So, Eldar...

[Hellios]

I don't know what you mean. for 10 points you get an inv save blind and the ability to re-role 25% of your attacks. as for not being "killy" I know it only has 4 attacks but its strength 10!! ap2.

not a lot of volume, I agree but they are some of the  highest quality attacks in the game on top of being the toughest thing in the game it want kill  hordes but will kill just about everything else including thunder wolves, special characters nob bikers ect without breaking a sweat. its penetrating land raiders on a 4+ on 2 dice for gods sake

 

It's not that it isn't killy... and you say for only 10pts... but you lose a lot of dakka as well. For the upgrade to be effective it needs to get into combat (The shield helps), which it certainly can't count on doing.... Although 6 wounds will make it tough to deal with. It is a risk for the Eldar player... As a number of armies have units that will be threatening for a Wraithknight. It isn't bad, but I don't think it will be the be all and end all.

 

my mistake. the shimmershield  is 5+.

I see the wraithknights function as a bullet magnet. if it gives an  elder player a turn or 2, to get everything into position then its done its job.

wave serpents  are the real threat. the serpent shield can fire a  d6+1 strength 7 pinning and ignore cover weapon, and if they take tl scatter laser, it's twin linked, if they hit with the scatter laser, and lets face it there going too. that's on a transport that just about everything can take!  I see wave serpents killing devastator's and long fangs turn one and spending the rest of the came doing there thing with out much that can destroy them

 

Think about it. The Wave Serpent is the best transport in the game, it has problems for some units (it isn't an assault vehicle) and it in expensive. If you compare the level of fire power it has for its points. I think you will find it isn't that great. (It isn't bad) Now it could be a threat to your transports, but you can afford two for every wave serpent. They also leave themselves more vulnerable after doing this. So the Eldar player will have to choose, because in many cases he really will want the unit inside to get close to you! Fire Dragons will make a bigger mess of your transports. Although I will tell you that a DE player didn't find the serpent fields amusing.

 

I don't see them wiping out squads of marines. You are averaging on 8.5 shots a turn (assuming the hull weapon is out of range)... Let's call it 9. Those are TLed, meaning most will hit, Decent strength... So most will wound. 7 wounds isn't crazy. Power armor will save most of those. I'm just going to argue that this isn't the best use of a Wave Serpent. If they want a transport that will be its primary role, although I can see them trying to cripple enemy movements, especially if the enemy is relying on short ranged attacks. If I want to nuke marines... I can think of a better way to spend 125pts...

 

The big threat is the AP2 templates that disembark from the serpents... They will kill marines hiding in cover.

[Scarrie]

assault vehicles aye? For space marines that would only mean land raider variants, which are particularly susceptible to many eldar weaponry such as lance weapons, fire dragons, fire prisms and wraith lords/knights/warwalkers.  With the BS upgrade across the board these will be hitting a lot.

 

So either we take 2 land raiders for target saturation or none at all.  

 

Scarrie,

 

In your games vs. eldar, how did your assault vehicles manage to survive the various eldar anti-vehicle weaponry?  These are tips which we can probably use when facing similar eldar lists.

 

I had 2 Rhinos, a Razorback and two drop pods so there wasn't all that much in the way of heavy armour to shoot at.

That said a unit of Wraithguard made short work of my Dreadnought, a unit of those will take down a Land Raider in short order I reckon.

Brightlances on Wave Serpents are now a lot cheaper so expect to see more of those, thankfully it missed most of the time despite now being BS4.

The new Lance mode on the Fire Prism is going to annoying I suspect however it only fired in that mode once as it was too busy annihilating most of my Sternguard with the now AP3 large blast template! (It had annoyingly made it's holofield save against a combi-melta shot up the backside :( )

[minigun762]

So far my biggest worry is the Wave Serpents.

 

They're going to be loaded for bear and the flexibility of having the shield of a D6 worth of autocannon shots is pretty powerful.

