see Angron’s homeworld and its name as well as Angron returning to it and the battlefield he was transported away from. It’s a rather tearjerking moment to be honest.

 

I’m unimpressed by Cyrene’s resurrection. Dead characters should stay dead. Resurrecting them cheapens the original death. I’m already unhappy that they resurrected Loken for that reason.

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Galaxy in Flames, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

 

I did find Lorgar’s attempts to explain to Angron why Russ won that night and why being an insane berserker is a poor trait for an army, to be amusing. Actual the entire novel is a testament to the idea that sanity has advantages. The World Eaters may be the finest at killing things but they are undoubtedly the worst when it comes to actually fighting a war. I mean, when your leaders are too insane to coordinate proper movements it becomes a problem. Like for example the World Eaters running into Ultramarine ambushes like crazed lemmings because they are simply too berserk to care.

 

Lhorke illustrates that rather well in his private thoughts and I find myself enjoying him and his viewpoint on the events. He’s an interesting character, a relic of the War Hounds rather than the World Eaters of Angron. His death and that of the Librarians more or less signals the death of the War Hounds legacy in a sense.

 

Ultramarines dying like animals is nothing new ever since Know No Fear, but at least they mostly get a better showing here than in Know No Fear, even though this novel isn’t really about them. It’s the World Eaters’ story here.

 

I do find it amusing that Kor Phaeron is more effective against Guilliman than Lorgar. I guess it’s also interesting that Guilliman is essentially spared a second time from certain death and allowed to crawl away to lick his wounds.

 

I also thought it was a nice touch that in a way, Betrayer ended in a similar fashion to Khârn first meeting his lord. I.e venturing into the darkness of a berserk monster who just slaughtered hundreds. It felt like things had come full circle. It makes me wonder how Khârn’s story will continue. Angron’s story has most probably come to a conclusion, but we know Khârn still has yet to conduct his most infamous betrayal.

 

If I had to summarize it as an overview, I thought it was an excellent book overall. It had its flaws certainly, but none of them weighed down enough to detract majorly from my enjoyment of this book.  That being said I am left with a burning desire to go play Word Bearers. This is probably more suited to another review, but Lorgar’s character arc has always impressed me especially.

[Cerbero666]

It was a beast of a book (literally). But it had as you said some flaws.

-Cyrene resurrection left me cold, it was like "meh, she again, her dead made Argel Tal gone totally dark and she's alive again". I was expecting some kind of new daemonic version of Cyrene, something that Argel Tal wasn't expecting. Like: "ok I accepted to bring her back and she's a monster now", like in Kenneth Brannagh's version of Frankenstein, with the bride and that stuff. But it keeped me interested the Perpetuals background. She was prety normal after her resurrection...or was she?

-Erebus stabbing Argel Tal in the back. I have two different feelins about it. In some way I appreciate the fate changed, but that would mean that all the other fates, even that of Angron, could have been changed, and IIRC in some parts of the novel it was stated by Lorgar (or believed) that the fate cannot be changed. But I don't consider it a flaw, the way of Argel Tal to die yes. I think we haven't seen the last of him, his character arc hadn't ended yet IMO.

-This I'm not sure but If I remember correctly Argel Tal wasn't exactly worried about Cyrene in the last part of the novel when the Ultramarines launched the attack. But I should read that again.

-Khârn not killing Erebus. I know Erebus lived through the Heresy, but so was Lucius f'rex. When Lorgar told Khârn who killed Argel Tal, I thought it was the end of the novel. When I found that Khârn was fighting Erebus in the pit I said: ok, then Erebus is going to die. The point is why extend that part if Khârn wasn't gonna kill Erebus anyway? It could have ended perfectly after Khârn was told that the bastard killed his friend.

In the other hand:

+Khârn's story arc. Awesome. I really liked this guy since After Desh'ea, but ADB made me love the man. He is honourable, he even have some troubles when Erebus is going to sacrifice all that people to bring Cyrene back. But he loves his legion, he think that they have to do it, because no one else dare to go that far. All that about the Eightfold Path is some way explained, that happens to him when he's lost to the nails, he pass out and "Khorne" takes the controls. And his relationship with Argel Tal, being the Word Bearer the only one to put the centurion out of his future madness, well written.

