Dark Angels: May the Apothecary choose additional options?

[Skylifter]

Howdy,

 

I recently bought the new DA codex (german version, btw). The entry for command squads seemed to suggest to me that I could equip a veteran with a weapon from the list and then upgrade him to apothecary. As this upgrade only replaces his bolt pistol, I could exchange his chainsword for something else. 

 

Now I'm not so sure. Can I? Because if I can, I can run a squad with 5 plasma guns, one of them being on the apothecary himself...

[Lysere]

While I do not own codex dark angels so I can't pick apart the wording, if upgrading a model to be a character the ork FAQ says shows that such a change should be done first. While this does not mean the same thing for DA since it's a different FAQ in general upgrading a model to a character changes their wargear allowance. For example the C:SM command squad can't get 5 plasma guns in their command squad.

 

Again I don't have the codex so I can't look at exactly how it's worded but I'd say no unless your opponent is cool with it or someone can back it truly with RAW rather than the circular debates that tend to show up.

[Saiisil]

Granted I am using the US version of the codex so positioning of the options might be different but if you are basing this idea off of where the items are positioned, the character upgrades are placed before most upgrades (all upgrades except the Standards). However in older codices  that do not have them ordered that way you never had a rule to take the upgrades in subsequent order, yet when it came to the upgrades the character upgrades changed the options available to the model if the upgrades called for a model type.

 

This can honestly be argued either way though but think of it this way, the weapon upgrades are calling for model type veteran, when a veteran is upgraded to an apothecary or a company champion for that matter they are no longer model type veteran, they become model type apothecary or company champion so even if in your buying of upgrades you paid for the weapon first, the model no longer qualifies for the weapon.

[Dam13n]

This has been discussed before, although more often relating to the deathwing command squad (apothecary with CML).

 

The argument comes down to an "order of operations" issue.

 

In other words, which happens first, the apothecary upgrade or the weapon upgrade.

 

The moment the veteran is upgraded to a apothecary, he is technically not a veteran (different unit name) so cannot take other options available to veterans.

 

Now you are trying to get around this by saying you are buying the weapon first then upgrading him to an apothecary.  Some people will be fine with this, as GW hasn't yet ruled one way or the other which order of operations is correct.

 

However, if your opponent looks at your list and sees an apothecary with a plasma gun, then looks at the codex he/she may say that "an apothecary isn't a veteran, so can't take that upgrade." and they'd be correct.  You'd then have to explain how you went about taking the weapon first then the apothecary upgrade and any model selection that requires that sort of explaination implies bending of the rules.

 

The other thing that goes against it is the written order of the upgrades - the apothecary upgrade is earlier in the list of upgrades than the weapons.  Therefore applied literally - the apothecary upgrade is taken before any weapon upgrades so precludes that model from taking them.

 

The simple answer is that GW need to rule on the order in which upgrades are taken i.e. model upgrade - swap weapon - additional weapon - wargear.  Until they do, you are probably better off sitting on the side of caution and not taking options which could be declared illegal.  A reasonable solution would be to magnetise the shoulder/wrist so you can swap the weapons depending on the in-house ruling where you are playing.

[Skylifter]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. 

 

I hadn't considered that there was actually an order in which you took these. Making it so that upgrades that change the model type have to go first would make a lot of sense and if this were made a general rule, things would probably be easier to get right. I'll stick with no gun on the guy with the bandages then. 

[MadDoc]

If you're making a model an Apothecary then that model is going to be listed as an Apothecary on your finalised army list. Now if somebody else were to come along and look at that finalised list and see the Apothecary has somehow taken options he isn't allowed to take (i.e. options which are not specifically permited as options for an Apothecary (which in C: DA is none)) then they'd be right in saying that it wasn't a legal list.

 

Order of operations doesn't really come into it, if the end result is going to produce illegal/questionable combinations then you shouldn't be doing it. To my mind its better to be safe, than to risk being labelled a cheat (even an unintentional one).

 

YMMV.

[puffin]

While it has no official bearing on previous codexes you probably want to take a look at the wording in the new Tau codex.  There they make their intent very clear by explicitly stating what can and can't receive which upgrades.  Applying the same intent to the Dark Angels codex tells us that apothecaries can't take upgrades (but of course intent != rules and the rules for C:DA are still open to argument).

[Squirrelloid]

So, this came up briefly with teh BA Codex and the Sanguinary Novitiate, where its pretty clear the novitiate is not a veteran, because he is never a veteran.  (Not an upgrade option, but an automatic squad perk.  The squad comes with 4 veterans and a sanguinary novitiate).

 

If however, you are *upgrading* a veteran to an apothecary, that sort of implies he is, in fact, still a veteran.  If you are *replacing* a veteran with the apothecary, then he is not a veteran.  I don't have the DA dex to look, but language matters.

[DarkGuard]

The language is "upgraded", but it's the same issue as the C:SM Company Champion. The main argument against is that he has a different profile to a Veteran, and only Veterans can take upgrades. While there is the "order of operations" argument, the safest thing to do is go by the assumption that the Apothecary (and Company Champion) are different to Veterans and therefore cannot take additional equipment.