[Grey Mage]

So far my biggest worry is the Wave Serpents.

 

They're going to be loaded for bear and the flexibility of having the shield of a D6 worth of autocannon shots is pretty powerful.

Yeah, but largely infantry armies arent going to care. The field is good vs orks- what isnt- and light vehicles. Vs marines that means that the transport thats the same price as our main battle tank is going to be as much of a threat vs rhino chassis. Against predators, vindicators, etc or squads of marines its not that impressive, though the pinning helps.

 

No... Fire Prisms having a S5 AP 3 large blast at 60" is going to be painful.

 

And for 210pts, 5 Wraithguard with AP2 flamers is going to be worse.

 

Id say if you dont get first turn vs a serpent- ie before it moves- then I wouldnt bother until you can get a juicy rear armor shot with massed guns. Since thats the access point, its likely to happen.

[Hellios]

Id say if you dont get first turn vs a serpent- ie before it moves- then I wouldnt bother until you can get a juicy rear armor shot with massed guns. Since thats the access point, its likely to happen.

 

Maybe... but run shoot should be helpful for some units, I guess it depends how close you are willing to get to the enemy, or if they are willing to give you cover saves they might just shoot through the tank... Which is what we used to do with Dire Avengers... Although we now have to think about how that will affect our bladestorm hits.

[d@n]

 

I don't know what you mean. for 10 points you get an inv save blind and the ability to re-role 25% of your attacks. as for not being "killy" I know it only has 4 attacks but its strength 10!! ap2.

not a lot of volume, I agree but they are some of the  highest quality attacks in the game on top of being the toughest thing in the game it want kill  hordes but will kill just about everything else including thunder wolves, special characters nob bikers ect without breaking a sweat. its penetrating land raiders on a 4+ on 2 dice for gods sake

 

It's not that it isn't killy... and you say for only 10pts... but you lose a lot of dakka as well. For the upgrade to be effective it needs to get into combat (The shield helps), which it certainly can't count on doing.... Although 6 wounds will make it tough to deal with. It is a risk for the Eldar player... As a number of armies have units that will be threatening for a Wraithknight. It isn't bad, but I don't think it will be the be all and end all.

 

>my mistake. the shimmershield  is 5+.

I see the wraithknights function as a bullet magnet. if it gives an  elder player a turn or 2, to get everything into position then its done its job.

wave serpents  are the real threat. the serpent shield can fire a  d6+1 strength 7 pinning and ignore cover weapon, and if they take tl scatter laser, it's twin linked, if they hit with the scatter laser, and lets face it there going too. that's on a transport that just about everything can take!  I see wave serpents killing devastator's and long fangs turn one and spending the rest of the came doing there thing with out much that can destroy them

 

Think about it. The Wave Serpent is the best transport in the game, it has problems for some units (it isn't an assault vehicle) and it in expensive. If you compare the level of fire power it has for its points. I think you will find it isn't that great. (It isn't bad) Now it could be a threat to your transports, but you can afford two for every wave serpent. They also leave themselves more vulnerable after doing this. So the Eldar player will have to choose, because in many cases he really will want the unit inside to get close to you! Fire Dragons will make a bigger mess of your transports. Although I will tell you that a DE player didn't find the serpent fields amusing.

 

I don't see them wiping out squads of marines. You are averaging on 8.5 shots a turn (assuming the hull weapon is out of range)... Let's call it 9. Those are TLed, meaning most will hit, Decent strength... So most will wound. 7 wounds isn't crazy. Power armor will save most of those. I'm just going to argue that this isn't the best use of a Wave Serpent. If they want a transport that will be its primary role, although I can see them trying to cripple enemy movements, especially if the enemy is relying on short ranged attacks. If I want to nuke marines... I can think of a better way to spend 125pts...

 

The big threat is the AP2 templates that disembark from the serpents... They will kill marines hiding in cover.

