So today I faced Heldrakes

[Robert2004]

As the title and tags say today was all of the above for me lol.

 

I played a local player who is very good and plays on the Northern Irish six nations team and plays lots of tournaments so wasn't expecting to win the battle by a long stretch but gosh did I get a harsh lesson.

 

He had two Heldrakes and two of the necron flyers who get two shots on a roll of 6 lol. His flame breath and vector strike was lethal, just lethal killed so many marines it was stupid they are definitely broken.... madness. He also had some chaos spawn a lord on a beast and some necron wraiths a few cultist squads and so on to fill the troops slots. 

 

I had a stormraven recently bought which held up well considering it was 4-1 in the skies lol, some allied tau for the anti air and a quad gun on a ADL! Interesting game but failed to see what I could have done better. Even stole first blood with my sternguard...

 

Questions is how to counter or at least fight for a draw against heldrake spam? He normally runs three heldrakes for a total of like 1k points in flyers...... =/

[Warsmith Aznable]

I run 1 to 2 Heldrakes fairly often. A Storm Raven or Mortis Pattern Dreadnought is a generally effective counter to what I do. I figure that I'll get the Heldrake on the table, flame a squad, and then get shot down by one of those two vehicles. Spamming Heldrakes also narrows the options and effectiveness of CSM scoring units, so try to exploit that. I can tell you that being forced to take cultists or small, stripped squads of CSM in order to afford my daemonic toys can be a painful tradeoff, especially in scenarios where holding objectives is necessary.

[Zombie P]

As for the necron fliers, they both have tesla destructors (they are those stupid +2 hits on a 6 things), did he ever use a death ray? If he did then you would be facing off against doom scythes. Although looking at what you said, I would imagine that they were Night scythes, as doom scythes are far less useful. 

 

As for advice, I would second -Max-, that sounds like that list is full of toys and bells/whistles. I assume that his troops didn't do a lot during the game, just hunkered down and got out of the way. That would have been his weak point. I would imagine that he too two minimum units of warriors for the necrons. They would have been the real hard ones, because I shouldnt think they were deployed on the board until turn 5?

 

This is all just guessing, which list did you run and can you think of what units he had in his list?

 

ZP

 

Edit: Sorry DarkGuard.

[Ishagu]

A list with 4 flyers could be considered quite cheesy. Imo he shouldnt be playing this way in friendlies.

[Deus de Mortalis]

But, but, Games Workshop never thought anybody would take more than one Heldrake! I mean, how can your army have more than one centerpiece???

 

But really, don't hate the player, hate the game. It is Games Workshop's fault for these shenanigans. They would love for all of us to run four fliers in our lists.

[DarkGuard]

Lets make sure that this becomes a thread on how to counter Helldrakes and flyer spam, not another moan on GW's rules. Such posts will be removed.

[Robert2004]

A quick run down of my list and his list from what I can remember,

 

Mine was HQ - Librarian, plasma pistol.

 

2x10m tactical squads, rhino, razorback, various weapons.

 

Sternguard vets, 3 multi melta and drop pod.

 

Devastator squad 4xML

 

Stormraven gunship, lascannons, multimelta, hurricane bolters.

 

Aegis defense line, quad gun.

 

Tau allies.

 

Commander, 2ML drones, drone controller, velocity tracker, missile pod, ion blaster, neuro chip which I used to take tank hunters.

 

2x6 fire warrior squads basic.

 

3x crisis suits, missile pod x2, fushion blaster x1, plasma rifle x2, velocity tracker x3, 2xgun drones, 2xshield drones.

 

4xML drones in a squad.

 

 

His list was something like this.

 

Chaos lord on a beast with chaos spawn around him

 

level two chaos librarian

 

2x10 cultists

 

3xobliterators

 

2xheldrakes

 

Necron allies

 

Destroyer lord and wraiths around him

 

2x5 necron warriors

 

1xbattle barge

 

2xnight scythe (I think, the one that gets +2 shots on a 6)

 

----

 

Thats what I remember from my brief memory of the game. Anything for me from the info above guys?

 

Edit - His troops just sat about basically coming from reserves, and on going reserves as I destroyed his flyers. His elites managed to get to my gun line as I choose to focus on the bloody flyers and time I killed them he was on top of me assaulting what was left of my forces after the heldrakes just came and wiped me.....

