Mark of Calth-some comments and thoughts

[Gree]

Just bought the ebook and and done with my first reading. This is really not worth $15.99. I would suggest people to wait for the paperback version or for the price to drop.

Calth That Was was horrible, easily the worst part of the Anthology, but then again McNeill's Ultramarines work is usually pretty bad. The rest of the anthology ranged from mediocre to excellent. Deeper into Darkness was my favorite of the anthology, if only for the horror factor. Overall a mixed bag.

I'll probably post a more extensive review when I do a second reading. Should probably be around the length of my Betrayer review. If anyone else had read this it would be interesting to hear their opinions or thoughts.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

through the third story in it ... the entire anthology is really meh in my opinion. I may change my mind after rereading though

[KJB]

Best bit so far for me was seeing that Vulkan Lives is the next novel to be released...

 

Admittedly I'm not that far into it...

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Finished. Last three were the best. ADB, French, and Abnett.

So Oll Persson was born in Nineveh, so at the very least, before 612 BC (date of the Battle of Nineveh). He took part in the journey of the Argonauts, which would presumably put his birth date long before 612 BC, seeing as though (according to Wikipedia) Nineveh was settled ~6000 BC and was a notable city by ~3000 BC. 

In modern times, he spent time in Iraq and fought in Desert Storm with the Iraqis (heavily implied - mentions a Zaid Raheem in a T-62 "begging to die"). 

Saw the nuclear wars on Terra. 

Met the Emperor, and here's the most interesting bit; remember Grammaticus meeting Emps? And Emps acknowledging Grammaticus as a 'kindred spirit'? Well, he recognized Oll as the same. But Oll isn't a psyker. 

 

He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being.

‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’

 

Emps is a Perpetual too, then? IIRC he met Grammaticus before his first death, though, so at that point it would've been 'hey you're a psyker too'. But not with Oll.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Before I drop 16 bucks can somebody give me a run down of what each one covers and the legions in them?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Before I drop 16 bucks can somebody give me a run down of what each one covers and the legions in them?

The entire thing practically takes place on Calth, primarily in the caverns underneath the surface. There's an aside where Erebus visits Davin, and Oll Pious is running around to different planets and times, including prehistoric Terra. 

Calth That Was is Ultras kicking WB ass left and right, not much else. Athame is from the POV of the athame that Oll Pious wields in KNF and in Unmarked (in this anthology). The Underworld War is about the failed (and prophetic) journey of a WB sergeant trying to become one of the Gal Vorbak. Shards of Erebus is all about the Dark Apostle and his quest to learn warp teleportation/travel via athames. 

These were the stories of interest and the ones I remember the most. One of the stories was about the naval dude who let the Campanile in or somesuch, and it turns out that he's a host to a daemon ... Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to get it. Just read my spoiler up there, it's the only thing of interest in the anthology IMO.

[Gree]

Calth That Was is Ultras kicking WB ass left and right, not much else.

To further clarify for anyone interested, it starts with two hundred Ultramarines ambushing six hundred Word Bearers and annihilating them all without a single dead Ultramarine in return.

 

Yes, not a single dead Ultramarine in that skirmish, for six hundred dead Word Bearers. I said I wanted the Ultramarines to do better, but that's just ridiculous.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

Calth That Was is Ultras kicking WB ass left and right, not much else.

To further clarify for anyone interested, it starts with two hundred Ultramarines ambushing six hundred Word Bearers and annihilating them all without a single dead Ultramarine in return.

 

Yes, not a single dead Ultramarine in that skirmish, for six hundred dead Word Bearers. I said I wanted the Ultramarines to do better, but that's just ridiculous.

Let's be fair though, they mounted an ambush, killed off maybe half (or perhaps their own equal share in numbers) of the WB (a large majority if not all who had no ammo) while being on the high ground, then when the rest of the WB ran away Tawren blew them to smithereens with her orbital guns of doom. 

[jeremy1391]

 

 

Calth That Was is Ultras kicking WB ass left and right, not much else.

To further clarify for anyone interested, it starts with two hundred Ultramarines ambushing six hundred Word Bearers and annihilating them all without a single dead Ultramarine in return.

 

Yes, not a single dead Ultramarine in that skirmish, for six hundred dead Word Bearers. I said I wanted the Ultramarines to do better, but that's just ridiculous.

