So, Eldar...

[Koremu]

So the new Eldar Codex has hit and I imagine this weekend will feature most peoples first chances to play against it.

 

What stands out from the Codex for you? What units have been nasty on the tabletop? What Space Marine units fare well (or badly) against Eldar?

 

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, synergistic effects are key to Eldar play in this Codex more than recent ones. I think part of the skill of beating Eldar is to identify the lynchpin of that Synergy and eliminate it.

 

From a sight of the Codex, it looks like Warp Spider Aspect Warriors are a clear winner in this edition. They have a STR6 weapon (which rises to STR7 if the target is a vehicle or has low Initiative) and 2 Shots, while being Jetpackers and able to run and fire. They can also Deep Strike. This puts them into being very easy to hit-and-fade with successfully, and even a small unit is almost guaranteed to get enough glances to cripple any Space Marine Rhino-Variant vehicle.

 

Howling Banshees have clearly been badly done by (again). The changes to Assault rules in 6th did them no favours, but they are now without Grenades. Stay in Cover, and you strike simultaneously with them.

 

Their Air unit is an AV10 Glass Cannon

 

 

I don't know what to make of the big thing.

 

[carnosaur93]

you should be able to kill the wraithknight with scouts from what i can see, poison+rending means that they are basicly build for stuff like that... also powerfists/hammers should do the trick, wounding on 4+ and ignoring armor

 

for spiders it seems long-range in general should suffice... they shouldn't really be that tough (T3 W1 SV3+ if memory serves right), so long range would pretty much render their hit/run shenanigans useless as all that jumping would happen within your zone of shootyness (spiders being sorta shortranged themselves, atleast last edition).

alternatively, use a drop pod (for once not in the first turn :P) to slam down next to them and bolter/fry/whatever their spidery faces off, once again rendering their mobility useless

[Hellios]

you should be able to kill the wraithknight with scouts from what i can see, poison+rending means that they are basicly build for stuff like that... also powerfists/hammers should do the trick, wounding on 4+ and ignoring armor

for spiders it seems long-range in general should suffice... they shouldn't really be that tough (T3 W1 SV3+ if memory serves right), so long range would pretty much render their hit/run shenanigans useless as all that jumping would happen within your zone of shootyness (spiders being sorta shortranged themselves, atleast last edition).

alternatively, use a drop pod (for once not in the first turn ) to slam down next to them and bolter/fry/whatever their spidery faces off, once again rendering their mobility useless

I'm not saying that can't work, but I'm not sure if that would be throwing too much just to kill warp spiders.

Anyway it goes something like this... Warp Spiders deepstrike in, run into position, blap you, hide behind a wall... So you don't get to do anything first. Also I'll assume all comers lists here. Most people are probably not going to equip a deep striking unit to take out warp spiders specifically. Although AP3 sternguard should do it, and they are a fairly common drop pod unit (who might find anti-tank melta less effective against the Eldar).

Warp Spiders can run as well, but I with their mobility they are more reliable than most deep striking units.

Warp Spiders look golden, but I don't think they are such a threat you need to have a specific counter. Just use whatever you happen to have free. As it has always been with Eldar (and most armies I guess :P), target priority is key. What is the weakness in your army? How will the Eldar exploit that? Kill the unit they are going to use.

As an Eldar player I think that the codex is workable, it has addressed some problems (Like things being too cheap or too expensive) and it hasn't made a huge number of changes. I'm mainly concerned about are psychic defense being weakened, and our psychic buffing becoming less reliable. Wraith armies could be interesting but also very fragile if people have the right weapons. Suffering from what all armies with low model counts suffer from... The lack of a reliable 2+ save and a ++ save on many of the Wraith units also makes them vulnerable.

So until we see what all the sneaky Eldar plays start to settle on... I think it will be business as usual for a while.

[Grey Mage]

Theres no reason that Spiders would stay within LOS, as they ignore terrain- and 2d6+6" is a pretty good distance Id say.

 

Also, the crimson hunter isnt a bad unit. Sure, its AV 10- but with 4 S8 AP2 shots its a threat to anything on the board, and with vector dancer catching its going to be a :cuss off a time.

 

I think youre going to find eldar players doing one of four things:

Shurican toting fists in waveserpents. Guardian or Avenger variety. Backed up by HS grav tanks and vypers. A whole different kind of flying circus with jetbikes for the late turn objective grab.

