Scars

[Peter the Hermit]

A lot of the fandom were gloating and rubbing it everyone's faces that the Wolves were supposedly made to kill other Legions right after Prospero Burns was released. Everyone, everything has its ups and downs. It is a fact of life and is a fact of decent literature. A perfect creation is perfect. But once something is perfect, it becomes..... stagnant. Unchanging. Never growing. Never becoming better. If it changes, it can only go downhill. Perfection isn't just a pinnacle of existence, it is the pinnacle of existence. Once you reach it, you might as well end yourself because you will never do anything greater. And perfect characters are also pretty boring. No one can win them all. Not unless they die before they lose.

Yeah I hear you - but I think SW fans didn't ask for that "executioners" title...They did have it by D.A. and (even in "Vulkan lives" Curze speaks about Russ as emperor executioner),and then the wolves were just made deluded which makes them super goofy...Now is this ok thing to you ? I can deal with fanboys, with haters not so much....Also very phylosopical statment...

 

Now I know about tactical victory over Angron - but fandom has it way of knowing only raaaarhgh moments...

 

Also @Scribe of Khorne  - Sanguinius beating bloodthirster was pretty lame - agree...It makes round 2 (on terra) totally irrelevant and revenge not so sweet...

[Kol Saresk]

I think the Night of the Wolf was and wasn't in response to Prospero Burns. In the wake of the executioner revelation, quite of the fandom went berzerk at how much more awesome the Space Wolves must be since they killed the Lost Legions. And of course, this had to have been when in The Outcast Dead, one of the characters said (paraphrased)"The Wolves are being unleashed again."

 

Basically, the requirements for the theory were:

 

1.) An event everyone knew about, but did not openly talk about.

 

2.) A conflict of Astartes vs. Astartes that predates Prospero.

 

3.) An event where the Wolves in particular censured another Legion.

 

Most people assumed this automatically meant the Lost Legions. But then A D-B comes along with the Night of the Wolf.

 

Now, I am not saying that the Wolves did, or did not have anything that concerned the Lost Legions. For all we know, they suffered genetic mishaps similar to the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons, but the Legions did not recover and that when found, the Unknown Primarchs went into self-imposed exile.

 

It was a way of going "How do you know that Prospero Burns and The Outcast Dead weren't talking about this?"

 

And to be honest, who cares how the Lost Legions went? How do you know they aren't the Blood Ravens and/or the Space Sharks?

[GhostMalone]

Well kabahnda or whatever his name is did break sanguinus like the fluff and I'm sure the fluff had him strike him down and banish him at Signnus.

 

Then at terra it was round 3 and that's when sanguinus rips his wings out and attempts to unleash bezerker angel!!

 

I'd like angron to join in like a march of the daemon princes. Maybe they tag team in and out or angron deviates to jaghati or dorn for a one on one

[Entei]

Well actually, from what we can tell, other than the Nails forcing them to feel rage-joy, it leaves the rest of their cognitive functions alone. It simply makes them hyper-aggressive and hardwires their pleasure centers so that is all they truly enjoy. But they can still sleep, dream, rest and have periods of peace where the Nails aren't driving them batty. Angron is different to extremes. There is enough of a difference between the physiology of his brain and that of a normal human, that the Nails are actually tearing his mind apart. He is never not hyper-aggressive except for a few, rare, fleeting moments. They don't make him feel rage, they actually cause him pain and he is just lashing out in rage. When they reach the crescendo where he is at his peak and fighting and killing and fulfilling their ultimate purpose, he actually blacks out. And when he blacks out, it is the closest he will ever come to experiencing peace, sleep and dreams. It isn't serenity as in enjoyment, it serenity in that for once in his life, he is no longer experiencing pain.

