Scars

[Scribe]

Also depends on how culturally strict the Legion is in terms of philosophy I would guess. There is a marked difference between the philosophy of ancient eastern and western thought in a number of contexts, maybe thats part it...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

What I am unsure about is the reason for the remarked discrimination towards

non-east Asian inductees, at least before Khan and Chogoris rolled

along. Was the affinity for mongol like warfare a product of this

discrimination or was it the parent?

 

Most likely, the Scars have a tribal/clannish mentality. They just want to induct people who look like them. Since the original colonists of Chogoris were of East Asian descent, they pick Terrans from hive cities with mostly East Asian inhabitants

 

 

But wouldn't that mean that they were inducting Terrans even after their Primarch was found?

[High MarshalGR]

 

 

Well the whole legion mentality has been revealed as the type that yearns to

feel their hair blow in the wind. The word escapes me. Spiritually and

culturally keen, and they regard warfare as an art more so than any

other legion.

 

It almost seems like they view war as an expression of the soul. Of the combatant's true nature. The White Scars fight with savagery, swiftness, exuberance, and almost a wild, devil-may-care spirit sometimes. The SW "pretend" to be barbarians, but the Scars seem to be more honest in the sense that what you see is what you get. War is almost like an artform they enjoy. Whereas most other legions approach war more as a science. Even the Space Wolves are very practical and efficient. The Scars seem to be more concerned about fighting in the way they enjoy.

 

 

>

What I am unsure about is the reason for the remarked discrimination towards

non-east Asian inductees, at least before Khan and Chogoris rolled

along. Was the affinity for mongol like warfare a product of this

discrimination or was it the parent?

 

Most likely, the Scars have a tribal/clannish mentality. They just want to induct people who look like them. Since the original colonists of Chogoris were of East Asian descent, they pick Terrans from hive cities with mostly East Asian inhabitants

 

 

They are great indeed... And from what I've read, Khan was one of the Primarchs who embrased the ideal of the Imperium and the Emperor as the one being capable of achieving it.

[Conn Eremon]

 

But wouldn't that mean that they were inducting Terrans even after their Primarch was found?

Why wouldn't they? I don't remember anything saying that Terran recruits were cut off once their Primarchs were found. Overwhelmed by the new home world's recruits, I can see. But many Legions seemed to take recruits from many worlds other than their own, if they even had one. Keeping Terra as a source makes sense.

[Kol Saresk]

True, but at the same time, Terra is way back at ground zero. For the fleets all the way at the fringes of the crusade, it could take a really long time for recruits from Terra, to reach a fleet that is say, near the Ghoul Stars, or past the Maelstrom. To me, it would seem like the point of recruiting from multiple worlds isn't to promote diversity, but essential so those recruits are right there at the front line. The only reason homeworlds were so valued and where just constantly pumping out initiates was because of their relation to the Primarch. I'd be willing to bet the other worlds were maybe only recruited from once or twice before being forgotten about. That and since pretty much all of the Terrans I can think of being named and described started out pre-Primarch, it seems like this was pretty much the case. Build the Legion at Terra, repair it along the way and then rebuild it at the Homeworld. Unless its the World Eaters. Give his homeworld a wide berth.

[depthcharge12]

@kais

 

Hahaha I think your jurassic park instinct kicked in:

 

'If I don't move, maybe he wont notice me'

 

I get the same reaction, but after a minute, the scrappy irishman in me says, "c'mon laddie we can take him down. Then a pint afterwards t'whether we win or lose!"

 

oh and how do the scars see void combat? its not like their hair can whip around in the wind (in spess, noone can watch your hair flow) but i guess do they have that 'war ballet' style where it just seems like a coreographed thing that they see as art and is a passion for them?

[Conn Eremon]

I agree, Kol. But I think that, with the infrastructure still in place, Terra can still churn out a steady stream of recruits. It isn't as if each Terran recruit means one less recruit elsewhere. They'd be extra.

[Kais Klip]

I'm not even sure if lower/high benchmarks and lower/higher implantation safety combined with the high demand of legions would offset the administrative cost of Terran recruits to a far flung region, and if such variables would change for the 41st millennium. For now I agree with Kol on this one, most of the legion's we have concrete evidence off (mainly those in the Heresy Betrayal Book) stemmed off their Terran recruitment down to a more ceremonial role after their Primarch worlds were found. Even those that aren't reliably commented on, we can pretty much assume such as Night Lords (many others, but they escape me at the moment). 

