Mark of Calth-some comments and thoughts

[Gree]

And again, expectation does not equal reality. Just because he can do something, doesn't mean he will.

 

It's certainly more plausible than Tyson being able to do nothing at all.

 

A force winning a bloodless victory is not impossible per say, but it’s certainly implausible. Even the most devastating and one-sided battles usually have both sides taking some losses, even if it’s minor on the winner's side. Having an Astartes force wiped out without getting a single bloody nose in is even more implausible, even if they were caught in a disadvantageous position by other Astartes.

 

Having the Ultramarines take even a small handful of losses would have made it better written and more plausible. As it is it smacks of the boring Wardian curbstomp that you would expect some newbie writing his DIY chapter to do. But then again one-sided curbstomps are usually boring and indicative of bad writing, even fi one wants to justify them by circumstances.

 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

Agreed. It's not that whole "outnumbered and they still win!" that hacks me off.

 

It's the part where 600 Word Bearers cannot inflict one. Single. Solitary. Casualty.

 

Low on ammo are not, they missed with EVERY SHOT THEY FIRED?

 

Not a single one of them could reach the Ultramarines line and stab Battle Brother Leroy Tunicus Crimson Porkins Darklighter Jenkins in the chest?

 

The Iron Hands, being attacked from the front and the rear after fighting for hours at Isstvan V, with  enemy artillery, Titans, and gunships dropping Hell on them still managed to inflict casualties on the Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and the Iron Warriors.

 

And yet the Ultramarines can take down 600 Word Bearers without losing one of their own.

 

Shenanigans! Shenanigans I say!

[Apothecary Vaddon]

....there must've been something else more interesting than this one thing in the anthology, right? Like, say, I dunno, Oll Pious? Or, perhaps, Oll Pious. You're telling me that no one has any conspiracy theories floating around about what Oll is going to do, who the Emps is, and what the last deed that the athame will undertake?

[Augustus]

I am curious who wrote that last little bit about "faith" and signed it "N."

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yeah, that was an odd bit. It seems to have been addressed in part to Oll...a loved one, perhaps?

[depthcharge12]

While I can agree about force multipliers, Astartes are much better trained and armored to deal with those things. It's why they're astartes.

 

Imagine Astartes as navy seals with more guys. Or hell, even rangers or force recon. If ambushed or fired on they have training and possible experience to deal with it and aren't brainwashed of fear. There are firing drills routinely practiced of retreating fire. A few guys lay down fire while some retreat. It's a tactical withdrawal.

 

Read stories of seal team 10. They got ambushed by 200 to 350 men. They had 4 guys. They didn't freak out even when their radio didn't work to get support and they had been in the field for days. They killed around 80 Taliban before their first member got hit while withdrawing down a mountain. The Taliban had the higher ground the whole firefight.They seals killed up to forty more and lost three members with the fourth escaping with broken legs and a handful of ammo. They broke the back of the Taliban cell in that area and the rangers came on and annihilated the rest. 'Merica

 

Now think of the word beares. They have equal if not better traing than seals, and at a young age too. Plus armor, a few bolt rounds, and even fanaticism can propel them.

 

And about the one handed typing of McNeil, I think it might have been actually the ghost writing of Matt. Matt is actually one handed writing while fapping to his work with the other hand.

 

Sorry bout that last part

[Kol Saresk]

Except that the Word Bearers were in a state of shock(page 57), they lacked unit cohesion(page 56) and only some of the Word Bearer actually had enough ammo to fire back(page 58). And when those few ran out of shells, the Word Bearers ran. And not towards the Ultramarines, but away from them. Hundreds actually survived the initial ambush(page 59). It was the orbital bombardment that did the majority of the killing, not the Ultramarines.

 

And its not the Ultramarines didn't get hit either. Twenty were blown off their feet by an artillery shot(page 58). It didn't say no one got injured. It just said no one died.

[Legionator]

Except that the Word Bearers were in a state of shock(page 57), they lacked unit cohesion(page 56) and only some of the Word Bearer actually had enough ammo to fire back(page 58). And when those few ran out of shells, the Word Bearers ran. And not towards the Ultramarines, but away from them. Hundreds actually survived the initial ambush(page 59). It was the orbital bombardment that did the majority of the killing, not the Ultramarines.

 

And its not the Ultramarines didn't get hit either. Twenty were blown off their feet by an artillery shot(page 58). It didn't say no one got injured. It just said no one died.

