company equipment / size

[marvmoogy]

Hi , 

 

We all know that the '100 marines in a company and 1000 in a chapter' is all lies...and a typical codex chapter will have the 100 marines, captain, apothecary, standard bearer, techmarine, librarian, champion and chaplain along as well....not including an honour guard.

 

With us DA's, we have company veterans to throw into the mix as well.

 

So, let's just assume we have 10 of these fine fellows per company...,that would make a company 117 marines.

 

If we add this to the Ravenwing, we get Sammael and a 5 man command squad.  This leaves us needing to find a tech, librarian, chaplain and another 8 veterans.  So, we can make / convert the 3 character models and take a unit of 8 Black Knights.

 

This leave us with 100 marines to field.

 

How do you think the ravenwing would do it?  Like a normal battle company (6x RAS to be the tacticals, 2x 5 speeder typhoons for the devs etc?

 

I want to figure this out to support my RW force I'm building up.  But, I keep coming back to the notion that it doesn't really matter as its the number of marines, not their equipment that matters....

 

What are your opinions?

 

Cheers

[Interrogator Stobz]

Apparently now; Vets are sucked/seconded from the other squads and may be part of the 108 total(10x10sqds+5ComdSqd+1Master+1Chaplain+1Libby).

That would mean that there are normal squads running around with less than ten men, fine in reality but less fine on paper (and in the sterile and controlled rulz world).

I've recently been looking at how to update my Battle Coy too and it looks like I may need to build a couple more Tacticals (I used two squads of Vets under the 4th Ed ruling that they replaced Tactical squads), I might just re-arm some dudes and leave it at that though because the new org could still apply to my 3rd Coy if you give less weight to the "single" sqd comment. I certainly preferred the 4th org ruling but flexibility in all things and times change

Another thing for you to consider is all the vehicle/aircraft drivers and crew but remember Techmarines are not posted to a Company, they are just seconded as required. These other bodies will quickly add to the total number within a Company let alone a Chapter.

The RW and the DW are now much less structured and proscribed than they used to be; now they are indeed totally flexible at Company level and any number of bodies and squads is acceptable. I like this way very much!!!

TL/DR: Make your RW how you like, remember we have one of the best armouries out there and they can grab a different ride or weapon each time they hit the road.

2c

stobz

[Tiger9gamer]

I think that with the way the ravenwing fight, there is a lot more bikers than normal. actually helps explaining how many bikers die in most of my games X-X

[3DJutsu]

Iirc Chaplains, apothecary's, and librarians are from their own respective companies and attached to battle companies as needed. So technically the don't count.

[Interrogator Stobz]

3D:

It depends on your interpretation of what 'counts' the OP acknowledges that the 100/1000 rule is now a nonsense and seems to want to know how to build his version of the Ravenwing. In that respect he can add as many squads of the various types allowed in the Dex as there is stated no formal limit, let alone anything approximating 100.

With respect to the Battle and Reserve companies; I'd say that although the number of Tac, Aslt and Dev squads is meant to be fixed (Vets still add a little grey area to that count), there is also a Master and his Comd Squad imbedded into the structure( with an Apothecary permanently attached to that unit), the Chappie, Libby and Apothecary although trained and ultimately ruled by their respective "-iums" are posted to a Company in an as permanent as possible position as any other member of the Company and to me they do still count toward its' total strength.

A Techmarine and his servitors, along with other personages like extra Chappies and Libbies can be attached on an ad-hoc basis as missions require but there remains a set org that includes one of each (not Techs) in all the PA Companies.

It does get even greyer when you start a "but what if..." discussion about Comd Sqds for the other Characters within the Companies org (where do those Vets come from?) and very grey once you ponder where the Comd Sqds for the extra ICs that do identify as being separate from the Companies come from.

I like to think our beloved Unforgiven have a stinking great big pool of Vets (otherwise known as Deathwing!!) that can don power armour and provide protection to PA wearing non-Company VIPs as required and the "Only go into battle in Termie armour" is a nonsense created by some prehistoric fluff writer

The total Chapter strength is where the real variance from the 1000 comes in, as you mention there are specific "companies" (not the right title) of Libbies and Chappies, also as I mentioned earlier there must be a large pool of extra transhuman bodies loafing around that drive vehicles and pilot aircraft and space vessels and control training and recruiting worlds etc. There may be as many as 1500 SM in each Codex Chapter and even more in our wonderfully expanded Unforgiven Chapters.