Well from a military standpoint the purpose of a properly executed ambush is to take little or no casualties.... And if your legion is supposed to be the most tactically flexible and sound I can see that happening. Especially since ambushing a few companies of word bearer fanatics doesn't seem like a stretch.

[Gree]

Let's be fair though, they mounted an ambush, killed off maybe half (or perhaps their own equal share in numbers) of the WB (a large majority if not all who had no ammo) while being on the high ground, then when the rest of the WB ran away Tawren blew them to smithereens with her orbital guns of doom.

Well from a military standpoint the purpose of a properly executed ambush is to take little or no casualties.... And if your legion is supposed to be the most tactically flexible and sound I can see that happening. Especially since ambushing a few companies of word bearer fanatics doesn't seem like a stretch.

Their still Astartes and all that implies. For them to succeed in not killing a single Ultramarine is utterly disgraceful and simply bad writing. Of course that's when I dismissed that novella as trash.

[Dosjetka]

While it can happen that a very well planned and executed ambush could result in minimal casualties, not losing a single Astartes to a force of 600 Word Bearers is just absolutely ridiculous.

[Wade Garrett]

Matt?

 

What are you doing at Graham Mcneil's typewriter?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

While it can happen that a very well planned and executed ambush could result in minimal casualties, not losing a single Astartes to a force of 600 Word Bearers is just absolutely ridiculous.

They had the high ground, with a ton more cover than the enemy. The WB initially return fire, but then the gunfire turns into sporadic, rare bursts because none of them have any ammunition left. The Army field artillery piece is somewhat effective, but the WB know that in order to get it aligned and ready to fire repeatedly they'd need more cover, because firing it like a conventional gun is going to be dreadfully ineffective. The only real numbers we get are dozens of WB dead, and just extrapolating off that, the UM kill perhaps a hundred, or less WB, before the traitors start running for the railhead terminal en masse over open ground. So Tawren then blows the rest up. I don't see what's so astounding about that. 

[Gree]

 

While it can happen that a very well planned and executed ambush could result in minimal casualties, not losing a single Astartes to a force of 600 Word Bearers is just absolutely ridiculous.

They had the high ground, with a ton more cover than the enemy. The WB initially return fire, but then the gunfire turns into sporadic, rare bursts because none of them have any ammunition left. The Army field artillery piece is somewhat effective, but the WB know that in order to get it aligned and ready to fire repeatedly they'd need more cover, because firing it like a conventional gun is going to be dreadfully ineffective. The only real numbers we get are dozens of WB dead, and just extrapolating off that, the UM kill perhaps a hundred, or less WB, before the traitors start running for the railhead terminal en masse over open ground. So Tawren then blows the rest up. I don't see what's so astounding about that.

What's so astounding is that the Word Bearers don't succeed in killing a single Ultramarine. Not a single one. I could accept the Ultramarines routing the Word Bearers with minor losses, but to not take a single loss while killing over six hundred Word Bearers? With seemingly every shot from the Ultramarines a killshot while the Word Bearers can only manage a few ineffectual potshots?

 

No sir, that's just bad writing. That's something you expect from the writers of the Expendables or Mat Ward at his worst. You could have replaced the Word Bearers with Vader's Stormtroopers and it would have probably played out the same, except the Stormtroopers would have retreated in better order.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Why is it astounding? They barely had ammo to begin with, and they got jumped. I mean, it's like 73 Easting IRL with just one casualty erased. They had superior wargear, the high ground, the jump, and backup in the form of space guns. AND THEY DIDN'T KILL OVER 600 WB, TAWREN DID. SHE SHOT THEM WITH AN ORBITAL GUN WHEN THEY RAN EN MASSE TO THE RAILHEAD TERMINAL. 

Here's the quote:

 

They have abandoned the field guns, knowing they are useless against warriors protected by power armour.

Dozens of Word Bearers are cut down as they cross the open ground, but hundreds more survive to reach the smoke-choked cover of the terminal. 

[Gree]

Why is it astounding? They barely had ammo, and they got jumped. I mean, it's like 73 Easting IRL with just one casualty erased. They had superior wargear, the high ground, the jump, and backup in the form of space guns.

 

And the Word Bearers are still Astartes with all that implies.One would expect six hundred Astartes to accomplish something at least, even in the condition they were in. The fact that they were slaughtered so easily without killing a single Ultramarine is simply disgraceful.

