Betrayer-A Review. Unmarked Spoilers inside

[Kol Saresk]

Gree, how about this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I found Khârn’s characterization an odd issue here. If I remember correctly he was all ‘’Follow the Eightfold Path’’ in Let the Galaxy Burn, yet here he starts off more composed and doubtful about the daemonic powers the Word Bearers wield. It’s an odd disjunction, truth to be told.

The World Eaters aren't overtly Khornate yet. Khârn hasn't yet given himself to Khorne. His beatdown of Erebus was very controlled, very non-Khorne. I assume the blood sacrifice Angron wants will be done by Khârn and have some suitably corrupting effect.

 

 

And don't forget, the fight between Loken and Khârn is the closest thing we've really had to see what a World Eater is like when the Nails are in full swing. When the Dark Eldar in Butcher's Nails said that the pain-engines lead to the eightfold path, it might have been a literal statement, not a figurative "they make it easier for Khorne to corrupt them."

 

 

Taking the Dark Eldar statement as truth, I can't figure out how Nuceria wasn't a hotbed of Khorne worship. Their games, and the implantation of pain devices, are so Khornate they'd be unremarkable on a daemon world of Khorne.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Before Angron, the War Hounds were just barely wearing a leash. Betrayal(The Forgeworld HH Book) spoke of them as quite possibly being the Emperor's Executioners(page 85), but even at this point in time, they were not Khornate as A D-B just pointed out. Also, think of how many worlds that actively worship Chaos and yet are not daemon worlds. Just because warp taint is present it doesn't mean the world is a gateway for the warp to bleed into reality. Otherwise Caliban would be a daemonworld. All it means is that the barriers are very thin.

 

On the note of Lotarra. Gree, you spoke of how the World Eaters' traditions would demand that Lotarra be executed right?

 

Page 97, Betrayal by Alan Bligh

The rank structure of the World Eaters under Angron remained simple and direct, the Primarch having little but scorn for the trappings of elites and pointless accolades and titles, refusing it is said to be addressed even as 'Lord', but he did see the virtue of a reliable and transparent chain of command in war. Such honors that the Legion and their master did believe in were warrior-marks of brotherhood and the scars of battle; these things transcended rank and spoke to the worth of the Space Marine beneath the armour. The sundered chains of one who had fought overwhelming odds and lived-an allusion that spoke to Angron's own bleak history, and the bloody handprint over the face or heart bestowed by a battle leader for a warrior whose fury had transcended that of his brothers-to the World Eaters these meant more than any mere bauble, title or trinket.

Page 54(Hardback Edition), Betrayer by Aaron Dembski-Bowden

Lotara's military record spoke in bland, archival terms-replete with neat, uninteresting servitors' handwriting-of exemplary bravery, steadfastness and patience, citing her frequent dealings and mediations with the primarch of the XII Legion. It also noted her many medals and decorations-none of which she ever wore outside of formal occasions, and most of which languished at the bottom of the wardrobe in her forever-untidy personal chambers.

 

Anyone reading this record would also find various notations of level-headedness, commendable tactical insight and a gift for logistics. All very orderly, all to be expected in a prominent captain.

 

The only citation she actually cared about was noted in the following terms: 'Awarded a unique distinction by the XII Legion for notable courage in the compliance of the worlds formally claimed by the Ashul Stellar Principality.'

 

She wore that commendation, loud and proud. The Blood Hand, a red handprint across the chest of her crisp white uniform, as of the raised throne of ornate filigreed brass didn't already mark her out from the three hundred other officers working in the strategium.

And IIRC, Butcher's Nails adds the supplement that it was Khârn himself who gave her the Blood Hand.

 

Speaking of the Blood Hand, a mark that demands respect across the chain of command, a mark of respect normally reserved only for other World Eaters only to be bestowed after showing more fury than his brothers. Can you imagine what a mere human would have to do to get that kind of mark? If you can, then kudos because I sure can't and I can imagine why A D-B is leaving it as a semi-mystery.

 

The other thing, "a reliable and transparent chain of command." What good is a chain of command if a commander is breaking it? Not only that, but even the other World Eaters punished him of their own accord. And afterwards, even Delvarus admitted that he deserved it. Lotara is far beyond just an average human mortal, she can backtalk Angron and get away with it.(page 59, Betrayer) Personally, even if I was Khârn I'd feel iffy about back talking the Red Angel.