 

And to be honest, forcing Angron to become a daemon prince, was problem one of the better things anyone has done for him. Killing him might have been the best, but we'll never know. But because before daemonhood, we see him twitching and bleeding from his nose and just wanting to break everything in sight. But the portrayal of him after the ascension, Angron is truly at peace. He might still incorporate the Nails into his physical appearance, but they no longer hurt him. He is truly free of pain. He's still a mass murderer, but it was only after his ascension that he actually started to truly enjoy killing because before, it was a means to an end.

 

At least, that's what I got from it.

Yeah, well I had missed the fact that the WE legionnaires' nails didn't actually make them feel any sort of satisfaction when killing, I tried to make it clearer for myself how the nails work:

• Most WE Legionnaires can function decently, maybe not as good as a legionnaire from any other legion due to their hotheadedness but at least not like crazy murder-machines, when the nails are 'deactivated'. (It's quite unclear if they are ever truly free from the pain of the nails though, since Khârn is described at twitching from pain-tics when talking with Lotara, this might vary from legionnaire to legionnaire and moment to moment though)

   

•  When the nails are active the legionnaire feels the only way he can feel any sort of pleasure is by killing.. This feeling is however like a carrot on a stick in front of a horse, since they never actually reaches the state of pleasure(or serenity) they seek. (Described by Khârn in Betrayer)

   

• The nails seem to affect some legionnaires more than others. (Rampagers for example)

   

• Angron, when out of battle, always feels the pain from the nails, preventing him from sleeping, dreaming or being handsome happy.

   

• When Angron is killing enough peeps he enters a state of serenity(not calm), where he doesn't feel the constant pain from the nails.

   

• When Angron becomes a daemonprince he doesn't feel the pain from the nails, but he still has to kill people since he is a pawn of Khorne, while his legion becomes crazy berzerkers. But that's later.

I welcome any constructive criticism. it was a while since I read Betrayer.

[Kol Saresk]

That is actually a pretty awesome way to put it. I got the pleasure thing from the audiodrama The Butcher's Nails. In it, Lorgar is talking to Angron about the Nails and mentions what it was doing to his sons, making it so the only joy they could feel was when they were killing and it was in this conversation that Angron said that they allow him to dream. The conversation in Betrayer both mirrors and references this previous conversation when Lorgar says that Angron told him that the Nails let him(Angron) dream and Angron is like "I do not recall the events of which you are referring to".

 

I kind of relate the whole "blacking out-joy" bit to when I ride my motorcycle. If it is a nice ride, I can go until the gas tank runs dry and enjoy every second of it. But for the life of me, other than remembering I liked it, I could not tell you a dang thing that happened between Points A and B except when something in my head went "Hey, watch out for this idiot", "Stop sign", "Red light" or things like that. Obviously, whatever part of me does the autopilot is able to pay attention to turns and cars, but I guess whatever part of my brain that decides what I remember only thinks the joy is worth remembering, if not what caused it.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that when it comes to Khârn and the regular Marines, I never really saw it as blacking out, so much as that at a certain point in time, they would reach a certain state of mind and just..... go on autopilot. I guess you could call it blocking out, but to me blacking out always implied that the mind just went "derp" and the body went right with it.

[Kais Klip]

You've pretty much got it. The nails are a constant background irritant, an ache if nothing else. Some deal with it better than others. When shedding blood the nail's effect wears off and the subject has serenity of mind similar to what it was like pre-nails. Since they are now used to this background noise this lack of nail intrusion feels like bliss, bliss which is ever escaping so that the only way to maintain it is to keep slaying more and more. The fact that this state bliss becomes the sole object of most legionnaires means few things are above it, with death losing its edge since it also implies freedom from the nails. Essentially the nails punish you for not killing, rather than rewarding you for killing.

 

This is what Angron used as an excuse for implanting his legion with the Nails; they steal the warrior's attention from everything but attaining and maintaining the state of mental bliss, to the point of removing the consequence of death as a significant factor to the warrior's mind; he lives only to chase away the intrusion of the nails, be it through slaying the enemy or dying, thus making a warrior against whom one has no true defense (Angron's words).