 

the wraithknight is jump so its not going to have any problem getting into combat and with the master crafted sword its going to average about 3 kills against t4 stuff every round of combat. that's 6 marines a turn or 3 tactical squads a game. the wave serpent is a necessity for elder to get everything into position and to protect the squishy t3 elder. no its not got the highest or best rate of fire in the codex but  wraithguard, fire dragons and dark reapers are all going to take them and most people will be taking those units. 8-13 str 6 and 7 shots all twin linked on a transport that you have to take is going to cause a lot of pain I think

[krustydave]

Fought the new-look eldar last night for the first time, what a change from the old book... its a real struggle now. I ONLY JUST won 11-10 in the 6th turn of Purge the Alien on Hammer and Anvil.

I was playing 2000 pts 1 F.O.C...with crons (sshh!) but what I found will be equally vallid when eventually end up playing Eldar with my UMs.

 

The stand out units were not all the fancy big new things, they were the troops and the Wave Serpents.  

D.Avengers in particular but guardians aswell.

The newly BS4 "rending lite" bladestorm which for all intents and purposes will be guided almost all the time is devastating, and the new run and shoot means they have effectively something like 27 and 21 inch average shooting ranges respectively, Thank god I was reanimating quite well, but if I'd been playing marines the game would have gone away from me fast. I lost 9 immortals (MEQ) and a cryptek in 1 round of guided shooting from just 8 DAs and 10 guardians with a star cannon. Firstly just getting them out the Wave Serpents in your turn so you can shoot the contents is a slow process, closing to rapid fire range is tricky and I can forsee Eldar troops getting the full volley drop on most quads of troops most of the time...Tau are probably the best counter but for bolter marines I feel you will not win in a shooting match. Cover is absolutely essential as you'll suffer 2-4 AP2 wounds per squad shooting at you. D.Avengers really are some of the best troops now. I thought about a space marine bolter scout at 13 pts Vs. a DAvng at 13 points...D.A feels hands down superior. 

Also watch for 2+ armoured jet bike squads with 2 shur.cannons, hard to kill and put alot of hurt down. My 2 cents.

[Grey Mage]

 

Id say if you dont get first turn vs a serpent- ie before it moves- then I wouldnt bother until you can get a juicy rear armor shot with massed guns. Since thats the access point, its likely to happen.

 

Maybe... but run shoot should be helpful for some units, I guess it depends how close you are willing to get to the enemy, or if they are willing to give you cover saves they might just shoot through the tank... Which is what we used to do with Dire Avengers... Although we now have to think about how that will affect our bladestorm hits.

Yeah, I wouldnt hide behind the transport with new bladestorm, and I footslogged with old bladestorm....'

 

Of course, theres also vectored engines. But unless the serpent is truely being a pain in your hide theres more deadly units that should probably take those heavy weapon hits first. Fire Prisms for starters.

[Hellios]

the wraithknight is jump so its not going to have any problem getting into combat and with the master crafted sword its going to average about 3 kills against t4 stuff every round of combat. that's 6 marines a turn or 3 tactical squads a game. the wave serpent is a necessity for elder to get everything into position and to protect the squishy t3 elder. no its not got the highest or best rate of fire in the codex but  wraithguard, fire dragons and dark reapers are all going to take them and most people will be taking those units. 8-13 str 6 and 7 shots all twin linked on a transport that you have to take is going to cause a lot of pain I think

 

Oh I know it is jump infantry... but you should have at least one turn of shooting... Which is enough turns to kill it... It is all a matter of priority. Hammernators will cause problems for it in combat... Charges tactical marines? Lose a few marines... Hurt if you can... run away... shoot it. If you happen to be a marine that can't run away... Well Space Wolves should have some axes or power fists hidden in the squad. Dark Angels... XD I would like to introduce the Wraithknight to Smite mode. Blood Angles and Black Templars... Not sure what they can do (I'm sure they can do something) S10 force weapons probably won't hurt... especially considering the fact they will actually able to get powers off against Eldar.