 

On the note of the Ursus Claws, if I read page 101 of Betrayal correctly, the Ursus Claws seem to be a specialty of the Redjak(or Crimson Priests) of the Forge-world Sarum, which was liberated by the World Eaters from the Brotherhood of Ruin. Since they have since been staunch supporters of the World Eaters and the Ursus Claws fit the World Eaters perfectly, well the relationship is definitely symbiotic.

[Wade Garrett]

This is the Internet! We don't respectfully agree to disagree wth one another here!

 

FLAMES FOR THE FLAME GOD!

TROLLS FOR THE TROLL THRONE!

 

Anyway....I really do think Astartes sized versions of the Ursus claws would be neato. I can imagine a Night Lord using them, you impale the prey to keep it from running away, also you can have one screaming mortal hooked on your line while you're engaged in the attention consuming business of torturing another, and you don't have to worry about the meat managing to crawl off while your focus is elsewhere. Same thing for the Emperor's Children.

 

Or something for vehicle hunting squads among the Dark Angels, formed in emulation of the Legio Audax.. I can imagine several Marines working in tandem to spear a tank and then yanking on it till it turns upside down. The World Eaters would, of course, lack the team work necessary for such a feat.

[Gree]

Gree, how about this.

I'm getting rather tired of repeating myself.

 

Yes, I respect your opinion. I also respectfully disagree with it. The author has come to offer clarification and I thank him for his contribution but I still hold to my personal opinion.

 

Honestly I don't understand why people are so dead set on getting me to change my opinion. I already stated it was a rather minor issue and I did not find it very distracting at all, so it's not a major criticism at all. In fact I greatly enjoyed Betrayer and thought it was an excellent novel.

 

Cannot we not simply agree to disagree at this point?

[depthcharge12]

I think, while it isn't at all a harpoon, the barbed hook lash is the closest thing to what you want for a WE astartes. I can imagine that thing sinking into the meat of a body. Which can be used to keep the quarry from running away, or can rip out a chunk of flesh. Yummy!

 

Is it too much to hope for by the time of the siege of terra for an astartes level harpoon? Maybe.

 

However, I feel an ursus claw for a war hound Titan would be realistically made by forge world. Here's hopes to that! :)

[Kol Saresk]

I think, while it isn't at all a harpoon, the barbed hook lash is the closest thing to what you want for a WE astartes. I can imagine that thing sinking into the meat of a body. Which can be used to keep the quarry from running away, or can rip out a chunk of flesh. Yummy!

Is it too much to hope for by the time of the siege of terra for an astartes level harpoon? Maybe.

However, I feel an ursus claw for a war hound Titan would be realistically made by forge world. Here's hopes to that!

Well, the ones first presented in Betrayal were being used to impale abhumans and drag them back to be butchered, similar to how the ship-sized Ursus Claws dragged in impaled ships to make for easier boarding. So technically, they already exist. It's possible the World Eaters even have and utilize them, we just didn't see any of it just like we didn't see any artillery or vehicle formations even though Betrayal speaks of their existence and that even Ferrus Manus praised them.

Gree, it was that earlier you said the World Eater traditions should have turned Lotara into bloody paste when she shot Delvarus. I was just pointing out that according to what we know of the World Eaters' traditions, she was actually well within her right to shot Delvarus. No more, no less.

[Gree]

Gree, it was that earlier you said the World Eater traditions should have turned Lotara into bloody paste when she shot Delvarus. I was just pointing out that according to what we know of the World Eaters' traditions, she was actually well within her right to shot Delvarus. No more, no less.

To repeat myself once more, I respect your opinion but I disagree with it and find the whole thing implausible.

 

Now, can we just agree to disagree?

[Kol Saresk]

I was just explaining the motivation for my posting was all, no more, no less.

[Gree]

I was just explaining the motivation for my posting was all, no more, no less.

And I disagree with your posting and the facts provided. Can we agree to disagree at this point?

[Kol Saresk]

I am agreeing to disagree. Oh forget it. it's obvious you just want the last word at this point.

[DarKnight]

*ADB lands in the thread like Iron Man and slowly rises to his feet* "wish I knew how to post gifs on this thread..." anywhoo, don't think anyone was trying to change your opinion after a while Gree, I think they just wanted you to understand HOW & WHY the events that transpired were congruent with XII Legion behavior/mindset. I think you would be willing to admit a accomplished captain such as Sarrin, would be much more valuable than Delvarus. But enough of that, loved this novel through and through as all AD-B work.  Didn't really think twice at Cyrene's resurrection seeing as how she was actually dead & returned through sorcery, while Loken was given the off-screen death, and we were supposed to be happy he returned. I don't know, I trust Aaron (we're on a first name basis) as an author, I don't think he'd cheat the fans or disrespect our intelligence. I personally want him to touch as many Legions as possible, aside from the one he never ever wants to write about. *Love Letter ended* 

[Artein]

 I personally want him to touch as many Legions as possible, aside from the one he never ever wants to write about.  