+Lhorke and the librarians. So out of the legion context, that they aren'r really World Eaters but War Hounds. The reaction of Lhorke when he is told that there's a civil war between the legions, and their final battle against Lorgar and Angron trying to save the same primarch that despise them.

+Lotara Sarrin. Even when she's so close to Soul Hunter's Octavia he is even more badass. When she shot Delvarus in the face...It took a moment to realize that it's not so out of his character. Is a woman commanding the World Eaters flagship, she have to be that rude, if not the WE would do everything they want. That's the point, when Delvarus left the ship and it's boarded she had two options: Left Delvarus without punishment, what would make him even more loosed, or stand face to face against him like saying: I'm the top dog here, so stop pissing me off. I think Delvarus had a sense of honour too, and he realized that Lotara was right. In the moment she shot him, there were some World Eaters around who respected Lotara (or Khârn who respected her), even Lhorke, so it was reasonable for her to getting away without major troubles. 

[Sevatar]

I agree, it was an awesome book. Delvarus was pretty cool as well.

[Wade Garrett]

I liked Lotara.

 

As for her shooting Delvarius in the face...he's an Astartes in full battle armor. She had a las pistol. This is the equivalent of the hand on the shoulder to get someone's attention. Or that's how I saw it.

 

Also, this woman had ANGRON'S respect. Let me reiterate that. Angron, who doesn't respect the Emperor, doesn't respect his Terminator First Company, who barely respects himself...somehow, she did something to earn the Red Angel's respect. We don't know what, and I for one think ADB should leave it unsaid, since it leaves us free to imagine just what she did, but it was probably something that was incredibly violent.

 

And you think she's going to take the Captain oathed to guard the ship abandoning his post in the middle of a battle zone lying down? Oh no.

 

Also, Guilliman and the Ultramarines may have LOGISTICS, where everything is LOGISTICALLY ordered according to grand LOGISTICAL charts in order for maximum LOGISTICS efficency...but the World Eaters have HARPOONS! HARPOONS ON EVERYTHING! HARPOONS ON THE TITANS! THE BATTLE SHIPS! WHY AREN'T THERE HARPOONS ON THE DREADNAUGHTS AND ASTARTES! KHORNE, HONOR OUR BLOODSHED AND GRANT OUR REQUEST FOR MORE HARPOONS!

[Pavement Artist]

Yeah im not sure what you found so ridiculous about Lotara shooting that guy. As pointed out, las weapons against a power armour helmet is going to blister the paintwork. Aside from nearly getting shot, she knew damn well that Angron would be on her side before Delvarus.

[Gree]

I liked Lotara.

 

As for her shooting Delvarius in the face...he's an Astartes in full battle armor. She had a las pistol. This is the equivalent of the hand on the shoulder to get someone's attention. Or that's how I saw it.

 

Also, this woman had ANGRON'S respect. Let me reiterate that. Angron, who doesn't respect the Emperor, doesn't respect his Terminator First Company, who barely respects himself...somehow, she did something to earn the Red Angel's respect. We don't know what, and I for one think ADB should leave it unsaid, since it leaves us free to imagine just what she did, but it was probably something that was incredibly violent.

 

That's kinda why i found her character to be ridiculous yes.

 

 

Yeah im not sure what you found so ridiculous about Lotara shooting that guy. As pointed out, las weapons against a power armour helmet is going to blister the paintwork. Aside from nearly getting shot, she knew damn well that Angron would be on her side before Delvarus.

 

A mortal disrespecting an Astartes, especially in a Legion like the World Eaters, and getting away with it without being turned into bloody paste? Yeah, you bet I found it ridiculous, no matter how well respected she might be by Angron or the World Eaters, ignoring the fact that Angron respects nobody, possibly not even himself.