[DarthMarko]

 

A lot of the fandom were gloating and rubbing it everyone's faces that the Wolves were supposedly made to kill other Legions right after Prospero Burns was released. Everyone, everything has its ups and downs. It is a fact of life and is a fact of decent literature. A perfect creation is perfect. But once something is perfect, it becomes..... stagnant. Unchanging. Never growing. Never becoming better. If it changes, it can only go downhill. Perfection isn't just a pinnacle of existence, it is the pinnacle of existence. Once you reach it, you might as well end yourself because you will never do anything greater. And perfect characters are also pretty boring. No one can win them all. Not unless they die before they lose.

Yeah I hear you - but I think SW fans didn't ask for that "executioners" title...They did have it by D.A. and (even in "Vulkan lives" Curze speaks about Russ as emperor executioner),and then the wolves were just made deluded which makes them super goofy...Now is this ok thing to you ? I can deal with fanboys, with haters not so much....Also very phylosopical statment...

Yeah - As a fan I felt like you have been given a extra cool gift, then some guy comes and tells you it's rubbish and throws that gift to your face saying you are deluded ....

 

And this isn't just about executioners title, it's also about sorcery/warp/RP/Fenris/SW riding a SW which raises a pole of goofynes by 10

 

Now I don't wanna degrade this thread but me and some older dudes were pretty confused about those pieces of fluff...And after decades of hobby we still are....

 

On topic - all primarchs are equal, some have wings, some have nails, some have dog dna :-( according to crazy Khârn)... but Angron is a deamon prince so beast + even more beast, bare that in mind....

[Entei]

That is actually a pretty awesome way to put it. I got the pleasure thing from the audiodrama The Butcher's Nails. In it, Lorgar is talking to Angron about the Nails and mentions what it was doing to his sons, making it so the only joy they could feel was when they were killing and it was in this conversation that Angron said that they allow him to dream. The conversation in Betrayer both mirrors and references this previous conversation when Lorgar says that Angron told him that the Nails let him(Angron) dream and Angron is like "I do not recall the events of which you are referring to".

 

I kind of relate the whole "blacking out-joy" bit to when I ride my motorcycle. If it is a nice ride, I can go until the gas tank runs dry and enjoy every second of it. But for the life of me, other than remembering I liked it, I could not tell you a dang thing that happened between Points A and B except when something in my head went "Hey, watch out for this idiot", "Stop sign", "Red light" or things like that. Obviously, whatever part of me does the autopilot is able to pay attention to turns and cars, but I guess whatever part of my brain that decides what I remember only thinks the joy is worth remembering, if not what caused it.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that when it comes to Khârn and the regular Marines, I never really saw it as blacking out, so much as that at a certain point in time, they would reach a certain state of mind and just..... go on autopilot. I guess you could call it blocking out, but to me blacking out always implied that the mind just went "derp" and the body went right with it.

People who suffer from bipolar depression are often unable to remember how it feels to be happy when they are depressed, and vice versa. It actually makes a lot of sense that he doesn't remember it.

[Entei]

You've pretty much got it. The nails are a constant background irritant, an ache if nothing else. Some deal with it better than others. When shedding blood the nail's effect wears off and the subject has serenity of mind similar to what it was like pre-nails. Since they are now used to this background noise this lack of nail intrusion feels like bliss, bliss which is ever escaping so that the only way to maintain it is to keep slaying more and more. The fact that this state bliss becomes the sole object of most legionnaires means few things are above it, with death losing its edge since it also implies freedom from the nails. Essentially the nails punish you for not killing, rather than rewarding you for killing.

 

This is what Angron used as an excuse for implanting his legion with the Nails; they steal the warrior's attention from everything but attaining and maintaining the state of mental bliss, to the point of removing the consequence of death as a significant factor to the warrior's mind; he lives only to chase away the intrusion of the nails, be it through slaying the enemy or dying, thus making a warrior against whom one has no true defense (Angron's words).

