Building Competitive/Semi-Competitive Lists at 1,000 Points?

[Guest TheoryCraft]

Good evening everyone,

 

First time poster here.  As a quick frame of reference, I've played 40k on and off for the past 15 years or so.  I would not call myself elite or, conversely, a complete noob; I don't do min-max lists but I have been successful, winning several local gaming store tournaments.

 

Anyways, I am having the worst time trying to build a competitive or even semi-competitive Dark Angels list at the 1,000 pt. level.  Maybe I just have a warped sense of points values in light of the fact that I am a 15 year IG player, but I cannot for the life of me fit everything in that I want to a low point level Dangel list. 

 

Here is what I see as major problems for Dangels at lower point levels:

1.  Little/less mobility in comparison to most armies.  (Problematic for scoring, especially with janky Troops choices!)

2.  Low model count.

3.  Expensive models with mandatory frill add-ons that jack up the price of models unnecessarily (I'm looking at you, Hit and Run and teleport homers!).

 

I anticipate at least a few responses saying something to the effect of, "well not everyone can fit everything into 1,000 points!"  Again, maybe I'm just biased primarily being an IG player, but it feels so much worse for Dangels than other armies.  Three of the major archetypes of Dangels (Ravenwing, Deathwing, Triplewing) are either not competitive (Deathwing, for the most part) or just too expensive at 1,000 points (Azrael costs nearly a quarter of your army for a single buffing HQ... sad day).  I've heard Ravenwing has mixed results, doing very well in some match-ups and horribly in others.  Another major archetype I've heard about is/was the PFG list with Land Raiders - again, sadly, that list is too expensive for 1,000 points, and that doesn't even include the fact that the PFG was nerfed.

 

In consideration of the old adage "follow your meta," here is the closest list to consistent success that I have had at 1,000 points:

Librarian w/ PFG

8x Devastators w/ 3x ML's (1x flakk), 1x LC

5x Command Squad w/ Dakka banner

10x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun

10x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun

Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Whirlwind

 

The list seems a bit strange ("WW's suck!"), but hear me out.  The dakka banner squad with 2x Tactical Squads gives an insane fire base.  No one will want to come within 24" of your army when you have dozens and dozens of bolter shots holding down your objective.  The Libby with the PFG attaches to the Dev squad and gives rerolls with Divination.  Additionally, the Libby babysits the Razorbacks with his PFG.  The Command Squad actually hides in one of the Razorbacks to start the game so they don't get shot off the board, losing your banner.  The Whirlwind is there because I had 65 leftover points and I figure it might be halfway decent to knock out/pin those pesky Havoc/Long Fang squads (and for a measly 65 points, it does a damn nice job of that).

 

From what I've read, Greenwing is probably the closest to running a "competitive" list at lower points levels.  I am curious though, what kinds of lists do YOU think are successful at smaller point games?

 

[IndigoJack]

Here is what I see as major problems for Dangels at lower point levels:

1.  Little/less mobility in comparison to most armies.  (Problematic for scoring, especially with janky Troops choices!)

 

With the exception of jump pack equipped BAs, DA are as mobile as any other power armored army. They're equally as survivable too (except BAs with sanguinary priests) so I don't see how we have any harder time scoring than they do unless you mean with DW or RW as troops.

 

2.  Low model count.

 

Again, this only really applies to DW and RW. Model count is one of the trade-offs when getting increased durability and mobility in return.

 

3.  Expensive models with mandatory frill add-ons that jack up the price of models unnecessarily (I'm looking at you, Hit and Run and teleport homers!).

 

RW bikes have come down a lot with this codex, to the point where they are equivalently priced to C:SM and have H&R and homers. But I do agree with this, there are certain units that have gone up in points because they've been bloated by special rules.

 

 

In consideration of the old adage "follow your meta," here is the closest list to consistent success that I have had at 1,000 points:

Librarian w/ PFG

8x Devastators w/ 3x ML's (1x flakk), 1x LC

5x Command Squad w/ Dakka banner

10x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun

10x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun

Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Whirlwind

 

The list seems a bit strange ("WW's suck!"), but hear me out.  The dakka banner squad with 2x Tactical Squads gives an insane fire base.  No one will want to come within 24" of your army when you have dozens and dozens of bolter shots holding down your objective.  The Libby with the PFG attaches to the Dev squad and gives rerolls with Divination.  Additionally, the Libby babysits the Razorbacks with his PFG.  The Command Squad actually hides in one of the Razorbacks to start the game so they don't get shot off the board, losing your banner.  The Whirlwind is there because I had 65 leftover points and I figure it might be halfway decent to knock out/pin those pesky Havoc/Long Fang squads (and for a measly 65 points, it does a damn nice job of that).

 

From what I've read, Greenwing is probably the closest to running a "competitive" list at lower points levels.  I am curious though, what kinds of lists do YOU think are successful at smaller point games?