[randian]

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

 

I wonder what Lotara thinks once the World Eaters start sacrificing human crew. Will she be going Khorne with them? A poor idea for a starship captain who needs a level head.

[Antarius]

 

-Erebus stabbing Argel Tal in the back. I have two different feelins about it. In some way I appreciate the fate changed, but that would mean that all the other fates, even that of Angron, could have been changed, and IIRC in some parts of the novel it was stated by Lorgar (or believed) that the fate cannot be changed. But I don't consider it a flaw, the way of Argel Tal to die yes. I think we haven't seen the last of him, his character arc hadn't ended yet IMO.

I don't think the fates changed at all? Didn't he die exactly as the Daemon always said they would?

 

As for Lotara, I took it mostly as the sane(well, saner) World Eaters recognizing that she was right. That they needed the flagship protected and that they couldn't allow Delvarus to shirk his duties.

[Gree]

 

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

 

I wonder what Lotara thinks once the World Eaters start sacrificing human crew. Will she be going Khorne with them? A poor idea for a starship captain who needs a level head.

 

You miss my point. Khârn was acting Khornate in Galaxy in Flames when he fought Loken, yet after that book in Betrayer he seemed to do a 180 reversion in terms of characterization.

[Antarius]

 

 

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

 

I wonder what Lotara thinks once the World Eaters start sacrificing human crew. Will she be going Khorne with them? A poor idea for a starship captain who needs a level head.

 

You miss my point. Khârn was acting Khornate in Galaxy in Flames when he fought Loken, yet after that book in Betrayer he seemed to do a 180 reversion in terms of characterization.

Yeah. I re-listened to GiF the other day and did a double take at that. My guess is A D-B quietly retconned that (pretty small) part in favour of a more gradual descent.

 

Although I guess it could be explained as berserk ravings when he's in a state like the one where he almost kills Argel Tal in Betrayer.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think Khârn will fully turn until he becomes the Betrayer. I think after surviving the Heresy and the terror that is living in the Eye he will become so hateful towards his brethren, and simply put, tired of their that he just unleashes centuries of frustration at being a World Eater on everyone he sees.

Personally, I like the idea of Khârn just being a guy in the 41st Millennia who exists in some weird state similar to a drunken blackout in between battles because of the nails. While he's 'sober' he has no idea what he's done or what has become of his brothers, but when the nails take him he is totally devoted to Khorne. A Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde scenario.

Super tragic. Very potent. Only A D-B could pull it off.

I just like the idea of Khârn waking up after every battle and trying to figure out what happened.

[depthcharge12]

 

Also, Guilliman and the Ultramarines may have LOGISTICS, where everything is LOGISTICALLY ordered according to grand LOGISTICAL charts in order for maximum LOGISTICS efficency...but the World Eaters have HARPOONS! HARPOONS ON EVERYTHING! HARPOONS ON THE TITANS! THE BATTLE SHIPS! WHY AREN'T THERE HARPOONS ON THE DREADNAUGHTS AND ASTARTES! KHORNE, HONOR OUR BLOODSHED AND GRANT OUR REQUEST FOR MORE HARPOONS!

Yo dawg (War Hound ;) ) I heard you like harpoons. So we put harpoons on your harpoons, so you can spear stuff while you spear stuff.

[godking]

 

I liked Lotara.

 

As for her shooting Delvarius in the face...he's an Astartes in full battle armor. She had a las pistol. This is the equivalent of the hand on the shoulder to get someone's attention. Or that's how I saw it.

 

Also, this woman had ANGRON'S respect. Let me reiterate that. Angron, who doesn't respect the Emperor, doesn't respect his Terminator First Company, who barely respects himself...somehow, she did something to earn the Red Angel's respect. We don't know what, and I for one think ADB should leave it unsaid, since it leaves us free to imagine just what she did, but it was probably something that was incredibly violent.

 

That's kinda why i found her character to be ridiculous yes.

 

 

>Yeah im not sure what you found so ridiculous about Lotara shooting that guy. As pointed out, las weapons against a power armour helmet is going to blister the paintwork. Aside from nearly getting shot, she knew damn well that Angron would be on her side before Delvarus.