 

AND THEY DIDN'T KILL OVER 600 WB, TAWREN DID. SHE SHOT THEM WITH AN ORBITAL GUN WHEN THEY RAN EN MASSE TO THE RAILHEAD TERMINAL.

 

Calm down. All caps is not needed. And no, I didn't ignore Tawren, him blowing up the Word Bearers doesn't make the victory any less badly written or disgraceful.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

Why is it astounding? They barely had ammo, and they got jumped. I mean, it's like 73 Easting IRL with just one casualty erased. They had superior wargear, the high ground, the jump, and backup in the form of space guns.

 

And the Word Bearers are still Astartes with all that implies.One would expect six hundred Astartes to accomplish something at least, even in the condition they were in. The fact that they were slaughtered so easily without killing a single Ultramarine is simply disgraceful.

 

>>>AND THEY DIDN'T KILL OVER 600 WB, TAWREN DID. SHE SHOT THEM WITH AN ORBITAL GUN WHEN THEY RAN EN MASSE TO THE RAILHEAD TERMINAL.

 

Calm down. All caps is not needed. And no, I didn't ignore Tawren, him blowing up the Word Bearers doesn't make the victory any less badly written or disgraceful.

 

They're Astartes with barely any guns vs Astartes with guns in sniping positions on a ridge above them. I honestly am perfectly fine with the entire set up. And about 73 Easting; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting.

There wasn't a single Abrams lost. Wow. That's absurd, but quite obviously realistic. So it happens. I'm just going to start putting up crazy examples of lopsided battles in our own history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blood_River

 

I did all caps for those peeps who skim posts. They're going to scream and rail without reading the entire story. All caps will jar them out of it and make them think a little for a change.

[Gree]

They're Astartes with barely any guns vs Astartes with guns in sniping positions on a ridge above them. I honestly am perfectly fine with the entire set up.

One would reasonably expect six hundred Astartes to kill even a single foe. These are Astartes, not Guardsmen. You can be perfectly fine with the set up, but that's not going to stop people from pointing out how badly written it is.

I did all caps for those peeps who skim posts. They're going to scream and rail without reading the entire story. All caps will jar them out of it and make them think a little for a change.

So you don't really have any faith in the abilities of posters to judge for themselves is that it?People are able to read posts perfectly fine.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

They're Astartes with barely any guns vs Astartes with guns in sniping positions on a ridge above them. I honestly am perfectly fine with the entire set up.

One would reasonably expect six hundred Astartes to kill even a single foe. These are Astartes, not Guardsmen. You can be perfectly fine with the set up, but that's not going to stop people from pointing out how badly written it is.

>>I did all caps for those peeps who skim posts. They're going to scream and rail without reading the entire story. All caps will jar them out of it and make them think a little for a change.

So you don't really have any faith in the abilities of posters to judge for themselves is that it?People are able to read posts perfectly fine.

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have no issue with McNeill and how he wrote it. It makes perfect sense to me.

No, not too much faith. People will latch on to one view and stick with it. I'm just throwing the other side out there for people to judge for themselves in a way that they will be able to see it without their eyes glossing over. It happens to me all too often.

[Ubermensch Commander]

 

They're Astartes with barely any guns vs Astartes with guns in sniping positions on a ridge above them. I honestly am perfectly fine with the entire set up.

One would reasonably expect six hundred Astartes to kill even a single foe. These are Astartes, not Guardsmen. You can be perfectly fine with the set up, but that's not going to stop people from pointing out how badly written it is.

>I did all caps for those peeps who skim posts. They're going to scream and rail without reading the entire story. All caps will jar them out of it and make them think a little for a change.

So you don't really have any faith in the abilities of posters to judge for themselves is that it?People are able to read posts perfectly fine.

 

 

The caps are likely to keep people from taking excessively negative account of the scene and taking it as an accurate description of the event.  A reasonable thing to do, in extremely limited usage, to draw attention to the point.

 

As Vaddon pointed out, it was not the Ultramarines that killed 600 WB, it was the Ultramarines, a bit of good planning, and a device of massive destructive potential. Essentially they got sucker punched by a Titan level weapon.  

 

That sounds about as reasonable as the Ultramarine fleet being taken out while docked or getting plasma pistoled in the face by an ally at a dinner table.