 

Alpha Strike Nutjobs- lots of deepstriking, outflanking goodness. Using an autarch to get everything onto the board turn 2, with a couple of waveserpent and vyper types hiding in cover turn 1 to balance it out. Everything hits a flank hard turn 2, and evens the numbers out. Then they try to munch you with superior equipment.

 

Long Range low ap dakka dakka dakka. Waveserpent artillery pieces, warwalkers and dark reapers and vypers to just put out massive amounts of heavy weapons fire every turn- like long fang spam, but army wide. Small scoring avenger units embark on the serpents late game, shoot forward once its safe to grab victory.

 

Wraiths. Lots and lots of T6, with spiritseers to keep them as safe as possible, backed by Wraithlords and a couple fighters for AA/LR antitank support.
 

 

 

But thats just my opinion.

[Scarrie]

Hey,

 

Just joined the forum so greetings!

 

I had a game against the new Eldar last night. So initial thoughts:

 

The new psuedo-rending for Shuriken weapons is a little frustrating, I guess even power armour will have to hug the cover!

 

Wave Serpents are still very hard to take down. With the vast majority of penetrating hits going to glances it seems weight of fire is probably the most reliable way taking them out a range.

On a general note, I'm finding assautling vehicles one of the most efficient ways of taking them out this edition so far.

 

Psychic powers didn't feature all that much so can't really comment on their performance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jiron]

I must say I like the Codex and it seems pretty balanced. Noone mentioned the Swooping Hawks which don't scatter. As my brother likes Eldrad I have taken a look at him and he seems like a beast (I mean Eldrad, not my brother). With some lucky rolls, he can do his magicks pretty long time and make some critical damage... Maybe a reason for my Khârn to be put back on.

 

Warlocks are pretty cheap psykers that could hurt.

 

Personally, I see that the guardians are major improvement while able to move, run, shoot and charge with pseudo-rending weaponry.

Looking Forward for the first match.

[Montuhotep]

I have it on good authority that the Dire Avenger's Pheonix Lord is a nasty little beastie for challenges and the like....

[Koremu]

The Warlock Power that puts -1 on your Armour Save is no fun at all. I did not like the experience of Terminators suddenly turning out to be susceptible to Init 5 AP3 Power Swords, or Tactical Marines becoming Save 4+ and then having AP4 bird poop bombs that ignore cover dropped on their heads.

[Ishagu]

Ugh that sounds horrible...

[DWK]

assault vehicles aye? For space marines that would only mean land raider variants, which are particularly susceptible to many eldar weaponry such as lance weapons, fire dragons, fire prisms and wraith lords/knights/warwalkers.  With the BS upgrade across the board these will be hitting a lot.

 

So either we take 2 land raiders for target saturation or none at all.  

 

Scarrie,

 

In your games vs. eldar, how did your assault vehicles manage to survive the various eldar anti-vehicle weaponry?  These are tips which we can probably use when facing similar eldar lists.

[Hellios]

assault vehicles aye? For space marines that would only mean land raider variants, which are particularly susceptible to many eldar weaponry such as lance weapons, fire dragons, fire prisms and wraith lords/knights/warwalkers.  With the BS upgrade across the board these will be hitting a lot.

 

So either we take 2 land raiders for target saturation or none at all.  

 

Scarrie,

 

In your games vs. eldar, how did your assault vehicles manage to survive the various eldar anti-vehicle weaponry?  These are tips which we can probably use when facing similar eldar lists.

 

I don't know... As an Eldar player I prefer to play against small elite units/armies... 2 Land Raiders is easier than 1.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The problem that we, as the opposition, will have against wraith armies in particular is that every gun they carry is AP2. Forget reliance on the armor save altering power, since its a random chart; they can't bank on getting it, so we don't have to worry about always facing it. What we need to be concerning ourselves with is the proper means of combating each unit type in the codex. For example, wraithguard have powerful but short ranged guns and lack both Fleet and Battle Focus, so we need to play a distance game as much as possible and whittle them down with concentrated plasma.

 

Honestly we should look into starting (or converting this one) a New thread on anti-Eldar tactics.

[Koremu]

Use this thread as a resource to gather peoples experiences on their battles first, then write up articles on the different units afterwards.