[Warsmith Aznable]

2000+ points double FOC? Maybe thin down the points you spend on allies to take a stronger primary list? A second Storm Raven, or maybe a clutch of Storm Talons with lascannons instead of spending points on allies? Or only focusing on the Tau's AA ability instead of trying to use them as a miniature primary force?

 

Basic Tau geared for AA:

Commander with XV8-02, Velocity Tracker, some shield drones, and a weapon worth shooting at AV12.

6 Firewarriors with Drones

Riptide with Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker, some ML Shield Drones

 

Combine the Riptide and the XV8-02 and their shield drones into a roving AA, anti-armour unit with Invulns and an armour save the Heldrakes can't bypass, sit the Firewarriors on a rear objective and have them try to look inconspicuous, spend the rest of your points on your primary detachment.

 

Also, you can't have ML Drones with anybody but your XV-88 team since the first FAQ. I'm not a Tau player, so I may be missing something, but I believe that's the case.

 

Take a Teleport Homer on a Storm Raven and drop some TH/SS Terminators on his head, see what his Heldrakes think about that.

[Robert2004]

Ha ha so I was cheating by taking my ML drone squad and attaching my commander to them? I was using the Tau as an AA hard hitting force as I do not have much AA, I've no storm talons either so my list was the best of what I could muster as I knew he was taking a heavy flyer list of at least four which I could do very little about as I only have the stormraven and aegis defense line.

 

What weapons should I of taken with my suits then which would have better delt with the flyers?

[Muctar]

Stormtalons cannot escort anything that arrives by deep strike, which means no escorting drop pods.

 

As for combating flyer spam, especially Helldrakes, the quad gun you have is helpful. If you're playing double FOC find a way to get two in you list. A bastion and an ADL would do the trick. Since Helldrakes have a 5++ they have no need to evade, therefore they will always be able to baleflame. Since you cannot force them into a situation where they have to choose between survival (through evadiing) or doing damage, you need to take them out ASAP in order to minimize your casualties. The quad gun is the best option for taking out a helldrake as it enters the board through hull point removal, or a lucky penetration. The Icarus Lascannon has a better chance of taking them out in one shot, but only if you hit, penetrate, and if your opponent fails his 5++.

Either way, as a current C:SM player, if your opponent if running 2+ flyers you need to try to intercept one the turn it comes in, take the damage they deal, then respond in your turn with your own air power, and afterwards anything you feel you can spare to snap shot to take out that last hull point. As it stands right now we're limited in how we can respond. For this reason I find it helpful to go second when facing flyer spam, as my flyers can get the drop on the opponents' and can be most effective. 

[Ming]

What was the actual mission?

 

There are a couple of things to do when multiple heldrakes +/- other flyers are involved. 

 

(1) Don't put key units w/in 36 inches of the heldrake deployment edge until after they come in from reserves.

 

(2) Stay in vehicles, or if on foot spread out to the maximim 2 inch distance.  There are threads around that speak to the flamer template defense pattern.  

 

(3) If you do not have dedicated AA or flyers of your own - move your units to get behind the enemy Helldrakes.  Force him to leave flyer mode in order to get attacks in, or decide to fly off somewhere else.

 

(4) Keep a scoring unit in reserves. 

 

(5) Follow the mission and if objectives are the key, kill off the opponents scoring units.  

 

If you can plan in advance, you can counter the meta by:

 

(a) take your own dedicated flame-resistant and vector-strike-resistant AA.

 

(b) take abilities that create modifiers to the opponent's (and your own) reserve rolls.

 

© bring units that can be twin linked with a strength and number of dice able to take three HPs from a flyer in a turn. Single shot AA weapons don't provide the reliability needed. 

 

(d) if possible defer the opponent to going first so if his flyers come on turn 2 you can react to them with lesser impact on your own tactical battle plan plus the time to recover from it on the last turn. 

 

Overall, tactically, air power and air superiority is a key element added in 6th edition.  You ignore it at your own peril. 

 

Overall, I'd say that when list building, you can expect:

 

500-1250 points, one flyer

1250-1750 points, two fliers

1750-2000 points, more than two fliers. 

 

So, in small games, a single dual purpose AA-capable unit (like an aegis) is OK.

 

In games 1250 - 1750, One dedicated AA and one dual-purpose AA is probably OK.

 

At 1750 - 2000, one dedicated AA and 2+ dual-purpose AA would be needed.