 

A mortal disrespecting an Astartes, especially in a Legion like the World Eaters, and getting away with it without being turned into bloody paste? Yeah, you bet I found it ridiculous, no matter how well respected she might be by Angron or the World Eaters, ignoring the fact that Angron respects nobody, possibly not even himself.

 

Lotara is alot more important to the legion then Delvarus is.

 

And Lotara got away with it not just because Delvarus abandoned his post but because he lied to his brothers about it.

 

Another thing to note is that the World Eaters have their own traditions and customs.

[Gree]

Double post.

[Gree]

 

 

I liked Lotara.

 

As for her shooting Delvarius in the face...he's an Astartes in full battle armor. She had a las pistol. This is the equivalent of the hand on the shoulder to get someone's attention. Or that's how I saw it.

 

Also, this woman had ANGRON'S respect. Let me reiterate that. Angron, who doesn't respect the Emperor, doesn't respect his Terminator First Company, who barely respects himself...somehow, she did something to earn the Red Angel's respect. We don't know what, and I for one think ADB should leave it unsaid, since it leaves us free to imagine just what she did, but it was probably something that was incredibly violent.

 

That's kinda why i found her character to be ridiculous yes.

 

 

>Yeah im not sure what you found so ridiculous about Lotara shooting that guy. As pointed out, las weapons against a power armour helmet is going to blister the paintwork. Aside from nearly getting shot, she knew damn well that Angron would be on her side before Del

varus.

 

A mortal disrespecting an Astartes, especially in a Legion like the World Eaters, and getting away with it without being turned into bloody paste? Yeah, you bet I found it ridiculous, no matter how well respected she might be by Angron or the World Eaters, ignoring the fact that Angron respects nobody, possibly not even himself.

Lotara is alot more important to the legion then Delvarus is.

 

And Lotara got away with it not just because Delvarus abandoned his post but because he lied to his brothers about it.

 

Another thing to note is that the World Eaters have their own traditions and customs.

 

 

World Eater traditions and customs are at least partially why I find it ridiculous. I kept on expecting her to be turned to paste and was disappointed.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

And don't forget, the fight between Loken and Khârn is the closest thing we've really had to see what a World Eater is like when the Nails are in full swing. When the Dark Eldar in Butcher's Nails said that the pain-engines lead to the eightfold path, it might have been a literal statement, not a figurative "they make it easier for Khorne to corrupt them."

[Pavement Artist]

It would have been implausible had they not retaliated at all. She was immediately fired upon by the triarii and only the kine shield from the nearby librarian saved her. It's clear Angron respects a select group of people, Lotara being one of them as she doesn't bother with the niceties of rank (dispensing with the "My lords" and what not).

 

What about her attitude is ridiculous to you exactly? Just because she isn't a legionnaire doesn't mean she cant show up one of the world eaters? She's Flag captain of the legion, she earned that rank and there's no way she got to that high a position in the world eaters without the dominant personality to back it up.

 

I'm just curious as to why you're so reticent to the idea of her as a character

[Gree]

It would have been implausible had they not retaliated at all. She was immediately fired upon by the triarii and only the kine shield from the nearby librarian saved her. It's clear Angron respects a select group of people, Lotara being one of them as she doesn't bother with the niceties of rank (dispensing with the "My lords" and what not).

The fact that she was saved or was not slaughtered later is ridiculous.

What about her attitude is ridiculous to you exactly? Just because she isn't a legionnaire doesn't mean she cant show up one of the world eaters? She's Flag captain of the legion, she earned that rank and there's no way she got to that high a position in the world eaters without the dominant personality to back it up.

 

I'm just curious as to why you're so reticent to the idea of her as a character

She's a mortal and their Astartes, some of the most violent disrespectful Astartes around and I find it ridiculous that she actually shot one and managed to survive.

 

And to be perfectly blunt, you aren't going to change my opinion on this. I found that scene ridiculous and the character rather ridiculous. It's perfectly fine if some other people like her, but I don't and my opinion is not going to change on that subject.