[DWK]

So for roughly less than 280 pts, in the eldar codex, you get:

 

1. 10 Dire Avengers (arguably one of the best troop choices in the game given their new rules)

2.  a Waveserpent with a scatter laser and shurken cannon (again arguably one of the toughest troop transports in the game)

 

In short, the best scoring, medium range delivery system in the game which marines will have a hard time dealing with UNLESS we shoot them in the rear armor.  Some answers I can think of off the top of my head:

 

1. Outflanking ravenwing squadrons with multi melta attack bikes

2. Belial and squad deepstriking with no scatter

3. Lucky whirlwind rear armor pen

 

Everything else we have will just glance their tanks giving them enough time to swoop in and shoot us...

[Grey Mage]

Except the troops that pop out are T3 with a 4+ save. When have marines ever had a hard time dealing with that?
 

Try missile launcher devastators- they shine here, as do all those heavy weapons in tactical squads and plasmaguns. Aegis line guns can be used on skimmers as easily as on flyers too. Or landspeeder Typhoons.... lovely lovely landspeeders.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Penning the armor of a Wave Serpent is not going to be something we see often; the 2+ to downgrade pens to glances is just too good.  My opponent yesterday only had one grav tank, a Serpent; I hit it with lascannons, plasma guns, and melta guns, consistently getting hits each turn, and at the end of 5 it was still operational with one hull point left.  What you need instead is weight of fire, and the means to concentrate it on a single target until that target goes away.  In this way, we might see a resurgence in the use of the famed Rifleman, since it brings a relatively cheap means of providing multiple and reliable heavy weapons.  Quad missile Devastators are another good option, I agree, and I hope they drop in price when the new C:SM hits in the fall.

[d@n]

 

the wraithknight is jump so its not going to have any problem getting into combat and with the master crafted sword its going to average about 3 kills against t4 stuff every round of combat. that's 6 marines a turn or 3 tactical squads a game. the wave serpent is a necessity for elder to get everything into position and to protect the squishy t3 elder. no its not got the highest or best rate of fire in the codex but  wraithguard, fire dragons and dark reapers are all going to take them and most people will be taking those units. 8-13 str 6 and 7 shots all twin linked on a transport that you have to take is going to cause a lot of pain I think

 

Oh I know it is jump infantry... but you should have at least one turn of shooting... Which is enough turns to kill it... It is all a matter of priority. Hammernators will cause problems for it in combat... Charges tactical marines? Lose a few marines... Hurt if you can... run away... shoot it. If you happen to be a marine that can't run away... Well Space Wolves should have some axes or power fists hidden in the squad. Dark Angels... XD I would like to introduce the Wraithknight to Smite mode. Blood Angles and Black Templars... Not sure what they can do (I'm sure they can do something) S10 force weapons probably won't hurt... especially considering the fact they will actually able to get powers off against Eldar.

I don't see trying to gun a wraith knight down in the first turn as a practical tactic . the only things that ignore its armour save  and have a high chance of actually wounding it are laser cannons  metla krak missiles  and plasma weaponry how many of those types of weapons do you take? because you have to cause 6 wounds, and a little under half your shots are going to fail to hit on average and out of those half that do hit more then half are going to fail to wound (laser cannons are wounding on 3s for example) and then its probably getting a cover save or its 5+ inv save. even if you do kill it first turn you have allowed all the wave serpents filled with d scythe wraith guard, fire dragons, dark reapers ect to  get into position and pathfinders to  sniper your sergeant's heavy weapon/special weapon independent characters with precision  shot, you get the picture . any elder player would happily trade a wraith knight for a turn  where they get to get everything to position without the majority of there army being fired on.

