CSMs & Land Raider

[minigun762]

I'm toying with putting a 10 man CSM squad with dual meltas, VotLW and champion with combi melta and melta bomb and putting it in a Land Raider. I'd swap bolters for CCWs.

 

It's not so much a dedicated assault unit as it's a dedicated big nasty killer. Send it against opposed Raiders, Riptide, Wraithknights etc.

[Sception]

I'm skeptical, but that's just a conditioned response when it comes to the chaos landraider. Try it out (take pics!), and let us know how it goes.

[The Nephilim]

If you're gonna go that far, why not a NM squad kitted with just CCs and bolt pistols with a doom siren on the champ with whatever extra goodies you want? I5 for the win.

[Bloodcrusade]

If you're putting a unit with guns into a land raider with the game plan to drive up and kill something you'd be better off using Chosen to blast them away. While they aren't scoring(Are with Abbadon) you can fit the 5 guns into them and when you take your turn shooting at something, you're going to kill it. Alternatively to Chosen, using a squad of Havocs with 4xSpecial weapons is scoring in Big Guns scenario.

 

Nephilim gave out a good point as well being that NM squad with the Siren would be an excellent option, especially if you're getting a solid base for your list of NM squads with Blastmasters for your army's core.

 

As for tactics though I honestly would not go into HtH with a Wraith/Dread-knight or Riptide. Even though they're mediocore in HtH unless built for it, they're still Monsterous Creatures and have AP2 attacks and will usually wound you on 2's. Because of that fact I'd stand a good 12" away and light them up with some double tap love.

[Sception]

If you're gonna go that far, why not a NM squad kitted with just CCs and bolt pistols with a doom siren on the champ with whatever extra goodies you want? I5 for the win.

Probably because they said part of the point of the squad was to threaten heavy targets, and regular CSMs can do that with two meltaguns and a combi melta, where as Noise Marines with a doom siren cannot.

 

Meltahavocs or maybe even chosen or combimelt terminators might do that better, but then again they aren't scoring.

 

No, I can see why CSMs would be used here, I just remain skeptical of the points inefficiency of Chaos Land Raiders. Particularly if you're running only one and don't have further AV13-14 ground vehicles from allie slots to distract enemy anti-tank guns.

[minigun762]

Hmmm Chosen or Terminators might work better actually.

CSM squad is 185.

5 Chosen, 4MGs, CM, MB is 145

5 Terms, 4 CM, Fist is 184.

 

CSMs get me the most bodies but least firepower. They are scoring but the nature of the squad is semi suicidal anyway.

 

EDIT: Killing those big MCs would be nice but my main goal is to stop them from shooting. Then again spending 2x their points to just tie them up seems wasteful.

[berzerkermike84]

we got boned when it came down to the land raider in our codex 

[Sception]

This issue with using chosen (or havocs, or terminators) is that they aren't scoring. Yeah, you'll get more firepower for the points, but if you're going to have an infantry squad that far forward anyway, it might be nice for them to be able to stand on one of the enemy objectives after blowing up whatever it is they were shooting at or assaulting whatever enemy infantry they get delivered into.

 

Honestly, plague marines with pair melta might be good here.

[nurglez]

I prefer to think of our landraider as a jack of all trades master of none, changing its roll depending on your opponent. You can stand back and use it as a turret for a few turns, then advance and drop off a squad in relative safty. You can keep an autocannon havoc squad safe from long range flyer fire power for a few turns, or hold a nice counter charge unit. You can even infiltrate one if you really want, but lets not forget my favourite, using it as a mobile wall :D

 

I haven't been to any full on tournaments with my mono landraider list yet, but many people have avoided longrange anti tank weapons like lascannons and generally pack plasma or melta, autocannons and missile launchers are still rather popular.