You pretty much nailed it there.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

A lot of the fandom were gloating and rubbing it everyone's faces that the Wolves were supposedly made to kill other Legions right after Prospero Burns was released. Everyone, everything has its ups and downs. It is a fact of life and is a fact of decent literature. A perfect creation is perfect. But once something is perfect, it becomes..... stagnant. Unchanging. Never growing. Never becoming better. If it changes, it can only go downhill. Perfection isn't just a pinnacle of existence, it is the pinnacle of existence. Once you reach it, you might as well end yourself because you will never do anything greater. And perfect characters are also pretty boring. No one can win them all. Not unless they die before they lose.

Yeah I hear you - but I think SW fans didn't ask for that "executioners" title...They did have it by D.A. and (even in "Vulkan lives" Curze speaks about Russ as emperor executioner),and then the wolves were just made deluded which makes them super goofy...Now is this ok thing to you ? I can deal with fanboys, with haters not so much....Also very phylosopical statment...

 

 

Are they deluded though? They have every right to think of themselves as the executioners. They were able to tell another Legion what to do and not even get a slap on the wrist. They burned Propsero to the ground, and again not even a word spoken against them. For all intents and purposes, they are currently the Emperor's Executioners, delusions of grandeur or not. I'm not saying they asked for it, but quite a few of the more....... zealous fan boys(every faction has them, believe me) among the Space Wolves fans went crazy with it. And the Night of the Wolf wasn't in order to hate on the Wolves so much as trying to bring it back into focus. Curb off the worst of the crazy. You call it hating. But the Night of the Wolf was actually the first piece of writing since Prospero Burns that fully, hundred percent, beyond a shadow of a doubt confirmed the Wolves were the Emperor's Executioners. All A D-B did was the whole "Do you think you know everything?"

 

He did something similar in the thread that was speculating if Sevatar became one of the Grey Knight's founders. A whole slew of us said no. A D-B literally posted something along the lines of "Are sure? How do you know he is or isn't?" After quite a bit of thinking, my answer is because Sevatar is the first person who ever uttered the words "Death to the False Emperor." Something like that is not something you walk away from. And even if it was, he is most likely never going to get a better chance to leave the Legion than in the confusion of the Dark Angels ambush in Prince of Crows.

 

It wasn't to hate on people, it was just to keep us from overreaching ourselves coming to conclusions and then preaching those conclusions like they were facts. And there are quite a few people here who do it all over BnC. Every now and then, I catch myself about to do it. It's why I usually try to post sources and then when it comes to opinions, I just go "I think" or "This is what I got from it" and things like that.

 

You got that apparently A D-B is a Space Wolves Hater. I got that he managed to confirm one of the biggest things that I have ever seen Space Wolves fans get excited about while at the same time reigning in the fanboys while confirming that we maywill never know just what happened with the Unknown Legions.

 

Entei, on 15 Aug 2013 - 18:07, said:

 

 

Kol_Saresk, on 15 Aug 2013 - 17:57, said:

That is actually a pretty awesome way to put it. I got the pleasure thing from the audiodrama The Butcher's Nails. In it, Lorgar is talking to Angron about the Nails and mentions what it was doing to his sons, making it so the only joy they could feel was when they were killing and it was in this conversation that Angron said that they allow him to dream. The conversation in Betrayer both mirrors and references this previous conversation when Lorgar says that Angron told him that the Nails let him(Angron) dream and Angron is like "I do not recall the events of which you are referring to".

 

I kind of relate the whole "blacking out-joy" bit to when I ride my motorcycle. If it is a nice ride, I can go until the gas tank runs dry and enjoy every second of it. But for the life of me, other than remembering I liked it, I could not tell you a dang thing that happened between Points A and B except when something in my head went "Hey, watch out for this idiot", "Stop sign", "Red light" or things like that. Obviously, whatever part of me does the autopilot is able to pay attention to turns and cars, but I guess whatever part of my brain that decides what I remember only thinks the joy is worth remembering, if not what caused it.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that when it comes to Khârn and the regular Marines, I never really saw it as blacking out, so much as that at a certain point in time, they would reach a certain state of mind and just..... go on autopilot. I guess you could call it blocking out, but to me blacking out always implied that the mind just went "derp" and the body went right with it.

