Legionator Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Yep, World Eaters are dumber than I've imagined Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Not necessarily dumber, just that they really like the bass in their raves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I find it amusing that because people have become so used to the ridiculously over the top and nonsensical depictions of combat in some 40K stories that glorify hand to hand combat, that when they are confronted by a story in which one side uses rational, well planned out tactics, suddenly the story is "unbelievable" and "crap". Exactly how many battles between superstrong dudes in bullet proof armor who can also block bullets with swords have you witnessed? Must be a bunch for you to be able to declare what's realistic and what's crap with such authority. What happened in Mark of Calth is that all through the Heresy and every other Black Library work, we've been shown combat working a certain way, except that suddenly, when the Ultramarines need a dramatic win, Combat works completely differently. It'd be like if Disney has Mon Calamari Star Cruisers killing Star Destroyers in the Episode VII movie by ramming them to pieces, after six films showing that starship combat in Star Wars Does Not Work That Way. Also, in Betrayer Khârn argues for destroying an Ultramarine massed shield wall formation with an orbital bombardment. Everyone ignores him to charge straight at the enemy because RAAAAWWWRRR! This is a completely accurate depiction with no exaggeration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I dunno, I've played enough 40K to know that 3+ saves aren't all they're cracked up to be, and read enough Black Library novels to know that Power Armor is made of invincibility and polished with Chuck Norris sweat when it needs to be, and tissue paper when it does not, lol. So yeah, that combined with my other areas of expertise, I'm fairly confident I can call myself an authority. Or at least poke a little bit of fun at all the invective. And trust me, I'm the last guy on the planet to defend a Graham McNeill story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 1, 2013 Author Share Posted May 1, 2013 I find it amusing that because people have become so used to the ridiculously over the top and nonsensical depictions of combat in some 40K stories that glorify hand to hand combat, that when they are confronted by a story in which one side uses rational, well planned out tactics, suddenly the story is "unbelievable" and "crap". Given the statements used, I might assume this is directed at me. As stated before, my issue is not with the tactics used. It's more due to the utterly bloodless nature of the Ultramarine victory. Had they taken even a few dead, very minor losses, I would have been satisfied. But that did not happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 What happened in Mark of Calth is that all through the Heresy and every other Black Library work, we've been shown combat working a certain way, except that suddenly, when the Ultramarines need a dramatic win, Combat works completely differently. It'd be like if Disney has Mon Calamari Star Cruisers killing Star Destroyers in the Episode VII movie by ramming them to pieces, after six films showing that starship combat in Star Wars Does Not Work That Way. This seems kinda silly to say. There has never been any consistency to the Black Library novels. In fact, if anything, the only thing consistent with the Black Library is inconsistency. Hence all the arguing over every detail of these books and the endless discussions about why and what of characters/Legions/battles. I can tell you that my interpretation or Lorgar rarely goes unchallenged, and I base mine on years of doing reading, editing and writing on a professional level. ;) I think this is you and others having selected a vision for the universe you prefer, and railing against one that doesn't conform to that ideal, rather than based on any kind of concrete "truth". And no, I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. Just pointing out a trend in the discussion I found to be somewhat humorous given the nature of the subject. Like I said, I haven't read the story. And it's a Graham McNeill story, so by all means I, like the Ghostbusters, am read to believe you, and it could be utter garbage. I just don't know if the simple fact of a prepared ambush annihilating an under-armed force being fired upon from a superior position and then subjected to orbital artillery strikes is so inherently unbelievable. If you guys said the language of the story suggested a heavy Ultramarines bias, that would be one thing. Though I don't know if I'd buy that either. The Ultramarines novels make the Ultramarines out to be so stupid, I think McNeill secretly hates them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Guy guys guys, don't be unfair with Graham McNeill. He is a member of Secret Society of Awesome Bald Authors of Black Library. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I dunno, I've played enough 40K to know that 3+ saves aren't all they're cracked up to be, and read enough Black Library novels to know that Power Armor is made of invincibility and polished with Chuck Norris sweat when it needs to be, and tissue paper when it does not, lol. So yeah, that combined with my other areas of expertise, I'm fairly confident I can call myself an authority. Or at least poke a little bit of fun at all the invective. And trust me, I'm the last guy on the planet to defend a Graham McNeill story. :lol: Point to you, sir. I'm going to go out on a limb here (glances at favorite Chapter in profile) and say one reason Mark is sending me up a wall is that my own sacred cow is being slaughtered therein. But I still feel confident in stating that more 40k fights (in the fluff, at least) get decided by fighting hand to hand with swords instead of fire teams calling down holy Hell from artillery, air support, and other high tech awesomeness. Which is the opposite of real life war, as far as I can judge from the comfort of my armchair, anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Well, take heart in that when the Word Bearers used strategery and sneaky dickbaggery, they smashed the entire Ultramarines fleet at anchor and slaughterized them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 And Wade, that's a yes and no. There's an old short story in the Let the Galaxy Burn anthology about some guy with something called "the words of blood" who led a Khorne warhost. The Space Marines fighting him would just shoot until they got too close and then retreat and kept repeating it until the warhost turned on itself. Istvaan III, there was a comment made that the Loyalist Death Guard hadn't been in contact since Mortarion landed and explosions could be seen in the distance along with the sounds of weaponsfire. Gaunt's Ghost and other Imperial Guardsmen stories, very rarely is melee an issue and when it is, it is very rarely pure melee. The reality is that 40k actually shows a wide variety of combat. Melee is the most dramatic for the modern audience because it's not something we see a whole lot of. Are guns cool and amazing and all that jazz? Yes. But look at Star Wars with the Lightsaber. Star Trek with the bat'leth. 40k with the powerswords, chainweapons and such. If it had been a guardsmen story, along with being even more unbelievable, it would be rationalized as "they wanted to keep the Word Bearers out of range." Even if I were a Night Lord Commander and I had a force of 200 versus 6000, my primary objective would be "Keep them out of melee for as long as possible until we can drop a bomb on there heads." Granted, I would probably try to lay mines or litter the area with some sort of flammables or explosive material but that's just me. I don't like the Night Lords because I'm a saidst but rather I get their line of thinking. The reality is that Graham McNeill took the logical approach and just made the use of some rather smart tactics. And because he was writing for the Ultramarines, he added in that small amount of improbability that everyone survived. Thankfully he didn't try the "without a scratch approach." Am I personally a fan of this? No. I'm a bloody Night Lords fan. I sacrifice a goat in thanks and do a little jig around the bonfire every time a Loyalist dies.