 

I like your list. My only suggestion would be to drop some marines off the devs to give the libby terminator armor. This allows him to tank some wounds before he has to LOS! them and make the rest of the squad take the 4++. Not sure which really works out better though.

 

I actually haven't run my DA at 1000pts yet, but if I was going to (especially competitively), I'd run some kind of meta-smasher, especially at 1000pts where a balanced list is impossible.

 

Something like this:

 

Libby

Command Squad w/ SoD

x2 Tactical squads w/ meltagun, missile launcher, rhino

rifledread

LRC

 

This list abuses the fact that most 1000pt armies aren't equipped to handle AV14 and annihilates opponents with buckets of bullets.

[AngelVeto]

I actually use the SoD with ravenwing in my lgs. Sure you've only got six models in a squad instead of ten, but you can double your special weapons without losing bolters, and they are twin linked. Add to that your ability to move 12" every turn and still fire 24 twin linked bolter shots per squad and I think it's well worth losing those 2-4 extra bolters.

 

For a 1k list allowing special characters and forgeworld (my LGS) I'd take

 

Sammy on speeder

3 man command squad with SoD

2-3 full RAS with two meltas and MMAB

Contepmtor Morris with kheres and cyclone

Typhoons to fill the list.

 

Not looking at point values I think that's the one I've used. Would have to check later

[AngelVeto]

Seems I'm a terrible liar and that list was a 1500 haha. 2 RAS and typhoons, drop the contemptor and third RAS should make it a fun 1k list IMO

[Guest TheoryCraft]

@IndigoJack:  Your proposed list looks good, except that as a matter of personal preference I would take the Dev squad over the Rifledread :P  Granted, Devs are usually the first thing shot off the board... but the Libby re-rolls to hit are huge, huge, huge for that squad.  The Lascannon with the sergeant signum suddenly becomes a 2+ re-rollable to hit against heavy armor.  If there's air, the flakk ML is a 2+ re-rollable anti-air.  The reason I put the ablative wounds on the Dev squad is because when I did a recent tournament, the Dev squad - of which I ran a single x5 squad - got wiped out every game, lol.

 

@AngelVeto:  I've heard pretty good things about Ravenwing, which now seems even better now that the SoD can be hidden in a bigger squad thanks to the recent FAQ buff.  However, I still do have concerns running Ravenwing in 1,000 points having not playtested it yet.  If you - or anyone else - has played Ravenwing in 1,000 point games and can report on its efficacy, please let me know :)

[captain sox]

I go against the grain and try to run smaller Tac squads. Why? I just found dividing a 10 man sqaud into 2, giving half a transport, is really kinda pointless (remember, this is my point of view only). If your're going to divide your squad up and upgrade to a special weapon, why not just buy a smaller squads with long range heavy weapons? It comes out cheaper than a 10 Man Squad with a transport. I also think there's too much hype in the Standard of Devastation: basically adding a unit at the minimum of 165pts just to buff bolters is odd (again to me)... but I will admit it's a cool gimmick for now. Anyway, here's my list:

 

DA – 1000 Pts

 

HQ: 95

Libby in TDA

 

Elite: 260

Deathwing Terminator Squad: 2TH/SS, Cyclone Launcher, Chain Fist

 

Troops: 355

Tactical I: 5Man with Plasma Cannon

Tactical II: 5 Man with Plasma Cannon

Tactical III: 5 Man with Lascannon

Tactical IV: 5 Man with ML/Flakk

 

Fast Attack: 160

2x Land Speeder Typhoons, 1 with Multi Melta

 

Heavy: 130

Dev Squad: 5 Man, 3 x Lascannon

 

31 bodies... not too bad for 1000 pts. While not perfect, it could be fun. If you don't want to run Termies, you could buy another Tac and Dev squad, maybe bump up the Dev's to 6 men each. Just my thoughts....

[Guest TheoryCraft]

@captain sox:  I've been strongly considering running 5 mans to min-max Heavy Weapons over 10 mans.  However, the problem arises in Kill Point-related missions.  I know that KP's are just one of many mission types, but you're basically auto-conceding that match-up by giving away that many KP's...

 

I personally find the SoD to be a very effective tool, but then again maybe that's only the case in smaller games (i.e., the type I play).  A single 10 man Tactical squad under this list puts out a Plasma Cannon shot, 1-2 Plasma Gun shots, and 32(!) bolter shots.  That is easily enough to evaporate a small to medium-sized MEq squad with an average round of shooting (figure 1-2 MEq dead from PC, maybe 1 from PG, and on average 3.55 MEq dead per 32 bolter shots).  Additionally, with that many shots, your damage threshold is through the roof.  I can envision killing 10+ MEq's with good rolls/bad armor saves in a single round of shooting with just a 10 man Tactical Squad.

[Brother Immolator]

I wouldnt call hit and run useless. Bikes are not a melee oriented choice, but given the fact that they are relentless with hit and run they are fully capable of rapid firing, hammer of wrath, throw their own attacks and if the need arises dissengage and repeat. That gives them a very good weapon against semidedicated CC squads. For the non dedicated its simply deadly.