 

Units that can be considered dedicated AA from a SM point of view:

 

Stormtalon with Skyhammer MLs

Stormraven

Aegis quad gun (best operated by a replaceable unit with good BS)

Contemptor Mortis with dual Kheres Assault Cannon arms

Whirlwind Hyperios (or launchers/control unit variant)

 

Units that can be considered dual-purpose AA from a SM point of view:

 

Plasmagun-spammed command squads or sternguard squads (better put invulnerable saves on these guys through a librarian! - even better if your SM variant allows prescience-like twin-linking to be cast on them)

Terminator squads with dual-cyclone MLs

Devastator squads with quad MLs (better put invulnerable saves on these guys through a librarian! - even better if your SM variant allows prescience-like twin-linking to be cast on them)

TL Assault Cannon-variant razorbacks

 

Similar list / unit classifications could be made for IG, or your typical allies.

 

Of course, all of this has to be measured carefully against what else your opponent brings to the table, and your own ability to stay on-mission. 

[Warsmith Aznable]

Stormtalons cannot escort anything that arrives by deep strike, which means no escorting drop pods.

That'll learn me to make suggestions without rechecking the rules.

[Robert2004]

The mission was 'the scourging' and deployment was hammer and anvil which limited how far I could spread out as we played on a pre made board which looked like it was designed for fantasy battles. I was pretty clumped together to be fair, there was a lot of hills about my deployment zone but I managed to get the better deal, however it didn't matter as he had very little deployed. He kept a squad of cultists, 2 heldrakes and 2 necron night scythes in reserve and deployed his battle barge, cultist and sorcerer, chaos spawn and lord, destroyer lord and wraiths as close to me as possible. 

 

I am considering buying a stormtalon just so I can use it to escort my stormraven and hopefully that will help me to control the skies. I did intercept the heldrake and got two hull points off it but it still had one left and then he rolled for it will not die and managed to get it back up to two hull points!!

 

I sort of panicked and tried to snap fire my missile devastators into his heldrake which was a mistake as I should of had a good go at the melee troops who were bearing down on my gun line, in hindsight that was a mistake. In the future I will not get too flustered from the big scary thing and try and keep my cool and engage the correct targets with the correct units ha ha!!   

[Ishagu]

You say this guy had Necron allies? I hope he didnt use them to capture objectives.

 

Any form of ally other than battle brothers count as enemy you can't attack and cant be used to hold objectives....

[Grey Mage]

Id avoid using a bastion vs heldrakes if possible, any part of the template clips a fireport and youll take a beating.

 

Also, Ishagu- check the eratta again buddy. Allies of convenience claim objectives as though they were fully friendly models.
 

[minigun762]

Nice thing with bastion is immune to vector strikes. Plus D6 hits might be less than if you're exposed. It's a gamble.

[Grey Mage]

I suppose thats fair enough, Im used to small heavy weapon teams, but if youre running havocs/devastators it probably wouldnt be so bad.

[eiglepulper]

Just to clarify a small point made earlier: the restriction concerning Drones is that *missile drones* can only be given to XV88 teams as per GW FAQ. Joining a Commander with a Drone Controller to a ML (=Markerlight) Drone squadron is perfectly permissible.

 

E.

[Robert2004]

Tomorrow (Sunday) I am facing the same guy and he is bringing three of the buggers, anyone got any last min advice lol? I need to buy more flyers and the whirlwind needs up dated to be anti air also!! =]

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Three Drakes?  He must not like having friends.

[minigun762]

Tomorrow (Sunday) I am facing the same guy and he is bringing three of the buggers, anyone got any last min advice lol? I need to buy more flyers and the whirlwind needs up dated to be anti air also!! =]

 

Remember the butt is AV10.

Space out to 2" whenever possible.

Don't forget the objective.

[Robert2004]

Three Drakes?  He must not like having friends.

Ha ha ha the local people call him 'Gary the hobby killer' that should paint a picture of how this guy plays etc....

 

Yes I will be spreading out and sitting in my transports as well as keeping 36 away then moving fast past the drake to try and miss its massive damage when it they come on board. Scary. I will prob buy a stormtalon next week to help me fight back ha ha

[WarriorFish]

I think the phrase "say no more" was invented for times like this...

How did you fare? Regarding a Stormtalon this topic was very helpful to me and is well worth a read if you haven't already.

[Ishagu]

That thread is old.

Strmtalon rules are as follows:

 

Av11 all round BS4

Ceramite Plating

Escort Craft

Strafing Run

[Robert2004]

I was demolished... I will start a new thread with the exact list he used against me looking for advice on how to beat it. Very poor showing from me and I was disappointed.