 

how are you going to get hammernators to it? if you put them in a landraider the wraith knight is going to get to the land raider first(its likely to be the first thing it charges rather then a squad of marines) and destroy it and the wraith guard with d scythe's will wipe out the termys. the wraith guard will do the same with foot sloggers or deep strikers so the only way is in a storm raven and then you end up with a dead storm raven and maybe half your termy's dead at least. not really a good trade for one wiathknight . remember your thunder hammers are only wounding it on 4+ and it has a 5+ inv save. marines cant even hurt  it with bolters or in ccw and running probably isn't going to work as the wraith knight has a higher  chance of catching you . im not saying its indestructible but its worth its point.  

[d@n]

So for roughly less than 280 pts, in the eldar codex, you get:

 

1. 10 Dire Avengers (arguably one of the best troop choices in the game given their new rules)

2.  a Waveserpent with a scatter laser and shurken cannon (again arguably one of the toughest troop transports in the game)

 

In short, the best scoring, medium range delivery system in the game which marines will have a hard time dealing with UNLESS we shoot them in the rear armor.  Some answers I can think of off the top of my head:

 

1. Outflanking ravenwing squadrons with multi melta attack bikes

2. Belial and squad deepstriking with no scatter

3. Lucky whirlwind rear armor pen

 

Everything else we have will just glance their tanks giving them enough time to swoop in and shoot us...

its not even about dire avengers anymore.  10  jetbikes, basically with  the stats of a marine and 20 re-rollable blade storm shots for the price of a bog standard tactical  squad ! or all precision shots snipers with a 2+ cover save

[Hellios]

If it is coming to me... I don't need transports to get to it.

 

I tend to carry a lot of firepower. However... I wouldn't be using my Anti-tank/MC weapons on infantry... So no... Rangers and Dark Reapers still have a good chance of eating some. Wave Serpents? They are probably going to be a pain to take down anyway. I don't plan on destroying the Wave Serpents straight away. Wave Serpents don't concern me. Contents might... but there isn't much you can do about that, except make sure they waste their first strike and then punish them afterwards.

[d@n]

If it is coming to me... I don't need transports to get to it.

 

I tend to carry a lot of firepower. However... I wouldn't be using my Anti-tank/MC weapons on infantry... So no... Rangers and Dark Reapers still have a good chance of eating some. Wave Serpents? They are probably going to be a pain to take down anyway. I don't plan on destroying the Wave Serpents straight away. Wave Serpents don't concern me. Contents might... but there isn't much you can do about that, except make sure they waste their first strike and then punish them afterwards.

I don't understand what you mean. could you elaborate?

[McFisty]

@d@n

What Hellios is referring to is the strategy that, as Space Marines or equivalent armies, we can not out maneuver Eldar. So we can wait for them to come to us and deal with their units after they disembark from their transports. This usually means that we deploy bunched up in a corner of the table and do our best to protect our units from getting pwned as soon as their units deploy from their transports. Then we react at short range with our anti-infantry units. I personally use a Land Raider almost every game, so it is used as a wall against Eldar. Even if Fire Dragons blow up my Land Raider, the units inside of it, or nearby it, will destroy the Fire Dragons right after that. Unless you feel confident that you can glance the Wave Serpent to death before it reaches you, I would recommend shooting your anti-tank/MC firepower at things like Fire Prisms and Wraithlords and Wraithknights. Be advised that if you try to move around or get too clever with your deployment that Eldar will pick you apart at their leisure.  Above all else, focus on their troops.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If the Wave Serpent is carrying Avengers or Guardians -- Hell, even Dragons, though that one's up in the air -- I'd agree.  Divert your fire to something you have better chances to kill easily.  But if one of those Serpents is carrying Wraithguard, especially if those Wraithguard are armed with d-scythes, move Heaven and Earth to knock that friggin' thing out of the sky early.  D-scythes are only S4, but they can ID characters on a roll of 6, deny FNP to every one of our units that can possibly get it, and are AP2 AND Ignores Cover (being a template).  They WILL kill any Marine unit they look at.  Not even Hammernators are safe since they'll be putting enough wounds on them to get through the storm shields unless Tzeentch seriously loads your dice.