[randian]

 

 

 

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

And don't forget, the fight between Loken and Khârn is the closest thing we've really had to see what a World Eater is like when the Nails are in full swing. When the Dark Eldar in Butcher's Nails said that the pain-engines lead to the eightfold path, it might have been a literal statement, not a figurative "they make it easier for Khorne to corrupt them."

Taking the Dark Eldar statement as truth, I can't figure out how Nuceria wasn't a hotbed of Khorne worship. Their games, and the implantation of pain devices, are so Khornate they'd be unremarkable on a daemon world of Khorne.

[Wade Garrett]

What's so ridiculous about it?

She is VALUABLE TO THE LEGION. She gets special privileges. Look at the way Argel Tal and Khârn killed other Word Bearers who were trying to do unspecified but no doubt batcrap crazy things to the resurrected Cyrene. Neither of them said "Oh, she's a human and you guys are Astartes. We'll just sit here while you pull her apart so every one of your companies can have one of her organs nailed to their battle standards."

Look at the ADB's Night Lords series. Uzuas kills some random slaves? Meh. Uzuas tries to kill Septimus or Octavia? Talos gives his skull to the other slaves for use as a chamber pot. Honestly, this idea that the XII Legion has "Astartes pride" and thinks of itself as better than non Astartes...that's the Iron Hands, the Emperor's Children.Or maybe the Ultramarines

[Gree]

What's so ridiculous about it?

 

She is VALUABLE TO THE LEGION. She gets special privileges. Look at the way Argel Tal and Khârn killed other Word Bearers who were trying to do unspecified but no doubt batcrap crazy things to the resurrected Cyrene. Neither of them said "Oh, she's a human and you guys are Astartes. We'll just sit here while you pull her apart so every one of your companies can have one of her organs nailed to their battle standards."

 

Look at the ADB's Night Lords series. Uzuas kills some random slaves? Meh. Uzuas tries to kill Septimus or Octavia? Talos gives his skull to the other slaves for use as a chamber pot. Honestly, this idea that the XII Legion has "Astartes pride" and thinks of itself as better than non Astartes...that's the Iron Hands, the Emperor's Children.Or maybe the Ultramarines:whistling:

She's a mortal who tried to shoot an Astartes, a World Eater to be precise. She should be a bloody smear on the ground no matter what.

 

My opinion is not going to change no matter how you try and justify it. I have said that in a prior post and I am saying it now to prevent the inevitable pages-longs argument that might follow as people try to desperately change my opinion.

 

I'm fine if people like her and find the scene good. I personally do not and my opinion will not change on that matter.

[A D-B]

Oooh, cool reviews. Many thanks.

Couple of points to reply to:

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

I wonder what Lotara thinks once the World Eaters start sacrificing human crew. Will she be going Khorne with them? A poor idea for a starship captain who needs a level head.

You miss my point. Khârn was acting Khornate in Galaxy in Flames when he fought Loken, yet after that book in Betrayer he seemed to do a 180 reversion in terms of characterization.

True. He was.

The problem with that is that it made no sense. This was before practically any legion, including the Sons of Horus, had any idea what Chaos was. Yet Khârn was shouting about the Eightfold Path. I imagine that line won't make it into the re-released hardbacks and future editions. It just made absolutely no sense in the context of the Heresy, especially not at that stage of proceedings. A few weeks before that, Khârn had been fine. The next time we see him, he's yelling about Chaos. Before Abaddon knows what Chaos is. Before Ahriman does. Before Horus does. I'm not buying it.It was one bad line, with nothing backing it up anywhere else in the series.

Inconsistencies aren't always a bad thing, dude. Quite often, they're corrections.

What's so ridiculous about it?

She is VALUABLE TO THE LEGION. She gets special privileges. Look at the way Argel Tal and Khârn killed other Word Bearers who were trying to do unspecified but no doubt batcrap crazy things to the resurrected Cyrene. Neither of them said "Oh, she's a human and you guys are Astartes. We'll just sit here while you pull her apart so every one of your companies can have one of her organs nailed to their battle standards."