People who suffer from bipolar depression are often unable to remember how it feels to be happy when they are depressed, and vice versa. It actually makes a lot of sense that he doesn't remember it.

 

Strangely enough, that actually makes a weird kind of sense.

[Peter the Hermit]

@Kol - like I  said; I' ll take a deluded fanboy over hater anyday of the week....on internet ofc :-) I know a kid who thinks he is Magnus - who am I to tell him he is not....

[High MarshalGR]

Spot on. And one more thing I wanted to add: It's a fine line, but Russ chose for his Legion to be honourable and true to their oaths. Nobody forced him. They can think of themselves as executioners because if we read some of the etymology of the word, we get:

 

 

ex·e·cute  [ek-si-kyoot]  Show IPA verb, ex·e·cut·ed,ex·e·cut·ing.

verb (used with object)

1.

to carry out; accomplish: to execute a plan or order.

2.

to perform or do: to execute a maneuver; to execute a gymnasticfeat.

3.

to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law.

4.

to murder; assassinate.

5.

to produce in accordance with a plan or design: a paintingexecuted by an unknown artist.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/execute

 

So, an executioner is many more things than what we first think when we hear the word ( I think most of us think 3,4 first). For me, SW are executioners willingly, not "lapdogs". 

 

For the burning of Prospero, as was stated in previous posts: The Emperor chose SW to prosecute TS, and Horus (WARMASTER) issued new orders, which he claimed the Emperor approved, to destroy them. Horus should have been questioned due to his rank and position. SW acted on orders justily followed since Horus was the first among equals. The question is, should Russ have contacted the Emperor himself to confirm? This is were me thinks the personal issues came into play.

[Kol Saresk]

@Kol - like I  said; I' ll take a deluded fanboy over hater anyday of the week....on internet ofc :-) I know a kid who thinks he is Magnus - who am I to tell him he is not....

But what qualifies as a hater though?

 

EDIT: I find it weird that the dictionary defines "execute" as murder and assassinate since murder is killing in cold blood and assassination isn't exactly that different. Execution is usually a matter of retribution from the law.

[Peter the Hermit]

waaa HMGR dude - " I'm blind."....

 

 

@kol - IMHO guys who use every bit of special snowflake plot armor and mock kids who believe in that.....

 

I trully pity them, those guys don't deserve to be in this hobby IMHO...

[Kol Saresk]

It's a serious question. I'm just asking how you define a hater. I don't mean to attack you or anything, it just seems that you are calling A D-B a hater, but what I define as a hater, I do not see in his writings.

[High MarshalGR]

Spot on. And one more thing I wanted to add: It's a fine line, but Russ chose for his Legion to be honourable and true to their oaths. Nobody forced him. They can think of themselves as executioners because if we read some of the etymology of the word, we get:

 

 

ex·e·cute  [ek-si-kyoot]  Show IPA verb, ex·e·cut·ed,ex·e·cut·ing.

verb (used with object)

1.

to carry out; accomplish: to execute a plan or order.

2.

to perform or do: to execute a maneuver; to execute a gymnasticfeat.

3.

to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law.

4.

to murder; assassinate.

5.

to produce in accordance with a plan or design: a paintingexecuted by an unknown artist.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/execute

 

So, an executioner is many more things than what we first think when we hear the word ( I think most of us think 3,4 first). For me, SW are executioners willingly, not "lapdogs". 