[Kol Saresk]

True enough Cormac, it just seems like such an overabundance of initiates can get redundant. Fleets can only have so much personnel capacity.

[Wade Garrett]

The truth is, the Night of the Wolf began with Angron asking if he could accept Leman as his spiritual liege and join the VI Legion as a battle brother.

 

He only attacked the Wolf King when Russ told him that though he was a decent warrior, he could never join the Route, since his gene seed was not that of Russ himself.

 

For the pain of the Butcher's Nails and even death itself was as nothing compared to the knowledge that no matter what feats of slaughter and mayhem he accomplished, he could never be a Space Wolf.

[Conn Eremon]

During the Great Crusade, though, you can always build more fleets. I don't know, it just seems weird to have all that infrastructure to mass produce Marines better than anyone or anywhere else to just sit there unused when it isn't as if the Imperium is running out of resources at that time, or that there wouldn't be a use for them. While the Crusade was reaching the Ghoul Stars, there would still be a need for fleets in Sol Segmentum.

[Kol Saresk]

The Astartes are frontline soldiers. There only be dragons where the Imperium had yet to map. The job of the Astartes are to kill those dragons, hang the skulls as trophies, wear the teeth and claws as jewelry and drape the scales over their shoulders as cloaks. Not sip tea and hope the Imperium falls under siege.

 

Granted, if Horus' tradition of leaving Army units and garrisons at "newly-Compliant" worlds holds true for every, or at least 85-95%, of the Expedition Fleets, then it is more than likely that defense fleets would be built and manned and used to patrol the Imperium's territory. But I doubt many of them would have Space Marine contingents, except maybe those in the Sol system or at the home systems and major recruiting grounds/ allies(such as Forgeworld Sarum) of the Legions.

[DarthMarko]

The truth is, the Night of the Wolf began with Angron asking if he could accept Leman as his spiritual liege and join the VI Legion as a battle brother.

 

He only attacked the Wolf King when Russ told him that though he was a decent warrior, he could never join the Route, since his gene seed was not that of Russ himself.

 

For the pain of the Butcher's Nails and even death itself was as nothing compared to the knowledge that no matter what feats of slaughter and mayhem he accomplished, he could never be a Space Wolf.

This UM/Bobby G analogy will be forever used in verbal showdowns....

 

On topic :  Reading episodal parts every week ??? Good or bad ?

 

I kind of planned on waiting for a full novel...But I don't know if I'm gonna hold much longer, pressure is killing me...

[Kol Saresk]

Let me put it to you this way. US$36 for an ebook that takes up twelve different files that may or may not include the fancy artworks. Or a hardback novel for US$30+tax that does come with all the fancy artwork. Personally, if I'm paying $30 either way, I want to be able to hold the book

[Scribe]

Yeah, and the segments are small enough that those who do bite the bullet for us can summarize easily...

[Kol Saresk]

True true.

[GhostMalone]

I gave in and bought ep 1&2 :) it's good

[Conn Eremon]

The Astartes are frontline soldiers. There only be dragons where the Imperium had yet to map. The job of the Astartes are to kill those dragons, hang the skulls as trophies, wear the teeth and claws as jewelry and drape the scales over their shoulders as cloaks. Not sip tea and hope the Imperium falls under siege.

 

Granted, if Horus' tradition of leaving Army units and garrisons at "newly-Compliant" worlds holds true for every, or at least 85-95%, of the Expedition Fleets, then it is more than likely that defense fleets would be built and manned and used to patrol the Imperium's territory. But I doubt many of them would have Space Marine contingents, except maybe those in the Sol system or at the home systems and major recruiting grounds/ allies(such as Forgeworld Sarum) of the Legions.

And the galaxy is freaking huge, it had only been two centuries. They may have been reaching the Ghoul Stars but not even the Sol Segmentum had been fully mapped. I doubt it was a quarter mapped. So when I said that I wasn't referring to defensive fleets or forces. I mean fleets expanding into the many nearby areas that were as yet unexplored.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah. Well those are Expedition Fleets! lol Yeah in those cases I could see. But if I got the right impression from Betrayal, usually those unexplored portions were unexplored due to what was usually inside of them. Like the one place Angron went into, where the Sarum forgeworld was. A compliance of the Brotherhood was considered too costly so it was just cordoned off until the Red Angel decided to break it. But you do have a point.