Look at the ADB's Night Lords series. Uzuas kills some random slaves? Meh. Uzuas tries to kill Septimus or Octavia? Talos gives his skull to the other slaves for use as a chamber pot. Honestly, this idea that the XII Legion has "Astartes pride" and thinks of itself as better than non Astartes...that's the Iron Hands, the Emperor's Children.Or maybe the Ultramarines

WHK, Cerbero, Godking, and Wade explained that pretty sweetly, yep.

There's a lot of nuance in stuff like this. It's not clean cut. She's an Imperial hero. She's the chosen flag-captain of the primarch's battleship, calls Legion commanders by their first name, organises the Legion's void wars because they're too unstable to do it themselves, and respected enough to have earned World Eater battle honours - she has the Blood Hand, given by Khârn. That's not an unrealistic position - she's a competent officer, one of a squillion human heroes in the Imperium at that point, and one of the many respected by the Legions. We may not have seen many in other books, but they'd be there. There'll be robots, humans, and cyborgs like that spread across the Legions (the robot in The First Heretic, for example), without a doubt. That's been in the lore for a while.

There's more depth to the Legions and their individual characters than things playing out so black and white. Look at how the World Eaters react to Delvarus after his sin comes to light. Look at the punishment in the pit. That Legion, more than most others, needs reliable human serfs because they're so unable to control themselves in situations that call for tactics or tact. They get antsy when said serfs are messed with, and bonds of loyalty (which matter to them immensely) are broken.

Soldiers, superhuman or otherwise, are still sentient mortals with emotions, experiences, perspectives, loyalties, and biases.

[Gree]

Triple Post

[Gree]

Triple Post

[Gree]

Apologies for the triple post. There is something wrong with my computer connection.

 

 

What's so ridiculous about it?

 

She is VALUABLE TO THE LEGION. She gets special privileges. Look at the way Argel Tal and Khârn killed other Word Bearers who were trying to do unspecified but no doubt batcrap crazy things to the resurrected Cyrene. Neither of them said "Oh, she's a human and you guys are Astartes. We'll just sit here while you pull her apart so every one of your companies can have one of her organs nailed to their battle standards."

 

Look at the ADB's Night Lords series. Uzuas kills some random slaves? Meh. Uzuas tries to kill Septimus or Octavia? Talos gives his skull to the other slaves for use as a chamber pot. Honestly, this idea that the XII Legion has "Astartes pride" and thinks of itself as better than non Astartes...that's the Iron Hands, the Emperor's Children.Or maybe the Ultramarines:whistling:

 

WHK, Cerbero, Godking, and Wade explained that pretty sweetly, yep.

 

There's a lot of nuance in stuff like this. It's not clean cut. She's an Imperial hero. She's the chosen flag-captain of the primarch's battleship, calls Legion commanders by their first name, organises the Legion's void wars because they're too unstable to do it themselves, and respected enough to have earned World Eater battle honours - she has the Blood Hand, given by Khârn. That's not an unrealistic position - she's a competent officer, one of a squillion human heroes in the Imperium at that point, and one of the many respected by the Legions. We may not have seen many in other books, but they'd be there. There'll be robots, humans, and cyborgs like that spread across the Legions (the robot in The First Heretic, for example), without a doubt. That's been in the lore for a while.

 

There's more depth to the Legions and their individual characters than things playing out so black and white. Look at how the World Eaters react to Delvarus after his sin comes to light. Look at the punishment in the pit. That Legion, more than most others, needs reliable human serfs because they're so unable to control themselves in situations that call for tactics or tact. They get antsy when said serfs are messed with, and bonds of loyalty (which matter to them immensely) are broken. 

 

Soldiers, superhuman or otherwise, are still sentient mortals with emotions, experiences, perspectives, loyalties, and biases.

 

 

Well thank you for taking the time to explain this. It's certainly welcome but I'm afraid that doesn't change my position or view on that subject. I can certainly see where you are coming from, but I can't quite agree in total.