 

In that case, it makes logic. Though, one can wonder why Word Bearers didn't charge to Ultramarine lines with melee weapons? Probably it is because they were Word Bearers, hence gutless, mindless and incompetent.

[Kol Saresk]

The story says that they're main objective wasn't fighting but rather to team up with Foedrall Fell and his forces. So the only conclusion that reaches my mind is run towards your friends and hope the enemy follows into their guns. It just so happened that the Word Bearers ran back into the enemy's guns.

[Kais Klip]

With the disclaimer of not having read Mark of Calth, I do want to say that while I can accept such instances as realistic within the narrative, I would not want to read this type of writing provided were it consistent. What really surprises me is that I am assuming this no-losses factor is fact; are you lads absolutely sure it isn't valid to claim it is simply a bit of new-found Ultramarines propaganda? To support this point is the fact that such a scenario would surely sound unbelievable to the author, so the only reason he did not push it to an acceptable level of unlikeliness (say, a handful of casualties) would be because he was relying on the reader's sense of common sense to kick in and spot something is amiss. And this is only due to the only fact that it is McNeill's writing; were it from someone else I would accept the instance as "canon" but I would be doubtful of reading that author's work again.

I would like to mention the point I made in the last page of this thread, which concerns your points of the participants being Astartes and examples of lesser troops like Guardsmen; provided both sides are Astartes, the fact of proportionality comes into play, which means that Astartes losses would be similar to losses suffered by proportionally equal forces (humans vs humans, eldar vs eldar). This means that arguments paraphrased as "while a human equivalent would see many dead on the ambushing side, they are Astartes, so..." are invalid in my mind.

The point is that the end result of any proportionally-equal confrontation would be the same, even if the means to get to it were not; 60 guardsmen vs 60 guardsmen engaged in ranged confrontation would see 30 dead in total, thus we can assume that 30 Astartes vs 30 Astartes (be it in ranged or melee confontation) would see 15 Astartes dead nonetheless.

Ruling out any deaths in the long-term (Where Astartes biology would come into play) which were not mentioned in the novel (ie some UM might have died from their wounds weeks later);

if
y Guardsmen vs y Guardsmen = x Guardsmen down
then
y Astartes vs y Astartes = x Astartes down

In terms of this scenario: I would expect to see as many casualties on the Ultramarine side as I would see experienced by an Army force engaging its counterpart in the same conditions.

Edit: To bring this post more on-topic: I would not stand behind anyone that says it is impossible to pass every single one of 200 3+ armour saves ( ). What I think is more worthy of discussion is: why did McNeill write it like he did?

[Blindhamster]

personally, I've not read it, but have listened to it, and overall I quite enjoyed the majority of it.

 

the scene so many people take issue with really isn't all that bad, perhaps it's the speed it is read at, but the author really seems to take pains to show just how unprepared the Word Bearers are, he makes it clear they are actually panicked (don't forget marines are neither fearless or atsknf during the HH), poorly equipped, in damaged armour, barely equipped in terms of ammo, in low ground, completely devoid of cover... etc etc. Honestly the group felt like they were in the absolute worst possible position they could be. 

 

also keep in mind that actually very few of the word bearers seem to actually die prior to the bombardment, and they actually flee pretty damn quickly, probably due to the above and knowing they're in a losing position.

 

Now, if this was 40k, I'd agree that it's hard to accept the idea of the marines not suffering casualties, but if the ruleset used was something like say... Deathwatch and those exact circumstances were put in place, it'd be totally possible rule wise. Remember that 40k is overly simplified.

[Legionator]

 

 

 

With the disclaimer of not having read Mark of Calth, I do want to say that while I can accept such instances as realistic within the narrative, I would not want to read this type of writing provided were it consistent. What really surprises me is that I am assuming this no-losses factor is fact; are you lads absolutely sure it isn't valid to claim it is simply a bit of new-found Ultramarines propaganda? To support this point is the fact that such a scenario would surely sound unbelievable to the author, so the only reason he did not push it to an acceptable level of unlikeliness (say, a handful of casualties) would be because he was relying on the reader's sense of common sense to kick in and spot something is amiss. And this is only due to the only fact that it is McNeill's writing; were it from someone else I would accept the instance as "canon" but I would be doubtful of reading that author's work again.

 

I would like to mention the point I made in the last page of this thread, which concerns your points of the participants being Astartes and examples of lesser troops like Guardsmen; provided both sides are Astartes, the fact of proportionality comes into play, which means that Astartes losses would be similar to losses suffered by proportionally equal forces (humans vs humans, eldar vs eldar). This means that arguments paraphrased as "while a human equivalent would see many dead on the ambushing side, they are Astartes, so..." are invalid in my mind.