Everyones milage will vary on this but I put different weight on different comments/rulings to suit me, as should you and the OP.

Stobz

[Brother dean]

Well, apparently all the pilots of the chapter are from the 1st or 2nd squad of the Ravenwing.  I say all because even Thawk drivers would train in a smaller plane to start with and the codex says that the 1st and 2nd squadrons are oversized with pilots.

 

The "ten brothers" of the shrouds x3 crew is 30 men...   How many LS Vengeance are there?..   RAS probibly are 10 squads and then there are the knights.....

[BigGumbo]

I'd always assumed that the 100/1000 numbers related to grunts rather than ranking officers.

[facmanpob]

Brother dean, on 03 Jul 2013 - 05:16, said:

Well, apparently all the pilots of the chapter are from the 1st or 2nd squad of the Ravenwing. I say all because even Thawk drivers would train in a smaller plane to start with and the codex says that the 1st and 2nd squadrons are oversized with pilots.

The codex states its 2nd and 3rd squads that are oversized to provide pilots for Nephilims and Dark Talons.

[Phoebus]

I like to think our beloved Unforgiven have a stinking great big pool of Vets (otherwise known as Deathwing!!) that can don power armour and provide protection to PA wearing non-Company VIPs as required and the "Only go into battle in Termie armour" is a nonsense created by some prehistoric fluff writer

I wish that were the case as well. Personally, I think one of the most glaring absences from this Codex was the inability to invest any model with the Inner Circle rule in exchange for a certain point cost. It would have been amazing to have a mechanic that allowed you to (for example) mark the underside of a model's base prior to battle, so that the true nature of, say, a Veteran Sergeant, an Apothecary, or some other seemingly "normal" Dark Angel wouldn't be revealed until later. :)

[Master Avoghai]

IMO the 100/1000 limit has always been a reference rather than a strict limit. Just something to give an idea of what a chapter should look like. There are several exceptions to this rule :

The SW great companies

The BT organization

On the opposite, we also know the case of the salamanders who count only 7 companies due to their recruiting system...

 

The 100/1000 limit is more a reference by opposition of 1000/10000 former legion organization.

 

Concerning my 5th company, I already have something like 15 veterans. I also have the dedicated vet sgt from the tactical squad but I think they will join the generic "veterans group" of my company now we can give special weapons to the standard sgt.

With all the vets bitz I have my final count will tend to 30/35 vets model... <_<

However I doubt that I may field them all in the same game, they're more here to represent the same guys using different weapons.

And if I play them all it would be in an apocalypse game and they may represent vets from other companies..

 

For DW and RW it's much easier since the codex now states that we have an "undetermined number of TDA/bikes"

[facmanpob]

Here's my take on the minimum size of the Ravenwing......

 

Codex statements: there are 10 Darkshrouds; Over 50% of the 2nd Company strength is made up of bikers; Nephilim and Dark Talon pilots come from 2nd and 3rd squads and so are drawn from company roster; Each RAS has an attached speeder, other speeders form Support Squadrons up to 5 speeders strong; 2nd Company does not adhere to the 100 marines principle.

 

Fluff from the book Ravenwing: there are 15 Black Knights

 

Assumptions: if there are 10 Darkshrouds, lets assume there are 10 Vengeance speeders also; let's assume 5 RW Support Squadrons of 5 speeders each; lets assume 10 Nephilims and 10 Dark Talons in the air force.

 

Taking all of the above, and plugging into a spreadsheet gives the following results.....

 

15 Black Knights

20 Attack Squadrons, each with 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, 1 speeder

5 Support Squadrons, each of 5 speeders

10 Nephilims with a single pilot each

10 Dark Talons with a single pilot each

10 Darkshrouds, each with a pilot, gunner and statue operator

10 Vengeance speeders, each with pilot, gunner and DJ plasma

 

So that's 135 marines on bikes, 40 on attack bikes, 20 pilots and 150 in speeders of various types, for a total company complement of:

 

345 marines.....