[Hellios]

If the Wave Serpent is carrying Avengers or Guardians -- Hell, even Dragons, though that one's up in the air -- I'd agree.  Divert your fire to something you have better chances to kill easily.  But if one of those Serpents is carrying Wraithguard, especially if those Wraithguard are armed with d-scythes, move Heaven and Earth to knock that friggin' thing out of the sky early.  D-scythes are only S4, but they can ID characters on a roll of 6, deny FNP to every one of our units that can possibly get it, and are AP2 AND Ignores Cover (being a template).  They WILL kill any Marine unit they look at.  Not even Hammernators are safe since they'll be putting enough wounds on them to get through the storm shields unless Tzeentch seriously loads your dice.

 

 

I would like to point out that part of my not destroying Wave Serpents was also due to... just knocking them out of the sky. TL-*insert weapon here* and the new offensive shield ability are nice. However, Eldar players are spending over 100pts for a durable transport. Stop it from moving and it can no longer perform its primary function. Unless it is already where it needs to be and troops are just hiding inside/behind it. When I've played against people with my Eldar, people have lost games because they have tried to destroy my transport when they should have moved onto another. Unless you need to get close to a downed transport, the dangerous unit inside only has a limited threat range which can be worked around (If you stop the transport from moving early on). 

 

Let's take a scenario where we are fighting an entirely mechanized Eldar army. You can split those vehicles into two categories.

 

1)Transports - I'm going to include the Falcon in this, so the Wave serpent isn't lonely. While the weapons these transports have can pose a danger, the major danger is often posed by the unit inside. The first priority is to stop them moving. This a bigger deal to Eldar than it is to Space Marines.

 

2)Tanks (I guess you can add the flyer and Vypers to this as well) - These just kill things. So you need to ask yourself what is the biggest threat to your army? The Fire Prism is likely to be high up on the list.

 

You need to work out how these units are going to work together. D-Scythes are not a huge threat to your tanks (They can damage them, but they not efficient at it and they really want to go after infantry), so if everyone is in rhinos, you might want to take out the tanks that are the biggest threat to rhinos (although in this case... That is most of the Eldar vehicles... but a Night Spinner for example poses only a limited threat to vehicles)

 

Anyway the general rule is simple. Stop the transports from moving, stop the tanks from shooting. It probably isn't such a huge issue if the transport with the guardians move, or if the Night Spinner can shoot. Even if you only stop them from moving/shooting for a turn... That is good enough; It loses a HP and you can shoot it again next turn. Priority is the key thing here. If you on average have a chance of penetrating 3 Eldar vehicles a turn... Which 3 vehicles will you choose, because you are facing 9.

 

If you blow one up, great, you have done better than you expected. Obviously each battle is different. You may face a situation when playing against Eldar where you know that UNIT X must die. If so go for it. Most of the time stopping the Eldar from playing their game is enough. You will slowly wear them down, and if you get immobilized or destroyed results you start moving the game in your favor. Marines will generally win a war of attrition with Eldar. Eldar will crush Marines if the marine player let's the Eldar player do what he wants.

 

I would compare the Eldar to Dark Eldar. Except the Dark Eldar are more extreme. Dark Eldar tend to win big or die fast. Eldar are more durable and so aren't out of the game as quickly, but if you can control the game for the first few turns... The Eldar player probably won't like it.