 

The battle I fought, the Eldar had 5 psykers, but no Wraith units - it was all shurikens and jump units.

 

I think "Wraith" armies will be quite a distinct challenge on the battlefield.

[totallynotchaos]

What is the new psuedo-rending on shuriken weapons people keep talking about? I haven't gotten a game in with them yet, and I most probably wont until friday.

[Hellios]

What is the new psuedo-rending on shuriken weapons people keep talking about? I haven't gotten a game in with them yet, and I most probably wont until friday.

 

They basically have rending against models with a T value. They can't rend against vehicles.

[Grey Mage]

Any to wound roll of a six, with shurican weapon only, is AP 2 and autowounds.

 

Catapults and pistols are range 12 bolter profiles, Dire Avengers are 18", and Cannons are S6 and 24".

[Koremu]

The Shuriken rules are actually horrible against High-T units when combined with Doom. Only Wound on a 6 with re-roll failed to-wound is about 30% chance to wound (at AP2!) per shot. It does not take many Shuriken to take down some impressive beasts.

[Grey Mage]

Yup, and half the wounds vs bikes will ignore armor too....

 

Still, marines will often outrange eldar. Whirlwinds, plasmacannons, special ammunition, plasmacannons, plasmaguns, and plasmacannons are all great choices vs any eldar force.

[d@n]

the wraithknight is nasty. s10 t8 6w  with a 3+ armour save 4++ inv save and its a jump unit . if it uses its inv save you have to take a blind test in close combat! scouts want be killing it as on average your going to need to roll 36 wounds to get the 6. 6's you will need and that's if it fails all its inv saves.

I think turn 1 or 2 its going to be in combat. it can reliably knock of 2-3 wounds of just about anything a turn. maybe thunder hammer terminators will kill it but there going to be tied up all game doing it and I don't think any elder player will let them get close to it.

[minigun762]

It's only helpful for traitor marines but taking some dirge casters on rhinos might help you deny the wicked D-Scythe overwatch shots.

Beyond that, I think the trick will be to try charging those units with a sacrificial unit first and then your main squad.

That or use walkers, I haven't heard that they have any impact on armor.

[Stickeh]

the wraithknight is nasty. s10 t8 6w with a 3+ armour save 4++ inv save and its a jump unit . if it uses its inv save you have to take a blind test in close combat! scouts want be killing it as on average your going to need to roll 36 wounds to get the 6. 6's you will need and that's if it fails all its inv saves.

I think turn 1 or 2 its going to be in combat. it can reliably knock of 2-3 wounds of just about anything a turn. maybe thunder hammer terminators will kill it but there going to be tied up all game doing it and I don't think any elder player will let them get close to it.

The shield and sword load out for the dreadknight is pretty terrible for the points though, and the blind within 6" applies to friendly units as well, which could work to our advantage. Really for its points it's not very killy, the better load out looks like scatter laser + suncannon, which could be a real problem for us, or the double heavy wraith cannons popping land raiders (not very popular anyway).

[Grey Mage]

 

the wraithknight is nasty. s10 t8 6w with a 3+ armour save 4++ inv save and its a jump unit . if it uses its inv save you have to take a blind test in close combat! scouts want be killing it as on average your going to need to roll 36 wounds to get the 6. 6's you will need and that's if it fails all its inv saves.

I think turn 1 or 2 its going to be in combat. it can reliably knock of 2-3 wounds of just about anything a turn. maybe thunder hammer terminators will kill it but there going to be tied up all game doing it and I don't think any elder player will let them get close to it.

The shield and sword load out for the dreadknight is pretty terrible for the points though, and the blind within 6" applies to friendly units as well, which could work to our advantage. Really for its points it's not very killy, the better load out looks like scatter laser + suncannon, which could be a real problem for us, or the double heavy wraith cannons popping land raiders (not very popular anyway).

The invulnerable save is only a 5++ for starters....

 

And yeah, at 300pts alot of people are considering the suncannon, though at that point I have to wonder why they arent just taking two fire prisms.... Still, its a workable option.

 

The Double Wraithcannons is an apocalypse specialty I think. Theres not alot of call for S10 out there that cant be handled better, again, by the fire prisms- and 2 will get you two different targets, as one wraithknight will not. Against superheavies its great, against lesser targets its most likely a confirmed kill, but perhaps expensive for what it does.