 

I find it surprising that it is looked upon as a useless rule, especially when the marine codex, must pay an HQ slot and a ton of points for it.

 

Just MHO really :D

[Guest TheoryCraft]

How does something like this Ravenwing list work at 1,000 points?:

 

Sammael (200)

5x Ravenwing Command Squad w/ Dakka Banner (265)

6x Bikes w/ 2x melta gun; 1x Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta (236)

6x Bikes w/ 2x melta gun; 1x Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta (236)

5x Scouts (60)

 

997 points for 25 models, of which 20 are bikes and 5 are muhreenz with 4+ save.

 

Sammael goes with Command Squad for numbers and CC punch.  Bike squads combat squad as needed.  The 5x Scout squad is pretty derpish, but I figure they can come on as reserves to capture/hold down a late turn "home base" objective.  Thoughts?

[captain sox]

The kill point games is something I never really considered.... our group rarely plays them. Can I ask what points your Command Squad comes in at? I may try adding it to my list. But I'll still only run my groups in 5's!  Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Razorbacks are 150pts... almost the same as the 2 Speeders, who, in my opinion, can put out more firepower.

 

I'm really interested in this thread, would like to see what others think too

[IndigoJack]

I wouldn't worry about kill point missions. I run high kill point armies normally and win those fairly frequently. Use reserves and LoS blocking to your advantage.

 

The advantage of the dakka banner is that it quadruples the firepower of a stationary unit at 24" for little over the price of a tac squad. Obviously the rate of return goes up the more tac squads you have but I think you can still get quite a bit out of it @ 1000 pts

[Interrogator Stobz]

How does something like this Ravenwing list work at 1,000 points?:

 

Sammael (200)

5x Ravenwing Command Squad w/ Dakka Banner (265)

6x Bikes w/ 2x melta gun; 1x Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta (236)

6x Bikes w/ 2x melta gun; 1x Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta (236)

5x Scouts (60)

 

997 points for 25 models, of which 20 are bikes and 5 are muhreenz with 4+ save.

 

Sammael goes with Command Squad for numbers and CC punch.  Bike squads combat squad as needed.  The 5x Scout squad is pretty derpish, but I figure they can come on as reserves to capture/hold down a late turn "home base" objective.  Thoughts?

I'd drop the scouts and trade the ABs in for a pair of MM Typhoons, otherwise pretty cool

[Guest TheoryCraft]

One of the mainstays for my Dark Angels list has been the SoD gunline.  For 505 points you get 2x10 Tacticals w/ Plasma Gun + Plasma Cannon, and a 5x Command Squad.  I know some people are not high on a shooty gunline that has to remain stationary, but like anything else in your list, it has a specific strategy (i.e., holding down your home objective).  When I played in a doubles tournament a few weeks ago, the SoD gunline was by far the MVP for me and my partner.  My opponents were (rightfully) scared of the incredible amount of shots that the gunline could put out such that they had to creep more than 24" away most turns.  Whenever something came within 24" it faced 2 Plasma Blasts, 2 Plasma Guns, and 84 bolter shots and typically was annihilated in short order.

 

Another strategy that I would like to discuss at the 1,000 point level is pure Deathwing or part-Deathwing.  I have always had a soft spot for Deathwing, but unfortunately from what I've read and seen in battle reports and tournaments, it typically is not successful in low points games.  My guess is lack of bodies and mobility.  If my numbers are correct, running a pure Deathwing list at 1,000 points will field you somewhere between 15-20 models (Belial + 3x5 Terminators w/ Heavy Weapon, approximately).  Has anyone found success running a half-Deathwing list of, say, the following:

 

Belial w/ 10x Terminator squad & either Heavy Flamer/AC/CML (~630)

MSU 5x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon (85)

MSU 5x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon (85)

MSU 5x Tactical w/ Plasma Cannon (85)

5x Devastator Squad w/ multiple heavy weapons (~130)

 

4 scoring units, 3 of which sit at home.  The Devastators give long range AT punch.  Belial and the Terminators accurately DWA and destroy something pretty easily I would imagine.  The big weakness I see is lack of anti-infantry shooting, which is why I was thinking the giant squad with Belial could have Heavy Flamers.  Imagine deep striking 1" away from an infantry squad and hitting it with 2x twin-linked Heavy Flamers and 18 twin-linked storm bolter shots.  Assuming you conservatively hit 5 Meq's with each heavy flamer shot, that averages approximately 5.63 dead Meq's from the first turn of shooting.  Thoughts?

 

EDIT/ADDITION:  If someone could discuss the actual in-game efficacy of 5 man MSU Tactical Squads w/ Plasma Cannons it'd be greatly appreciated :)  They seem intriguing on paper for Tactical uses that don't involve the dakka banner...