[d@n]

@d@n

What Hellios is referring to is the strategy that, as Space Marines or equivalent armies, we can not out maneuver Eldar. So we can wait for them to come to us and deal with their units after they disembark from their transports. This usually means that we deploy bunched up in a corner of the table and do our best to protect our units from getting pwned as soon as their units deploy from their transports. Then we react at short range with our anti-infantry units. I personally use a Land Raider almost every game, so it is used as a wall against Eldar. Even if Fire Dragons blow up my Land Raider, the units inside of it, or nearby it, will destroy the Fire Dragons right after that. Unless you feel confident that you can glance the Wave Serpent to death before it reaches you, I would recommend shooting your anti-tank/MC firepower at things like Fire Prisms and Wraithlords and Wraithknights. Be advised that if you try to move around or get too clever with your deployment that Eldar will pick you apart at their leisure.  Above all else, focus on their troops.

the strategy of castling imo is probably redundant against elder now. it worked well with the old out dated codex as pretty much all elder players took was aspect warriors, a very elite high point cost army with few models. now pretty much all the over priced units have had a massive point cost reduction(dark reapers by about 50%), twined with the army wide increase in ballistic skill and weapon skill for all the guardian variants, elder armys are going to play very differently.

the new codex works completely differently. there's so many things in there that can stay out of line of sight move shoot then run back out of line of site with battle focus. plus a lot and mean a lot of pinning stuff and  stuff that just point blankly ignores marine armour saves .

[Iron Father Ferrum]

How do you expect to stop a Serpent from moving?  Crew Stunned or Shaken results?  Good luck actually pushing a penetrating hit through a 4+ cover AND a 2+ Serpent Shield effect.  And if the opponent actually took spirit stones, there's another save they get to ignore it.  The only reliable, consistent way to stop a Serpent is to kill it.

[Koremu]

Or Deep Strike Multi-Melta Land Speeders behind it.

[Hellios]

I have ways of dealing with cover saves Bwahahaha. But on a more serious note... I'm happy I can pen... and that a number of my pens will probably get at least a +1. So I'm happy that I will something. It really depends what the Eldar player takes. Wave Serpents are expensive... those upgrades start stacking up as well. I'm pretty sure immobilized results stop them as well. It really depends on what one has. For example if you have taken drop pods and someone is playing aggressive mech Eldar... Rear armor is a possibility. Also some people seem to think that Serpents will be using their shields to shoot all the time... I disagree, they will do that if they think they can alpha-strike or if they feel they are safe until you close with them. If people  do shoot however... no shield. I can also think of some psychic powers that can be annoying for skimmers. It all depends what codex/list you are using... and do you have allies? Anyway... I defeated the 4th edition Flying Circus with Ork shooting (I admit that was saturation, which will still work, but marines are not as good at that in general... certain allies are pretty good), and I will do it again!

 

I admit you can't rely on stopping wave serpents, but that is why you also have to position yourself in such a way that their contents have no good targets. If you stop the fire prisms from opening your transports... What will they do? Waste Fire Dragons/Wraithguard on a Rhino? Fine. Use their Wave Serpents guns? Sure... But will they do it? They might take HPs off, but they might have trouble destroying a rhino in one turn... Will they use their field? They put themselves at risk if they use it before turn 2 or 3.

 

Maybe I'm too positive. I have been on both sides of the game when it comes to Eldar. A good player will cause you trouble. A less experienced player will make mistakes like using their serpent field when the defensive mode would serve them better. You should use that against them.

 

I know you want to know how to defeat a skilled Eldar player.If you can kill them with saturation fire... Great... Most all comers lists won't have enough. So I propose you have two options. Rely on luck. Or take the initiative (Stealing it probably wouldn't hurt :P), never let the Eldar player get into a position where they are dictating terms. I think that the Eldar are one of the most touchy feely armies. You just need to learn to read them. There is a lot of potential for synergy and each army, commander and board will have an impact on that. I can't give a point and click solution. I can only suggest that you shouldn't get overly concerned about a unit. The fortuned Avatar is scary... but I probably want you to shoot at it. If I have an indestructible wave serpent... Ask yourself will the benefit of using  X amount of effort it will take to destroy it and its scary contents outweigh using that firepower to destroy 3 Fire Prisms instead.

 

Every battle is different. Sometimes it will be a yes... but 75% of the time it will be a no.