 

For the burning of Prospero, as was stated in previous posts: The Emperor chose SW to prosecute TS, and Horus (WARMASTER) issued new orders, which he claimed the Emperor approved, to destroy them. Horus should have been questioned due to his rank and position. SW acted on orders justily followed since Horus was the first among equals. The question is, should Russ have contacted the Emperor himself to confirm? This is were me thinks the personal issues came into play.

 

Sry for the whole blind thing and my double post, the webpage is shiny lol! Couldn't fit all in one post for some reason.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't think BnC likes you doing that High Marshall, lol

[Peter the Hermit]

It's a serious question. I'm just asking how you define a hater. I don't mean to attack you or anything, it just seems that you are calling A D-B a hater, but what I define as a hater, I do not see in his writings.

No dude where did I say that ??? Thing is people will use an in-universe perspective just to thrash others...

[High MarshalGR]

I don't think BnC likes you doing that High Marshall, lol

"Spot on" went to your post Kol, number 285 to be exact.

 

I too hate that web page... I'll go into hand writing mode i guess, for the etymology of the word execute:

 

1. to carry out, accomplish

2. to perform or do

3. to infict capital punisment

4. to murder;assasinate

5. to produce in accordance with a plan or design

 

Source:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/execute

 

From what I tried to write in my previous post:

 

So, an executioner is many more things than what we first think when we hear the word ( I think most of us think 3,4 first). For me, SW are executioners willingly, not "lapdogs". 

 

For the burning of Prospero, as was stated in previous posts: The Emperor chose SW to prosecute TS, and Horus (WARMASTER) issued new orders, which he claimed the Emperor approved, to destroy them. Horus should have been questioned due to his rank and position. SW acted on orders justily followed since Horus was the first among equals. The question is, should Russ have contacted the Emperor himself to confirm? This is were me thinks the personal issues came into play.

 

Sorry for the multiple post, but I seem to have done something very wrong with my copy pasting lol.

[Peter the Hermit]

 

I don't think BnC likes you doing that High Marshall, lol

"Spot on" went to your post Kol, number 285 to be exact.

 

I too hate that web page... I'll go into hand writing mode i guess, for the etymology of the word execute:

 

1. to carry out, accomplish

2. to perform or do

3. to infict capital punisment

4. to murder;assasinate

5. to produce in accordance with a plan or design

 

Source:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/execute

 

From what I tried to write in my previous post:

 

So, an executioner is many more things than what we first think when we hear the word ( I think most of us think 3,4 first). For me, SW are executioners willingly, not "lapdogs". 

 

For the burning of Prospero, as was stated in previous posts: The Emperor chose SW to prosecute TS, and Horus (WARMASTER) issued new orders, which he claimed the Emperor approved, to destroy them. Horus should have been questioned due to his rank and position. SW acted on orders justily followed since Horus was the first among equals. The question is, should Russ have contacted the Emperor himself to confirm? This is were me thinks the personal issues came into play.

 

Sorry for the multiple post, but I seem to have done something very wrong with my copy pasting lol.

Which isn't completely true

 

 

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine

that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And

yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of

you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the

Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I

know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I

was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."

 

- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ

 

 

 

[Conn Eremon]

Man, you guys with your coding in the posts have straight ruined this thread on Mobile mode. I have no idea who said what anymore, or even have a clear idea on what is said.

[Peter the Hermit]

WAT? WAT? WAT? :-)

Yeah CA we should really get back on track.....

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

It's a serious question. I'm just asking how you define a hater. I don't mean to attack you or anything, it just seems that you are calling A D-B a hater, but what I define as a hater, I do not see in his writings.

No dude where did I say that ??? Thing is people will use an in-universe perspective just to thrash others...

 

 

Okay. I kept misunderstanding you then. My apologies.

[Scribe]

The Night of the Wolf Stuff, I dont want to touch on too much. It just generates rage.

 

@Kol however: I dont think Night of the Wolf is the part about Wolves being unleashed. I think the Wolves (and others) killed off 1 of the lost legions, thats all.

[Kol Saresk]

It is a possibility.