(Not literally) But I do see how it makes sense and that while improbable, it is entirely possible considering all the factors that are present, such as having the high ground, ammunition, enemy's lack of ammunition, the mental state of the Word Bearers as well as superior support fire in the form of orbital bombardment. Were there a million and one ways it could have gone wrong or differently? Yes. Was it fanservice? Yes. Was it some magical thing that would never ever ever ever ever happen in real life? No. It could very well happen in real life that two hundred better equipped soldiers could run into 600 less equipped soldiers and with the aid of artillery, completely slaughter them with no casualties. Again, could. On a side note and relating to the overall topic, did anyone else read The Traveler and think of the Dr. Who Episode Midnight? It was one of the last ones with David Tennant as the Doctor. EDIT: Of course I would get ninja'd because I took too long to write a response. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 My word there's a lot of Team America: World Police going on here; and no, that is not me ragging on all Americans. Firstly, may I say this: 600 filthy Word Bearers dead? I don't give a hoot who did the killing, that's still pretty god damn brilliant. That being said, I was almost as happy when the goody two shoes Ultramarines got their backsides handed to them in Know No Fear. I'm also pretty excited to find out what happened to Oll Persson (think that's right) but I'd like to find out for myself so could any spoilers be treated as such please and not blatantly written in-thread. Thanks. I hope to purchase the book this week so I'll add more to the thread once I've read it, assuming the thread isn't shut down in the meantime...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 My word there's a lot of Team America: World Police going on here; and no, that is not me ragging on all Americans. Firstly, may I say this: 600 filthy Word Bearers dead? I don't give a hoot who did the killing, that's still pretty god damn brilliant. That being said, I was almost as happy when the goody two shoes Ultramarines got their backsides handed to them in Know No Fear. I'm also pretty excited to find out what happened to Oll Persson (think that's right) but I'd like to find out for myself so could any spoilers be treated as such please and not blatantly written in-thread. Thanks. I hope to purchase the book this week so I'll add more to the thread once I've read it, assuming the thread isn't shut down in the meantime...... nothing happened to him. At the end of KNF he and his merry little band ran. They're still running. It was just interesting in terms of nuggets thrown at us, but that's it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 My word there's a lot of Team America: World Police going on here; and no, that is not me ragging on all Americans. Firstly, may I say this: 600 filthy Word Bearers dead? I don't give a hoot who did the killing, that's still pretty god damn brilliant. That being said, I was almost as happy when the goody two shoes Ultramarines got their backsides handed to them in Know No Fear. I'm also pretty excited to find out what happened to Oll Persson (think that's right) but I'd like to find out for myself so could any spoilers be treated as such please and not blatantly written in-thread. Thanks. I hope to purchase the book this week so I'll add more to the thread once I've read it, assuming the thread isn't shut down in the meantime...... nothing happened to him. At the end of KNF he and his merry little band ran. They're still running. It was just interesting in terms of nuggets thrown at us, but that's it. Fair enough. Even just the expansion on what he's up to now will be enough. I liked him in Know No Fear, bit of an enigma but he captured my attention. I seriously hope his story arc continues rather than his being a throw away character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Well, I ahven't read his short story but since Dan Abnett wrote both KNF and the Oll Persson stories, I have a feeling that he might be "watching over" him the same way A D-B is "watching over" Cyrene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3361579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Having gotten a chance to check out the story, I'm not sure I see what the big deal was. Outgunned Word Bearers get ambushed, momentarily retreat, but then get flattened by orbital strikes. I have a few technical nitpicks with that story, but the 600-0 number is not one of them. They never even had a chance to inflict any casualties. They didn't run at the Ultramarines, they ran away from them. Then got kablooeyed. It isn't like there was much conventional fighting. Just a lot of nuking the site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3369190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Having gotten a chance to check out the story, I'm not sure I see what the big deal was. Outgunned Word Bearers get ambushed, momentarily retreat, but then get flattened by orbital strikes. I have a few technical nitpicks with that story, but the 600-0 number is not one of them. They never even had a chance to inflict any casualties. They didn't run at the Ultramarines, they ran away from them. Then got kablooeyed. It isn't like there was much conventional fighting. Just a lot of nuking the site from orbit, because it's the only way to be sure. This. I cant for the life of me see what so wrong with a good ambush going that well. UM fanboy as I am, the story is pretty clear in describing how those particular Word Bearers were not a combat effective force by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, as Lorgar says in Betrayer, all the bearers of the word at Calth were the .... not so cool group. Dont worry about them being culled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3369226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabadin Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Something I found interesting, So if I'm interpreting the short story Athame right, the dagger that Oll currently has was used in an attempt to off the Big E in the middle ages, and now is looking to end up playing a key roles in his defeat of Horus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274624-mark-of-calth-some-comments-and-thoughts/page/4/#findComment-3369247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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