 

I still wonder which one is that. He writes Night Lords, Dark Angels, Word Bearers, World Eaters and Space Wolves. Also stated a few times that he wants to write Blood Angels.

White Scars? Iron Hands?

[Kol Saresk]

Alpha Legion. Just throwing it out there.

[DarKnight]

Alpha Legion. Just throwing it out there.

Don't know if it counts, but he portrayed Alpharius or whoever it was twice, in 'The First Heretic' & 'Aurelian'

[Excessus]

Aurelian doesn't count since it's permanently out of stock, and I don't remember his portrayal of him in the first heretic...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, Alpharius was definitely not in Aurelian as far as I can recall and a quick skim through definitely does not show him really. As far as The First Heretic, he wasn't really portrayed. Argel Tal saw the twins land and someone who may or may not have been Alpharius attended the Traitor's Briefing before Istvaan V. So I'm not too sure that counts as "writing about them" since there was virtually no details or background given.

[DarKnight]

Yeah, Alpharius was definitely not in Aurelian as far as I can recall and a quick skim through definitely does not show him really. As far as The First Heretic, he wasn't really portrayed. Argel Tal saw the twins land and someone who may or may not have been Alpharius attended the Traitor's Briefing before Istvaan V. So I'm not too sure that counts as "writing about them" since there was virtually no details or background given.

In the beginning of Aurelian when all of the Primarchs have assembled aboard the 'Vengeful Spirit' he's present in hololithic form & greets the traitors by giving the sign of the Aquila.

[Wade Garrett]

Yeah, Alpharius was definitely not in Aurelian as far as I can recall and a quick skim through definitely does not show him really. As far as The First Heretic, he wasn't really portrayed. Argel Tal saw the twins land and someone who may or may not have been Alpharius attended the Traitor's Briefing before Istvaan V. So I'm not too sure that counts as "writing about them" since there was virtually no details or background given.

In the beginning of Aurelian when all of the Primarchs have assembled aboard the 'Vengeful Spirit' he's present in hololithic form & greets the traitors by giving the sign of the Aquila.

Proof that was Alpharius and not Omegon, Inigo Pecht, or Sheed Ranko?

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough, although technically that's not a portrayal so much as a detail. But, for the sake of neutrality, since he has written the Legion Names Alpha Legion, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, Word Bearers and World Eaters, that just leaves the White Scars.

[DarKnight]

Yeah, Alpharius was definitely not in Aurelian as far as I can recall and a quick skim through definitely does not show him really. As far as The First Heretic, he wasn't really portrayed. Argel Tal saw the twins land and someone who may or may not have been Alpharius attended the Traitor's Briefing before Istvaan V. So I'm not too sure that counts as "writing about them" since there was virtually no details or background given.

In the beginning of Aurelian when all of the Primarchs have assembled aboard the 'Vengeful Spirit' he's present in hololithic form & greets the traitors by giving the sign of the Aquila.

Proof that was Alpharius and not Omegon, Inigo Pecht, or Sheed Ranko?

When I first mentioned it I said, Alpharius or whoever. I'm keen to the XX Legion modus operandi

Fair enough, although technically that's not a portrayal so much as a detail. But, for the sake of neutrality, since he has written the Legion Names Alpha Legion, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Sons of Horus, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, Word Bearers and World Eaters, that just leaves the White Scars.

He mentions the White Scars in 'Savage Weapons', when Alajos the Ninth Captain considers who can best him in combat amongst all the Astartes Legions. One of them is Jubal Khan of the White Scars.

[Kol Saresk]

So that means he has included every single Legion to some degree, shape or form, whether it be in depth portrayal, cameo appearance or one line mention. So... Back to square one?

 

Okay, let's collect the POVs from the Heresy series. Dark Angels, Night Lords, Word Bearers and World Eaters. Maybe Ultramarines. I don't recall Guilliman getting a POV but I could be mistaken. Now, if we take Legions that get a rather in depth portrayal(as in confirmed appearances in more than one scene an having an active role in those scenes) we get Space Wolves(Night of the Wolf, Betrayer), Ultramarines if we didn't get them before(The First Heretic, Betrayer), and the Thousand Sons(Magnus' appearances in Aurelian, Betrayer). That's seven Legions, which leaves eleven more.