 

The point is that the end result of any proportionally-equal confrontation would be the same, even if the means to get to it were not; 60 guardsmen vs 60 guardsmen engaged in ranged confrontation would see 30 dead in total, thus we can assume that 30 Astartes vs 30 Astartes (be it in ranged or melee confontation) would see 15 Astartes dead nonetheless. 

 

Ruling out any deaths in the long-term (Where Astartes biology would come into play) which were not mentioned in the novel (ie some UM might have died from their wounds weeks later);

 

if

y Guardsmen vs y Guardsmen = x Guardsmen down

then

y Astartes vs y Astartes = x Astartes down

 

In terms of this scenario: I would expect to see as many casualties on the Ultramarine side as I would see experienced by an Army force engaging its counterpart in the same conditions.

 

 

In the Battle of Nagashino Okehazama, Oda Nobunaga's 2 000 men defeated 40 000 men. Sun Tzu says "In war, numbers alone confer no advantage.". UM had the advantage of orbital bombartment, this alone can make this stiuation possible.

[Kais Klip]

With the disclaimer of not having read Mark of Calth, I do want to say that while I can accept such instances as realistic within the narrative, I would not want to read this type of writing provided were it consistent. What really surprises me is that I am assuming this no-losses factor is fact; are you lads absolutely sure it isn't valid to claim it is simply a bit of new-found Ultramarines propaganda? To support this point is the fact that such a scenario would surely sound unbelievable to the author, so the only reason he did not push it to an acceptable level of unlikeliness (say, a handful of casualties) would be because he was relying on the reader's sense of common sense to kick in and spot something is amiss. And this is only due to the only fact that it is McNeill's writing; were it from someone else I would accept the instance as "canon" but I would be doubtful of reading that author's work again.

I would like to mention the point I made in the last page of this thread, which concerns your points of the participants being Astartes and examples of lesser troops like Guardsmen; provided both sides are Astartes, the fact of proportionality comes into play, which means that Astartes losses would be similar to losses suffered by proportionally equal forces (humans vs humans, eldar vs eldar). This means that arguments paraphrased as "while a human equivalent would see many dead on the ambushing side, they are Astartes, so..." are invalid in my mind.

The point is that the end result of any proportionally-equal confrontation would be the same, even if the means to get to it were not; 60 guardsmen vs 60 guardsmen engaged in ranged confrontation would see 30 dead in total, thus we can assume that 30 Astartes vs 30 Astartes (be it in ranged or melee confontation) would see 15 Astartes dead nonetheless.

Ruling out any deaths in the long-term (Where Astartes biology would come into play) which were not mentioned in the novel (ie some UM might have died from their wounds weeks later);

if

y Guardsmen vs y Guardsmen = x Guardsmen down

then

y Astartes vs y Astartes = x Astartes down

In terms of this scenario: I would expect to see as many casualties on the Ultramarine side as I would see experienced by an Army force engaging its counterpart in the same conditions.

In the Battle of Nagashino, Oda Nobunaga's 2 000 men defeated 40 000 men. Sun Tzu says "In war, numbers alone confer no advantage.". UM had the advantage of orbital bombartment, this alone can make this stiuation possible.

You misunderstand my only point. It be thus (couldn't resist): How many men, due to injury, could not fight immediately after the Battle of Nagashino? I would expect the same number (to not be able to fight immediately after) were you to replace the 42,000 men with 42,000 Astartes (I'm on a roll with maths today). I'm saying one's reaction (whatever it may be) should be the same to this scenario as it would be were the Astartes replaced by Guardsmen. My point is just that; somewhat offtopic, debating an earlier post, and not saying the written outcome is impossible.

To bring my latter post more on-topic: I would not stand behind anyone that says it is impossible to pass every single one of 200 3+ armour saves ( ).

What I think is more worthy of discussion is: why did McNeill write it like he did?

[depthcharge12]

The only safe way....is to nuke them from orbit.....

[Kol Saresk]

Kais Klip: To try and reply without giving too much of the story away, when they get back to camp and report zero losses, the person hearing the report is kind of surprised. However, this is the only time in the book where the Ultramarines have zero losses and event hat one time is treated as a novelty, not a regularity.