 

It's also one of the few vehicles completely immune to a baledrake :D

[Beachymike123]

<p>to be fair, i also see why CSM squads would be useful. aside from dreads/hellbrutes, defilers and fiends (who will be slow anyway but have supporting fire weaponry in just about all cases i reckon) who can all lay down decent fire, who else can do this, ie go in and just smash around and be able to grab the target (i know Abby with chosen, nurgle lords with PMs, Slaanesh lords with NMs etc, but to me these are exceptions rather than rules)? with meltas they're shorter range but can still get into assault range, deal a decent amount of damage (i'd say if you can chuck in a power maul for decent CC bonuses against these pesky xenos) and at the very least tie a unit from its main strength for a turn or 2. i think its a great way of smashing a flank apart, but don't even think about moving that many points into the main firing line. </p>

<p>edit: couldn't agree with you more there nurglez. the LR will be high in points but will deliver and can receive a decent amount of firepower - its 'sort of' like a commander in your tank range, ie decent armour and 3 wounds. to me the loyalist LRs are great at what they do in exchange for other areas. the LRC can transport more bodies but substitutes firepoer, the LRR is a beast in close terrain but only has the transport capability of the original. the LR itself can carry a decent amount of bodies and be able to threaten either armour or hordes, depending on which way it casts its evil looking artificial eyes. </p>

[The Nephilim]

My bad missing the MC part of the post.

 

I personally would go with six chosen (champ kitted maybe with a fist) with 5 meltas.

[Verbal Underbelly]

The thing to consider is that the basic Land Raider is it is an assault transport. The TL las cannons are kind of secondary especially when you consider that their arcs of fire don't really cross each other at medium to close range.

 

I think the idea is that it's a relatively reliable way of delivering a unit of soldiers into enemy lines. It's strength is its great AV and 4HP. It's also a great looking model so I say go for it - it's a great idea.

[Xenith]

If you are delivering a shooty unit, surely a Rhino would suffice? You could use the 250 odd points spent on the LR on 4x lascannon havocs, which would do the 'big nasty' hunting job a tad better than the tri melta unit, I'd wager.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Yeah I suppose it's a waste of the assault vehicle rule really. A unit of terminators, plague marines or noise marines is probably the most appropriate use for this vehicle.

[Ammonius]

Just run Rhinos with shooting squads inside in the shadow of the Land Raider with assault troops inside, using the LR for cover when possible. That way the rhinos can provide fire support and also the rhinos provide extra dirge casters for the turn that the LR hits the line. I think that plasma gun squads in the Rhinos would give you the best shooting while moving.

 

Hey, does a Dirge Caster prevent Tau supporting fire?

[minigun762]

I went with the Land Raider over Rhinos to make better use of the assault nature of melta and the extra CCWs. Rhinos support Bolter squads better and Bolters mesh better with flamers or plasma.

[WarlordEXE]

I believe a while back blackblowfly posted an army on his blog that uses two land raiders. Both have squads of MoK marines with ccw/BP, while one had Khârn toting with them. The issue with a single landraider is it becomes and obvious and singular target. If you accompany it with another land raider, or more fast moving units with a decent threat level then it becomes much more useful. Target one, the other gets you (while the remnants of the other squad catches up for the coup de ta). If your expecting a single landraider to charge across the field and deposit a squad to do some damage then you're gona have a tough time. Landraiders can be useful, but they need to synergize with the rest of your army.

[Excessus]

That's over 1k points for two squads and a HQ though...and with Khârn in one of them it's kinda obvious what the target priority is...

[nurglez]

I used a landraider today, it depositied my lord and plague marine squad in combat with an enemy bike squad, then attracted lascannon and assault cannon fire from a squad of oblits (big guns never tire)while it popped a vindicator and destroyed a heldrake over 2 rounds of shooting (3 hits out of 4 shots, nice!). we had to call the game on turn 5 but it was still alive on 1 hull point :D

 

Black blow fly's list was 2 squads of khorne berzerkers in landraiders with abaddon attached to one and kharne attached to the other, it was also over 2000 points.

 

I've considered running 2 termicide to get their dedicated landraiders, and sticking cultists inside them, then using them as mobile bunkers, but the army feels just a little bit too light...

 

Also, back in 5th Crynn used a GK god hammer landraider to good effect, providing cover and blocking line of sight to his psyrifle dreads and helping to boost the charge range of his grandmaster (conga line from the guys inside). As he generally hung back for the first few turns the twin lascannons were a bonus over the crusader's shorter range weaponry (yes I'm well aware that GK landraiders were better back then due to being able to ignore stunned + shaken).