 

Deepstriking with a sword, double heavy weapons of your choice, and ripping things apart in CC- other monstrous creatures, tanks, etc seems to be where itll make back its points the best. Sure, the blind affects friendlies- but with average initiative of five they wont be failing it often.... and if its in your armies face its likely to get two, even three units at a time when it goes off.

[bystrom]

It's only helpful for traitor marines but taking some dirge casters on rhinos might help you deny the wicked D-Scythe overwatch shots.

Beyond that, I think the trick will be to try charging those units with a sacrificial unit first and then your main squad.

That or use walkers, I haven't heard that they have any impact on armor.

 

They do seem to be distort weapons though, so should always be able to pen vehicles.

[d@n]

 

 

the wraithknight is nasty. s10 t8 6w with a 3+ armour save 4++ inv save and its a jump unit . if it uses its inv save you have to take a blind test in close combat! scouts want be killing it as on average your going to need to roll 36 wounds to get the 6. 6's you will need and that's if it fails all its inv saves.

I think turn 1 or 2 its going to be in combat. it can reliably knock of 2-3 wounds of just about anything a turn. maybe thunder hammer terminators will kill it but there going to be tied up all game doing it and I don't think any elder player will let them get close to it.

The shield and sword load out for the dreadknight is pretty terrible for the points though, and the blind within 6" applies to friendly units as well, which could work to our advantage. Really for its points it's not very killy, the better load out looks like scatter laser + suncannon, which could be a real problem for us, or the double heavy wraith cannons popping land raiders (not very popular anyway).

The invulnerable save is only a 5++ for starters....

 

And yeah, at 300pts alot of people are considering the suncannon, though at that point I have to wonder why they arent just taking two fire prisms.... Still, its a workable option.

 

The Double Wraithcannons is an apocalypse specialty I think. Theres not alot of call for S10 out there that cant be handled better, again, by the fire prisms- and 2 will get you two different targets, as one wraithknight will not. Against superheavies its great, against lesser targets its most likely a confirmed kill, but perhaps expensive for what it does.

 

Deepstriking with a sword, double heavy weapons of your choice, and ripping things apart in CC- other monstrous creatures, tanks, etc seems to be where itll make back its points the best. Sure, the blind affects friendlies- but with average initiative of five they wont be failing it often.... and if its in your armies face its likely to get two, even three units at a time when it goes off.

my mistake. the shimmershield  is 5+.

I see the wraithknights function as a bullet magnet. if it gives an  elder player a turn or 2, to get everything into position then its done its job.

wave serpents  are the real threat. the serpent shield can fire a  d6+1 strength 7 pinning and ignore cover weapon, and if they take tl scatter laser, it's twin linked, if they hit with the scatter laser, and lets face it there going too. that's on a transport that just about everything can take!  I see wave serpents killing devastator's and long fangs turn one and spending the rest of the came doing there thing with out much that can destroy them

[d@n]

 

the wraithknight is nasty. s10 t8 6w with a 3+ armour save 4++ inv save and its a jump unit . if it uses its inv save you have to take a blind test in close combat! scouts want be killing it as on average your going to need to roll 36 wounds to get the 6. 6's you will need and that's if it fails all its inv saves.

I think turn 1 or 2 its going to be in combat. it can reliably knock of 2-3 wounds of just about anything a turn. maybe thunder hammer terminators will kill it but there going to be tied up all game doing it and I don't think any elder player will let them get close to it.

The shield and sword load out for the dreadknight is pretty terrible for the points though, and the blind within 6" applies to friendly units as well, which could work to our advantage. Really for its points it's not very killy, the better load out looks like scatter laser + suncannon, which could be a real problem for us, or the double heavy wraith cannons popping land raiders (not very popular anyway).

I don't know what you mean. for 10 points you get an inv save blind and the ability to re-role 25% of your attacks. as for not being "killy" I know it only has 4 attacks but its strength 10!! ap2.

not a lot of volume, I agree but they are some of the  highest quality attacks in the game on top of being the toughest thing in the game it want kill  hordes but will kill just about everything else including thunder wolves, special characters nob bikers ect without breaking a sweat. its penetrating land raiders on a 4+ on 2 dice for gods sake