 

And as I said earlier, twenty Ultramarines(specifically mentioned) are shown to have at least been knocked off their feet and no losses does not equal no wounded so there are at least twenty Ultramarines who have the potential to be wounded so it isn't some mystical "We 200 walked down the hills with bolters aflame, the righteous fury of the Ultramarines made Manifest!" action, just two hundred Marines who happened to have gotten lucky and found the six hundred Word Bearers who weren't willing to put up a fight and were dumb enough to be herded into a killbox. As Jeske would say it, the XVII was "unintelligent" that day.

[Legionator]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I think is more worthy of discussion is: why did McNeill write it like he did?

 

Probably Mr. McNeill wanted to emphasize the power of the Codex like he did in "Rules of Engagement".  Well disciplined 200 men can defeat 600 of their equals without suffering any casualty with the proper use of tactics (Codex).

 

BTW, we disregard the terrain. UM probably had the advantage cover and high ground. WB's lack of ammunition and terrain can explain "zero loss".

[Wade Garrett]

Word Bearers.

The Word Bearers in Know No Fear who repeatedly charge Ultramarine positions singing about the glory of dying for the gods of Chaos, who taunt Ultramarines to kill them so it will unleash the daemons in their brains, Word Bearers, the Legion the other Traitor Legions think are creepy religous fanatics, run away. Sure. Why not. And in the next book, the Ultramarines can kill Iron Warriors who forget to fortify their positions. And then they can beat a group of Alpha Legionaries who charge straight at them while screaming "HYDRA DOMINATUS!". And then the Night Lords...would totally run away in that predicament, actually. But that's the point. The WORD BEARERS are not the same as the NIGHT LORDS.

 

People keep hammering on the lack of ammunition thing, but how many times have ranged weapons been the deciding factor in Astartes on Astartes actions in the Heresy? It always winds up with fists and chainswords and people headbutting each other in the face, bolters bedamned.

[Legionator]

Word Bearers.

The Word Bearers in Know No Fear who repeatedly charge Ultramarine positions singing about the glory of dying for the gods of Chaos, who taunt Ultramarines to kill them so it will unleash the daemons in their brains, Word Bearers, the Legion the other Traitor Legions think are creepy religous fanatics, run away. Sure. Why not. And in the next book, the Ultramarines can kill Iron Warriors who forget to fortify their positions. And then they can beat a group of Alpha Legionaries who charge straight at them while screaming "HYDRA DOMINATUS!". And then the Night Lords...would totally run away in that predicament, actually. But that's the point. The WORD BEARERS are not the same as the NIGHT LORDS.

 

People keep hammering on the lack of ammunition thing, but how many times have ranged weapons been the deciding factor in Astartes on Astartes actions in the Heresy? It always winds up with fists and chainswords and people headbutting each other in the face, bolters bedamned.

 

Unlike Word Bearers, UM have brains. They can think to position on cliffs, barricade the passages, fortify their position against melee attack.

[Kol Saresk]

Probably Mr. McNeill wanted to emphasize the power of the Codex like he did in "Rules of Engagement".  Well disciplined 200 men can defeat 600 of their equals without suffering any casualty with the proper use of tactics (Codex).

 

BTW, we disregard the terrain. UM probably had the advantage cover and high ground. WB's lack of ammunition and terrain can explain "zero loss".

There wasn't any mention of the Codex per se, but I guess that could be implied without using as many words. But you are right, the UM were firing down from a ridge(page 57). So basically, the Ultramarines had a crap ton of force multipliers working for them plus the mental state of the Word Bearers they engaged. Granted, it is still an improbable outcome. But then again, it was improbable for me to hit a bad puddle of water, slam into asphalt at sixty miles an hour and not only get up right afterward, but not even break a bone. Hurt like hell, but I am thankful that I seem to have a knack of beating the odds.

 

And Wade, in Know No Fear, the Word Bearers thought they were winning. They thought they would break the Ultramarines at Calth and march away with the head of Roboute Guilliman on a pike. And then what happened? Kor Phaeron had his heart ripped out. Kor Phaeron ran away. The entire Word Bearers fleet ran away but not after poisoning Calth's Sun and left all of their brethren on the planet to die. What would you do? Not, what would you do as a Word Bearer. I mean if you were there at the moment of your greatest triumph and watched it turn into the worst defeat of your life knowing that your brothers abandoned you and that no one would be coming to help you, what would you do? Have you read The Underworld War yet? I wonder how many other Word Bearers actually questioned themselves and their gods while fighting underground, knowing no one would ever come to help them. Me, personally I being the person I am would go "Screw it!" and run into the biggest group of Ultramarines I could find. But that's me. That's not you. That's not the Word Bearers who were in this particular scenario. That's one of the problems I have always found with the Legion mentality. You are assuming that every Traitor Marine has the exact same state of mind just because they have the same paint on their armor and the same icon on their shoulder. But they don't/

[Legionator]

@Kol_Saresk: Codex can be written later but it was present in Guilliman's and UM officers' minds. This ambush can be considered as a "Codexical Approach".