 

plus attached Techmarines, Company Master, Chaplains, Apothecaries and Librarians....

[Onisuzume]

also as I mentioned earlier there must be a large pool of extra transhuman bodies loafing around that drive vehicles and pilot aircraft and space vessels and control training and recruiting worlds etc.

Vehicles are usually driven by marines from the reserve companies, afaik.

With most of the naval mancraft coming from chapter serfs.

There's also a bunch of marines too old&wounded for active duty who are still fine enough to train new recruits.

 

Also, screw the codex astartes, I got me a legio astartes.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I really struggle with the concept that Reserve Coy marines are posted to Battle Companies (that may be decades of warp travel away from their own units) just to drive Rhinos.

This brings up the "what ifs" of: Who drives the Reserve Company Rhinos when they go to battle? (and they do, and it's often by themselves) and; Who drives all the vehicles when a whole Chapter goes to battle together? (again, they do on occasion).

 

Totally agree that we follow the "Legio Astartes" model ;) but other more codex Chapters will have the problems above even more pronounced than us should there not be a large pool of extra bodies posted to a motor pool type unit(it can be a short term posting but I believe they are extra bodies).

It again is merely an indication of the GW writers simplifying a combat unit down for the game playing masses instead of concidering the logistical side of any combat unit. Hell, the combat stuff is what most of us want to consider when designing a list, not how they get fed their sliced oranges between Turns three and four :P The foot note at the bottom of the Org page in the dex is all we really get as an indication of logistics, so I guess we have to make up our own versions that suit our own vision of the Legion.

 

:D

s

[marvmoogy]

Cheers for all the repliea, guys.

 

I admit, I hadn't even considered tank drivers in my thoughts!

 

Looking at the vehicle nunbers....doesn't 10 talons and 10 nephilims seems a little sparse for a whole chapters close air and fighter support?

 

I guess im just struggling to make it all add up!

[Onisuzume]

I really struggle with the concept that Reserve Coy marines are posted to Battle Companies (that may be decades of warp travel away from their own units) just to drive Rhinos.

This brings up the "what ifs" of: Who drives the Reserve Company Rhinos when they go to battle? (and they do, and it's often by themselves) and; Who drives all the vehicles when a whole Chapter goes to battle together? (again, they do on occasion).

Sorry, I misremembered it slighly.

Ther 6th (tactical) reserve company also drives bikes while the 7th (tactical) reserve company also pilots land speeders (C:AoD).

Can't really find anything on where the drivers of the predators, vindicators, etc. come from.

Ergo, to comply with the codex, they're all piloted by Watchers in the Dark.

[facmanpob]

I just took 10 of each aircraft as a representative number. If we made it 20 of each then that takes the number of non bikers above the number of bikers in my example, so we have to increase the number of RAS up to 23 to compensate and the total complement of 2nd Coy goes up to 396.

 

Of course none of it really matters.... Except that if 1st Coy is the same strength as 2nd Coy them the overall chapter strength is not 1000, but more like 1600..... Multiply that by, say 15 to include successors, and we've got a Legion of 24,000 marines, 6,000 of whom wear terminator armour! Lol!

[Interrogator Stobz]

EDIT: I weirdly couln't see the above two posts so some of this is no longer relevant, sift and sort at your pleasure :D

 

It no longer does add up to any convenient number; just make it fit your own vision of the legion as you see fit.

 

I'd at least triple that number of aircraft too. I'd expect to see 1/2 doz Talons and over a doz Nephilms for every strike cruiser that we run, or at least in every Companies fleet that holds RW support (The Dex hints that the RW are BIG and spread everywhere now).

 

While a Marheen is an incredible asset by himself compared to a human infantry soldier, SMs seem to have an amazing lack of Air and Armour resources when you try to quantify them.

GeeDub are slowly correcting their 26years of underestimating things so feel free to 'count' heaps of tanks and aircraft in any org list you want to make up.