[d@n]

Or Deep Strike Multi-Melta Land Speeders behind it.

land speeders are probably the worst thing against elder due to there speed and the fact they can take heavy flamers as heavy flamers obliterate elder  units and ignore cover which so much of the new codex depends on. if you have land speeders you would be much better off taking out pathfinders or jet bikes ect then wasting them to maybe destroy 1 transport

[d@n]

I have ways of dealing with cover saves Bwahahaha. But on a more serious note... I'm happy I can pen... and that a number of my pens will probably get at least a +1. So I'm happy that I will something. It really depends what the Eldar player takes. Wave Serpents are expensive... those upgrades start stacking up as well. I'm pretty sure immobilized results stop them as well. It really depends on what one has. For example if you have taken drop pods and someone is playing aggressive mech Eldar... Rear armor is a possibility. Also some people seem to think that Serpents will be using their shields to shoot all the time... I disagree, they will do that if they think they can alpha-strike or if they feel they are safe until you close with them. If people do shoot however... no shield. I can also think of some psychic powers that can be annoying for skimmers. It all depends what codex/list you are using... and do you have allies? Anyway... I defeated the 4th edition Flying Circus with Ork shooting (I admit that was saturation, which will still work, but marines are not as good at that in general... certain allies are pretty good), and I will do it again!

I admit you can't rely on stopping wave serpents, but that is why you also have to position yourself in such a way that their contents have no good targets. If you stop the fire prisms from opening your transports... What will they do? Waste Fire Dragons/Wraithguard on a Rhino? Fine. Use their Wave Serpents guns? Sure... But will they do it? They might take HPs off, but they might have trouble destroying a rhino in one turn... Will they use their field? They put themselves at risk if they use it before turn 2 or 3.

Maybe I'm too positive. I have been on both sides of the game when it comes to Eldar. A good player will cause you trouble. A less experienced player will make mistakes like using their serpent field when the defensive mode would serve them better. You should use that against them.

I know you want to know how to defeat a skilled Eldar player.If you can kill them with saturation fire... Great... Most all comers lists won't have enough. So I propose you have two options. Rely on luck. Or take the initiative (Stealing it probably wouldn't hurt ), never let the Eldar player get into a position where they are dictating terms. I think that the Eldar are one of the most touchy feely armies. You just need to learn to read them. There is a lot of potential for synergy and each army, commander and board will have an impact on that. I can't give a point and click solution. I can only suggest that you shouldn't get overly concerned about a unit. The fortuned Avatar is scary... but I probably want you to shoot at it. If I have an indestructible wave serpent... Ask yourself will the benefit of using X amount of effort it will take to destroy it and its scary contents outweigh using that firepower to destroy 3 Fire Prisms instead.

Every battle is different. Sometimes it will be a yes... but 75% of the time it will be a no.

you make some very good points. no one is going to be firing there serpent shields every turn. but the fact is that 1 out of 6 pen shots is going to be ignored due to the serpent shield. armour 12 is not easy to pen anyway and the wave serpent is going to be on a 3-4+ cover save most of the time, on top of that as you have said in a previous post most weapons that can easily pen it will be fired at the a wraith knight making them expensive but very survivable.

destroying rhinos isn't a problem really there is so much ap 1&2 stuff in the codex and blade storm is so good at dealing with infantry it leaves you free to spam loads of ap1-2 in other places ... haywire grenades bright lances star cannons are cheaper and abundant even scatter lasers have a pretty good chance due to pure volume of strength 6 fire to destroy a rhino in one turn . fire dragons are not even an auto include anymore due to the vehicle rules are 6th ed.

I also think the troop choice that will be most popular is going to be jet bikes led my a warlock who will be taking a singing spears which are a strength 9 as a ranged weapon and armour bane in assault, and who will also make getting psychic powers of hard as there's most likely going to be a ton of them.

there by no means invincible they are just going to play very differently. all types of flamers are going to be a problem for them and they have next to nothing that can take flakk missiles