 

Calth was purge for WB, Erebus and his co. selected the most fanatic Word Beares whose minds were clouded with the hatred against the UM. They would fight until bleed dry. Wade Garrett has a point.

[Wade Garrett]

Unlike Word Bearers, UM have brains. They can think to position on cliffs, barricade the passages, fortify their position against melee attack.

 

And yet on multiple occasions in Know No Fear, Betrayer, and the Uriel Ventris series they wind up fighting in melee. Ultramarines CHAPTER Marneus Calgar got slashed up trying to fight hand to hand with the Swarmlord.

 

Strange. It's almost like Warhammer 40,000 combat, at least among the Astartes, is a return to ancient times when missle weapons were rarely if ever the deciding factor in battle. Except when Graham McNeil needs to make the Ultramarines look GLORIOUS as their puny enemies FLEE FROM THE RIGHTEOUS THUNDER OF THEIR MIGHTY GUNS like the DOGS THAT THEY ARE.

[Legionator]

 

Unlike Word Bearers, UM have brains. They can think to position on cliffs, barricade the passages, fortify their position against melee attack.

 

And yet on multiple occasions in Know No Fear, Betrayer, and the Uriel Ventris series they wind up fighting in melee. Ultramarines CHAPTER Marneus Calgar got slashed up trying to fight hand to hand with the Swarmlord.

 

Strange. It's almost like Warhammer 40,000 combat, at least among the Astartes, is a return to ancient times when missle weapons were rarely if ever the deciding factor in battle. Except when Graham McNeil needs to make the Ultramarines look GLORIOUS as their puny enemies FLEE FROM THE RIGHTEOUS THUNDER OF THEIR MIGHTY GUNS like the DOGS THAT THEY ARE.

 

If you were able to call orbital bombartment against the enemy, would you fight in melee? I doubt even the dumbest World Eater would do that.

[Kais Klip]

Pardon for not detecting the sarcasm, but that return to melee is exactly what happens; "war comes full circle" and the Thunder Warriors/Astartes' biggest praise is being engineered to specifically fight the wars of old, a fact directly explained in The Last Church and Betrayer, amongst others.

 

Again, remember the outcome of Astartes vs Astartes is exactly the same as men vs men.

 

 

 

 

Unlike Word Bearers, UM have brains. They can think to position on cliffs, barricade the passages, fortify their position against melee attack.

 

 

And yet on multiple occasions in Know No Fear, Betrayer, and the Uriel Ventris series they wind up fighting in melee. Ultramarines CHAPTER Marneus Calgar got slashed up trying to fight hand to hand with the Swarmlord.

 

Strange. It's almost like Warhammer 40,000 combat, at least among the Astartes, is a return to ancient times when missle weapons were rarely if ever the deciding factor in battle. Except when Graham McNeil needs to make the Ultramarines look GLORIOUS as their puny enemies FLEE FROM THE RIGHTEOUS THUNDER OF THEIR MIGHTY GUNS like the DOGS THAT THEY ARE.

 

If you were able to call orbital bombartment against the enemy, would you fight in melee? I doubt event the dumbest World Eater would do that.

I'm afraid I caught you on that one; Angron at Istvaan III.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I find it amusing that because people have become so used to the ridiculously over the top and nonsensical depictions of combat in some 40K stories that glorify hand to hand combat, that when they are confronted by a story in which one side uses rational, well planned out tactics, suddenly the story is "unbelievable" and "crap". 

[Kol Saresk]

And just like in such a fight with men vs men, an Astartes vs Astartes fight is going to have just as many mental as well as physical variables. Just because Space Marines are mentally hardier than mortals does not mean their minds cannot break. It might take more effort or simply the right amount of force in the right location(or situation I guess) to achieve that result, but it can happen.

 

On the case of the World Eaters calling in orbital bombardments, if Betrayal is anything to go by, they would do the melee while calling in the orbital bombardment on the enemy three ranks back from where they're standing.