[Stonerhino]

 

I think it is really hard to examine Russ's mind. He may have held back,

he may have not. He is well versed after all, so he might have created

such a plan.

 

Very true. Although I think it would be very risky to hold back against a primarch as dangerous and volatile as Angron.

 

>b1 -Nobody is denying that Russ was beaten 1 on 1 fair and square

 

 

There are people saying Russ lets Angron beat him to make a point. There are also people saying Russ is not fighting to kill whereas Angron is.

 

I have two counterpoints to make...

 

if Angron had been hell-bent on killing Russ, he wouldn't have stopped to let Russ speak. One of the following scenarios (not in the book) would've likely happened:

1. Angron tries to finish Russ, but is gunned down by the surrounding SW before he can do it

2. Angron finishes Russ and is gunned down down shortly thereafter by the surrounding SW

3. Angron finishes Russ, carves his way through some of the surrounding SW but is eventually worn down and killed by massed fire.

 

My second point is that Russ could've made his point just as convincingly by beating Angron (without killing him) and then pointing out that none of the World Eaters are trying to help their primarch in his time of greatest peril.

 

To your first point Angron grabbed an axe and only stoppped when Russ stopped fighting.  As to say that if Russ was still trying to defend himself, Angron would have burried that axe in him.  I believe the quote is "Offering no more fight".  If the tables where flipped.  Do you really believe that Angron would have ever stopped the fighting if he was losing.

 

To your second point look at my responce to your first point.  Russ wins = Angron dead.  You can't prove a point to a dead man.

 

The leason is a slap in the face of everything Angron believes.  "Win enough fights and you win the war".  But the Wolves could have won the war even as Angron won the fight.  If Russ won then he would have backed up what Angron already believed.  There would be no leason just "Look, Russ and the Space Wolves are better then you".  Pointless even if Angron lived somehow.

 

Russ, being a superhuman hyperintellegent being would have understood that.  So he would have needed to go into that fight with the expectation of losing.  Fighting hard enough to stay a live but realistically he could never win that fight and have any chance of showing Angron he is wrong for what he is doing to his legion.

 

Russ engaging Angron in such a way plays very well into the SW's often retarded "Bravado".  Risking his own life to teach his brother a leason.  When all other sane Primarchs would have just let it be untill the big E did something. 

 

In fact, before Betrayer, the only evidence for anything related to this was Corax saying Angron was the one primarch that would whomp all the others in a fight.

 

Except maybe Horus and  Sanguinius.  An oppinion which now might be based on the fact that Angron beat Russ in a 1v1 100 years in the past.  Rather then backing up Corax's oppinion you muddied the waters.  Because now there is a precident on why he would have had that oppinion.  Then in Deliverence lost you have one of the top Raven Guard captains bet that it would be Russ to kill Horus. 

 

So you have Russ included in the top tier of "Fighters" by a high level captain's statement.  Then you have Corax with potentially knowing that Angron beat Russ in the past.  Excluding Russ from those with the ability to defeat Angron.  There by tainting Corax's statement.

 

I really hope that at some later date you re-address the Night of the Wolf from a perspective other then Angron's.  And eliminate the potential for Russ to have held back.

[RapatoR]

Except maybe Horus and  Sanguinius.  An oppinion which now might be based on the fact that Angron beat Russ in a 1v1 100 years in the past.  Rather then backing up Corax's oppinion you muddied the waters.  Because now there is a precident on why he would have had that oppinion.  Then in Deliverence lost you have one of the top Raven Guard captains bet that it would be Russ to kill Horus. 

 

So you have Russ included in the top tier of "Fighters" by a high level captain's statement.  Then you have Corax with potentially knowing that Angron beat Russ in the past.  Excluding Russ from those with the ability to defeat Angron.  There by tainting Corax's statement.

 

I really hope that at some later date you re-address the Night of the Wolf from a perspective other then Angron's.  And eliminate the potential for Russ to have held back.