 

Now, I'm sure I may have missed something. So as a sort of guidelines, as I said above, maybe restrict it to POVs and confirmed, multiple scenes with an active role in that scene, such as Sevatar's involvement in the War Briefing of Istvaan V in TFH.

[godking]

 

It would have been implausible had they not retaliated at all. She was immediately fired upon by the triarii and only the kine shield from the nearby librarian saved her. It's clear Angron respects a select group of people, Lotara being one of them as she doesn't bother with the niceties of rank (dispensing with the "My lords" and what not).

The fact that she was saved or was not slaughtered later is ridiculous.

What about her attitude is ridiculous to you exactly? Just because she isn't a legionnaire doesn't mean she cant show up one of the world eaters? She's Flag captain of the legion, she earned that rank and there's no way she got to that high a position in the world eaters without the dominant personality to back it up.

 

I'm just curious as to why you're so reticent to the idea of her as a character

She's a mortal and their Astartes, some of the most violent disrespectful Astartes around and I find it ridiculous that she actually shot one and managed to survive.

 

And to be perfectly blunt, you aren't going to change my opinion on this. I found that scene ridiculous and the character rather ridiculous. It's perfectly fine if some other people like her, but I don't and my opinion is not going to change on that subject.

 

To be perfectly blunt your opinion is foolish. 

 

If you do not understand the fact that Astartes cannot simply kill off valuable mortals especially if they are in the right then there nothing that can be said to change your opinion.

 

 

[Gree]

 

 

 

 

It would have been implausible had they not retaliated at all. She was immediately fired upon by the triarii and only the kine shield from the nearby librarian saved her. It's clear Angron respects a select group of people, Lotara being one of them as she doesn't bother with the niceties of rank (dispensing with the "My lords" and what not).

The fact that she was saved or was not slaughtered later is ridiculous.

What about her attitude is ridiculous to you exactly? Just because she isn't a legionnaire doesn't mean she cant show up one of the world eaters? She's Flag captain of the legion, she earned that rank and there's no way she got to that high a position in the world eaters without the dominant personality to back it up.

 

I'm just curious as to why you're so reticent to the idea of her as a character

She's a mortal and their Astartes, some of the most violent disrespectful Astartes around and I find it ridiculous that she actually shot one and managed to survive.

 

And to be perfectly blunt, you aren't going to change my opinion on this. I found that scene ridiculous and the character rather ridiculous. It's perfectly fine if some other people like her, but I don't and my opinion is not going to change on that subject.

 

 

To be perfectly blunt your opinion is foolish. 

 

If you do not understand the fact that Astartes cannot simply kill off valuable mortals especially if they are in the right then there nothing that can be said to change your opinion.

 

 

So you insult someone else's opinion simply because they disagree with you? How classy.

 

Look, it's a minor point that I barely gave much thought and only added in at the last second to my review. If I had known that people would raise this much fuss about it I would have never added it to my review. If I removed that section from my review would that make everyone happier?

[Noctus Cornix]

Alright guys, cool it and leave Gree alone. His opinion is his own and he's entitle to it. I don't care how much you disagree with it but you need to get off his back and let him keep to his opinion. We're here to discuss like adults, not insult each other like children.

 

I don't agree with Gree either but he is allowed to have his own opinion on the World Eaters. Each and every one of us has their own view on a Legion and no one's view is more important than the other's (not even AD-B's, sorry mate) where one person views a legion, another can view it in a completely different way based on their interpretations of the fluff.

[Captain Semper]

@ everybody: stick to the topic (which is to discuss the review of Betrayer). Personal attacks stop here.

[afropirg]

Also, Guilliman and the Ultramarines may have LOGISTICS, where everything is LOGISTICALLY ordered according to grand LOGISTICAL charts in order for maximum LOGISTICS efficency...but the World Eaters have HARPOONS! HARPOONS ON EVERYTHING! HARPOONS ON THE TITANS! THE BATTLE SHIPS! WHY AREN'T THERE HARPOONS ON THE DREADNAUGHTS AND ASTARTES! KHORNE, HONOR OUR BLOODSHED AND GRANT OUR REQUEST FOR MORE HARPOONS!

Yo dawg (War Hound ) I heard you like harpoons. So we put harpoons on your harpoons, so you can spear stuff while you spear stuff.

I so want to model a WE dread with a lightning claw that shoots out like a harpoon and drags other vehicles closer to it....