 

I like my opponent assuming I will just blindly charge my landraider forwards to get close, hanging back or driving 12 inches and still firing lascannons is rather nice, especially when you get a hit or 2 with them.

 

I use a landraider with dozer blade and dirge caster, and I generally transport my nurgle lord (terminator armour, black mace, power axe, sigil, blight grenades and votlw) and 7 plagues (combi melta, 2 melta). As my unit is not uber killy my tactics vary depending on the opponent.

[Zhukov]

I'm skeptical as well, but not necessarily because of the Land Raider part. I'm probably one of the only people seeing some value in the Land Raider (I just think it's about 20 points overcosted). Well let's explain that a little: The standard Land Raider pattern got more usefull in this edition because: Passengers disembark after driving 6", meaning you can still fire your 2 lasscannons. Melta is less prevelant, overall the Land Raider is, I feel, a bit more survivable atm. Lasscannons, especially twin-linked so you can kill a flier with it once in a while, are pretty valuable in 6th. (Quite some Av13 or big 2+ save models are being used)

 

That said, 10 CSM with 3 melta shots are hardly dedicated nasty killers. You're looking at 1 wound against a riptide pretty much. I'd just use rhinos to carry around CSM. I mean, you're taking a land raider, what about putting something inside which is worth protecting? Chosen/Havocs with specials can be nice for this or a squad of berzekers for example. Even Thousand Sons could be amusing as they can charge after rapid firing, not that I'd advice that.

[minigun762]

That said, 10 CSM with 3 melta shots are hardly dedicated nasty killers. You're looking at 1 wound against a riptide pretty much. I'd just use rhinos to carry around CSM. I mean, you're taking a land raider, what about putting something inside which is worth protecting? Chosen/Havocs with specials can be nice for this or a squad of berzekers for example. Even Thousand Sons could be amusing as they can charge after rapid firing, not that I'd advice that.

 

I agree and I'm moving away from the idea.

I was trying to fully utilize the assault nature of melta weapons but when I step back, 10 CSMs with 3 melta shots just isn't enough firepower density.

As others pointed out above, I think Chosen or Terminators would have to be used to get that firepower density (and increased assault power).

 

EDIT:

I am seeing more value in the Chaos Land Raider and going forward, I might start trying to incorporate one into my lists.

[Zhorzh]

What I found out with my very limited experience with Chaos LRs was that they are very good for blocking LOS, and having a scoring unit in a hard-as-nails tank wasn't a bad idea.

[Ammonius]

If you went with Terminators and the LR as a dedicated transport, you could infiltrate that whole block of stuff with Master of Deception, right? That would make a bold statement in deployment :)

[Prot]

In this edition I've gone with Termies in the Landraider. Either 4 + Huron for infiltrate, or just 5 Termies. The versatility never locked them on one target, they were excellent multi-taskers.

 

At the end for myself, it was the points involved. Too many units make a landraider go poof, but realistically I could never make the cost of the whole deal work out. Successful situations with the Landraider were usually exceptional... a real go big or go home kind of feel to it.

 

In hindsight if I were doing it again I would go two Landraiders with two hand to hand units in them. It takes the expense problem further but I know I've seen this work quite a bit too.

[minigun762]

In this edition I've gone with Termies in the Landraider. Either 4 + Huron for infiltrate, or just 5 Termies. The versatility never locked them on one target, they were excellent multi-taskers.

 

At the end for myself, it was the points involved. Too many units make a landraider go poof, but realistically I could never make the cost of the whole deal work out. Successful situations with the Landraider were usually exceptional... a real go big or go home kind of feel to it.

 

In hindsight if I were doing it again I would go two Landraiders with two hand to hand units in them. It takes the expense problem further but I know I've seen this work quite a bit too.

 

That may just be the better answer, but in my mind it's limiting you to building an army around those two Land Raiders instead of incorporating a Land Raider into an existing army.

Then again, you might have a more cohesive and balanced army if you build it to support those Raiders.