Dude, it was aleady said: all primarchs are equals or near-equals. Look at Johnson and Curze, one day Curze won other day it was Johnson. This might enrage some people but: It is totally possible for Vulcan to beat Angron, Alpharius to beat Russ, Corax to beat Fulgrim, it just comes down to circumstances and luck.

[DarthMarko]

 

Except maybe Horus and  Sanguinius.  An oppinion which now might be based on the fact that Angron beat Russ in a 1v1 100 years in the past.  Rather then backing up Corax's oppinion you muddied the waters.  Because now there is a precident on why he would have had that oppinion.  Then in Deliverence lost you have one of the top Raven Guard captains bet that it would be Russ to kill Horus. 

 

So you have Russ included in the top tier of "Fighters" by a high level captain's statement.  Then you have Corax with potentially knowing that Angron beat Russ in the past.  Excluding Russ from those with the ability to defeat Angron.  There by tainting Corax's statement.

 

I really hope that at some later date you re-address the Night of the Wolf from a perspective other then Angron's.  And eliminate the potential for Russ to have held back.

Dude, it was aleady said: all primarchs are equals or near-equals. Look at Johnson and Curze, one day Curze won other day it was Johnson. This might enrage some people but: It is totally possible for Vulcan to beat Angron, Alpharius to beat Russ, Corax to beat Fulgrim, it just comes down to circumstances and luck.

Nah, this is a worn out political cliche IMHO...I'mean if there is a guy who strongly believes in this salute him and I'm buying him a drink...We all have our biased perspectives which are based on BL books - some more, some less, some are fanatical and there are ofc some "rare" guys who really think all primarchs are equal - but not the  MAJORITY of chapter fandom....Ofc this is my opinion based on reading 40k forums...Which is pretty butthurt when Russ was pummeled....

 

They all should be "technically" equal but we already have top 3 "stereotype" for a long time ; Horus, Angron, Sangunius...

[b1soul]

 

To your second point look at my responce to your first point.  Russ wins = Angron dead.  You can't prove a point to a dead man.

 

 

LOL no...Angron won the duel without killing Russ. If Russ can win in similar fashion (beat Angron into a state of having to crawl), Russ's point would be driven home even more heavily. 

[A D-B]

Except maybe Horus and  Sanguinius.  An oppinion which now might be based on the fact that Angron beat Russ in a 1v1 100 years in the past.  Rather then backing up Corax's oppinion you muddied the waters. 

 

Exactly. Muddying the waters is the point. It's never as clear-cut as "X would always beat Y". Corax is allowed precedent, but there's still more than enough doubt once you see the context. Is Corax really that naive, as to base his entire perception on the Night of the Wolf? He's not a fan clutching a Codex with no other context but a stat line. He's a superhuman genius who knows the people he's talking about. I wasn't trying to prove Corax's point - as I plainly always argue to the contrary of it - I was saying why the Russ-based assumption made no sense in this context. Because it doesn't.

 

I'm not sure what good revisiting the Night of the Wolf would do, or what else it could show. You already have two primarchs, and the actions themselves, pointing out a clear lesson that Angron lost and looked silly by the standards of what they were trying to teach him. And you already have Angron considering he won the thing, too. It's about as balanced a situation as you'll ever see. You see what Russ intends. You see what Lorgar sees. You see how both Legions fight, and how both primarchs fight. You see how Angron perceives his Legion, and the fight itself. It's pretty comprehensive.

 

Don't get me wrong, making Space Wolves look good and powerful is a first-class ticket to great sales, good reviews, and the largest Marine fanbase gleefully crying your name, but they already came out of that looking pretty shiny; and as a nice side-note, they also got their otherwise spurious "Yeah, we've fought Marines before" mention from Prospero Burns and The Outcast Dead put in a more realistic light, rather than the false belief they'd attacked and beaten the Lost Legions.

[Conn Eremon]

So it was a deliberate attempt to take the Space Wolves' potential involvement (as executioners) with the erasure of one or both of the missing Legions and replace it with the Night of the Wolf?

 

Good. That needed to be done. I love the idea that they have something like that in their background, but it placed too much attention on the Missing and made them out to be far more powerful than is practical. The Night of the Wolf was, as you intended, far more realistic while not actually taking anything away from the Space Wolves.