It pushes it, certainly, but it is a blessed sight better than having a Titan not obliterate an entire contingent of Word Bearers milling in an open valley, only to have it walk forward (never mind those weapons miles long ranges) into a canyon and have infiltrating Terminators jump onboard and take it over, a scene that occurred in Dark Apostle or Dark Creed. 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

First of all, this is 40k..charging into melee when you have a three to one numbers advantage is a perfectly valid strategy and renders the ammunition thing moot.

 

That story is bloody ridiculous, if it was reversed with Word Bearers or the Alpha Legion killing three times their number in Ultramarines (or Throne forbid, Space Wolves) with no losses the screaming would rip open a real life Eye of Terror.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

First of all, this is 40k..charging into melee when you have a three to one numbers advantage is a perfectly valid strategy and renders the ammunition thing moot.

 

That story is bloody ridiculous, if it was reversed with Word Bearers or the Alpha Legion killing three times their number in Ultramarines (or Throne forbid, Space Wolves) with no losses the screaming would rip open a real life Eye of Terror.

Practical: charge into combat, because this is 40k.

Theoretical: shoot 'em until they all start running into a kill box for Tawren to blow them up in.

I would argue that the WB did kill absurdly high amounts of UM with very few casualties in the opening salvoes of the betrayal on Calth. I mean, they literally took half or more of the entire defense fleet in like, a minute. And then they also blew up a Star Fort in 5 seconds, or something absurd like that.

[Gree]

The caps are likely to keep people from taking excessively negative account of the scene and taking it as an accurate description of the event.  A reasonable thing to do, in extremely limited usage, to draw attention to the point.

No, one should draw attention to their point with a fine argument, not screaming for attention.

As Vaddon pointed out, it was not the Ultramarines that killed 600 WB, it was the Ultramarines, a bit of good planning, and a device of massive destructive potential. Essentially they got sucker punched by a Titan level weapon.

 

That sounds about as reasonable as the Ultramarine fleet being taken out while docked or getting plasma pistoled in the face by an ally at a dinner table.

No it doesn't. One is the Word Bearers ambushing allies who can't even imagine Astartes fighting each other. The other is the Ultramarines ambushing a combat battered force and routing them without a single loss in return. One could expect six hundred Astartes to at least kill a single Ultramarine, even with limited ammunition available. The fact that they got wiped out so easily by this seemingly impeccable killshot Ultramarines is just bad writing.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

The caps are likely to keep people from taking excessively negative account of the scene and taking it as an accurate description of the event.  A reasonable thing to do, in extremely limited usage, to draw attention to the point.

No, it looks like an immature way to draw attention to oneself in order to prove their point.

>>As Vaddon pointed out, it was not the Ultramarines that killed 600 WB, it was the Ultramarines, a bit of good planning, and a device of massive destructive potential. Essentially they got sucker punched by a Titan level weapon.

 

That sounds about as reasonable as the Ultramarine fleet being taken out while docked or getting plasma pistoled in the face by an ally at a dinner table.

No it doesn't. One is the Word Bearers ambushing allies who can't even imagine Astartes fighting each other. The other is the Ultramarines ambushing a combat battered force and routing them without a single loss in return. One could expect six hundred Astartes to at least kill a single Ultramarine, even with limited ammunition available. The fact that they got wiped out so easily by this seemingly impeccable killshot Ultramarines is just bad writing.

 

If I wanted to draw attention to myself, I'd be using all-caps everywhere. So....

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/2yTw9K0qcMB2_yEI11VgGA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0yODE7cT04NTt3PTUwMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2013-04-26/b5f6eeb4-2a93-4f81-a0b4-d44eb110eb3e_jets9.gif

I mean, these guys haven't been resupplied in a long time. They have very little ammo. How are they going to kill UM? Charge their position? In that case, all of them really would've gotten killed by the UM, and then people would be crying that the WB aren't that stupid. 

[Gree]

If I wanted to draw attention to myself, I'd be using all-caps everywhere. So....

Reread my post, I edited it.

I mean, these guys haven't been resupplied in a long time. They have very little ammo. How are they going to kill UM? Charge their position?

I thought you said you wanted to agree to disagree on this?

 

EDIT: Never mind. I've already explained myself several times over and it's obvious that nothing I say will make your change your position. I'm done with this.