 

s

[jeremy1391]

Well the "undetermined number of bikes/terminator squads" leave everything very open to interpretation. I envision that each company would have 3 dark talons and 6 nephilim and two full RAS attached to them since they are the eyes of the inner circle. And it wouldn't be to hard to think that there is dedicated terminator support for each company because after all who else are going to capture/kill a fallen? If joe tactical marine was doing all the leg work the secret would get out pretty quickly. So our companies would be closer to 160 marines including rhino and razorback drivers, I'm sure non combat capable who have been injured to the point where the damage is permanent make up the vast bulk of marines who operate te unforgiven's fleet of tanks and transports.

[JeffJedi]

I like the undetermined number of Rhino drivers. There could easily be 100 Rhinos and Razorbacks in our chapter. Take the 3rd Company:

 

9-11 Rhinos and Razorbacks depending on if the Assault Squads drop the Jump packs.

 

In the old Epic game Chaplains, Librarians and Apothecaries had their own Rhinos also. Maybe that's the true Ironwing not the tanks but the Drivers themselves.

[Cactus]

guys, I'm supposed to be painting 40k tanks for the ETL. All this high-level logistics talk makes me want to do some work on my Epic chapter.

[march10k]

It's 101, 102, 106, or 107, depending on whether you think the command squad is taken above and beyond the 100.  Plus a captain and sometimes a chaplain...but libbies are not permanent members of a company. 

 

There's no real reason that the members of the command squad can't come out of the 100 in the same way that the veterans would. 

 

Anyway, with casualties, I doubt that any company would have its full complement of marines most of the time...probably more like a number in the mid-eighties to mid-nineties, I would think.

[Phoebus]

The Second Company force organization shown in Codex: Space Marines points to the Command Squad being in addition to the ten Codex squads.  The relevant Apocalypse Formation implies the same.  :)

[Surrender_Monkey]

Between stripping some old models and buying some "new" ones on ebay, I'm actually getting quite close to having a whole company, I was going to use company veterans to replace the first and/or second tactical squads, since they fill a similar (but enhanced) battlefield role.

 

The big question for me is whether the Chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine are actually part of the company, or simply attached to it. I always assumed that the Librarians and Techmarines answered first to the Chief Librarian/Master of the Forge, and are somewhat interchangeable between companies, while the Chaplain is a more integral part of the company and therefore permanently attached.

 

This would place the number at 100 plus 7 (Master, Champion, Ancient, Apothecary, two honour guard, Chaplain) and then maybe the Librarian and Techmarine, for a total of 107 or 109.

 

For the Ravenwing, a full attack squad is six bikes, one attack bike (two marines) and one land speeder (two marines), so that's still ten men, the command squad is also the usual five, so I assume the full strength ravenwing numbers the same as any other company.

 

Edit: I would assume the marines crewing the Darkshrouds/Dark Talons etc. are not part of the companies "frontline" fighters in the same way as the marines crewing rhinos and razorbacks are in other companies. The fifteen black knights would make up the command squad and replace the first attack squadron much like the company vets in other companies.

[Master Sheol]

DA are a non standard chapter that looks like a codex chapter...

Battle and reserve companies are roughly about 100 men but in reality if we consider the command squad the master and the chaplain (librarians and techmarines are not really part of the companies and are attached when needed) and the rhino/razorback drivers we have more bodies to ount and each comapny has 2/3 dreads too that even if they are always entombed in the sarcoifagus are still marines... this push the grand total of each company to about 110-120 bodies at full strenght...

Considering that the scout, RW and DW companies has no fixed size we can say that DA could have about 1200 to 1500 marines...

About the DW and RW strenght... the codex says "unknown number of squads" so any speculation is useless here, only Azrael knows how many marines are in the unforgiven legion...

I like to think that RW is about 200 men and DW is about 150 men but this is only my interpretation of the thing...

[march10k]

~shrug~  All of this is just intellectual masturbation. 

 

No two companies will be alike, since they will have different numbers of casualties at any given time.  Squads in the field will be short, due to casualties, squads at "home" will be at ten, having taken on new members from the reserve companies, and the reserve companies will vary dramatically, depending on the availability of geneseed to make new initiates, the progression of training in the 10th company, and the demand for replacements from the line companies.  I could see a reserve company having as few as 70 or as many as 130 members.  The line companies, well, perhaps there is an ideal number that they should have "on paper," but except when the whole company is withdrawn from combat at the same time and has access to replacements, they will never reach that number.