ww2 german iron cross guard

[tomsev]

so has any one already done it?

im looking to do a small guard detachment as allies for my grey knights, and was thinking of doing them 2nd WW nazi style... so has any one done it? and have you had negative feed back for it?

 

also what should i use to help out my knights best?

[Halestorm]

it would be very bad taste dude, but up to you.

 

Iain.

[Eddie Orlock]

I read a post on a forum once, years ago now. It might have been here. That told of a tourny report in which the author encountered some Swastika'd guard. I recall the outcome of that game being reported that he'd conceded on sight in protest at playing a blatent racist and gave him a goose egg for sportsmanship. Later the report noted his vigourous protest to the tourny organisers for even permitting the force in their event. It further noted that almost every other player responded the same save the eventual winner who thrashed the tasteless player rather than allowing him to receive the tangible prize for being best general.

 

Know that invoking those symbols outside of historical context will polarise those you meet.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I read a similar report to the one referenced by Eddie Orlock. Nazi Guard is just a bad idea, in poor taste, and is unfluffy to boot.

 

Now, Imperial Guard painted-up in WW2 German-inspired colours and camo patterns, on the other hand, is completely fair game. That is how I am painting my own force, and it gets only positive feedback.

[spafe]

Just a quick point, While its bad taste to do mordians with red arm bands (seen it on a few places), if you mean stormtroopers, or the nazi uniforms from the eastern front, then the camo scheme can be done very well, and by taking a few liberties (mainly using the iron cross rather than the swastika), it can be a very visually pleasing army that no-one will be offended by.

 

So some more details on which your going for please

 

edit: Ninja's everywhere! lol

[tomsev]

sorry for coming along as a racist, but i was thinking more along the lines of iron cross germans, their camo schemes etc, not swastika waving nut jobs, maybe i should have written it up differently... My bad... nazis not ss, german military is what i should of said...

sorry

 

so any one know how i could get some iron cross germans into my force, 

 

 

 

well i was thinking kind of like using the guard against demons like nazi did jewish people during the war... im thinking out loud so if im coming too far pls tell me...

[kdruthless]

WW2 German Soldiers are fair game as a basis for imperial guard color schemes, but I believe that any hint of a swastika and in particular any portrayal of the Waffen-SS would be very poorly received

[WarriorFish]

German yes, but as soon as you start mentioning Nazis or theming anything other than the general colour schemes and appearance you're treading on very thin ice. So it sounds like you need to scale back a bit otherwise you stand a good chance of offending people. Nico has the right sort of idea, just taking paint schemes and nothing else.

[dswanick]

***** the P.C. ****.  They're your minis, paint them as you want.  Every culture, race, ethnicity, and creed has some historical boogy-man.  And GW draws heavily from all of them in their army lines.  If you find a scheme that you like and it happens to be a historically "evil" group, so what?  If an opponent bursts into tears and refuses to play you, tough.  Tell them to put on their big-boy pants and grow a set.

 

If every Imperial Guard army had to pass the P.C. test, Codex: Imperial Guard would cease to exist -

Catachan Jungle Fighters (Rambo, evil american vietnam vet - Vietnamese should be offended)

Tallarn Desert Raiders (Arabs - Europeans and Americans should be offended)

Mordian Iron Guard & Armageddon Steel Legion (What else are they but Nazi-inspired - Jews, French, Polish, and Russians should be offended)

Valahallan Ice Warriors (communist Soviet army - Germans, baltics of all types, Russian Republic, and Americans should be offended)

Attilan Rough Riders (Mongols - all asian and european continent denizens should be offended)

Praetorian (British colonial - all african continent denizens should be offended)

If every Space Marine army had to pass the P.C. test, how many armies would be "offensive"-

Ultramarines - Greco-Roman, should every Christian feel threatened by the glorification of those who crucified thousands

Black Templars - should everyone ever persecuted by Christians be offended

Blood Angels - should Italian Roman Catholics and Transylvanians be offended by their depiction

Space Wolves - should everyone who ever suffered raids by Nordic Vikings feel threatened

Dark Angels - should every classic DA army get the evil eye because of the Native American-esque imagery

Need I go on?

[Messor]

Now that you're clearer on what you want, tomsev, I'd suggest changing the thread title to reflect that.

[tomsev]

done, so any way what should i use to best represent them on the battlefield, and best help my GKs

[Eddie Orlock]

If you find a scheme that you like and it happens to be a historically "evil" group, so what?

Aye, but most of the groups you list can have their offence mitigated by the perspective of centuries. WWII is still in living memory. Doesn't say much to excuse the Catachans, but that may come down to selecting your audience. Actually, much of this comes down to selecting your audience, BoLS has recently ran a series that suggests there may only be one group worth pandering to. Not touching the Axis evades a hot button issue.

If an opponent bursts into tears and refuses to play you, tough.

Right, so you shrink your potential pool of oponents. I'm glad wargaming is overwhelmingly popular where you live such that this isn't a risk.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

I'll make it easy on you Tomsey. If you post something up here with Swastikas or blatant white supremacist (or any overtly aggressive race group for that mattter), we'll nuke your thread. If the idea is you want German Field Grey with kettle helmets that is one thing. Goose stepping "space nazis" though we won't put up with. The mods and readers of the site don't need the problems it generates.

[tomsev]

ok right everyone seems to be taking my calling 'Ze germans' nazis a little to close to the heart... no id dont want a bunch of jew hating nutters, i want a group of men showing the same hate the germans did to them as these guys do to daemons hence why theyre going with my grey knights...

back to my op what could i best use to show this?

[tomsev]

I'll make it easy on you Tomsey. If you post something up here with Swastikas or blatant white supremacist (or any overtly aggressive race group for that mattter), we'll nuke your thread. If the idea is you want German Field Grey with kettle helmets that is one thing. Goose stepping "space nazis" though we won't put up with. The mods and readers of the site don't need the problems it generates.

 

 

i did say NO swastikas... i dont want to make a legion of SS...      

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

ok right everyone seems to be taking my calling 'Ze germans' nazis a little to close to the heart... no id dont want a bunch of jew hating nutters, i want a group of men showing the same hate the germans did to them as these guys do to daemons hence why theyre going with my grey knights...

back to my op what could i best use to show this?

 

To show your IG's hatred for daemons?

 

I don't think field grey uniforms or dot-pattern camo would really help much in that regard -- to me the German look gives more of a feel of discipline, grim resolve, and a certain military élan.

 

As for showing hatred of daemons, this would best be represented by religious-type items, maybe some Grey Knight bitz and heraldry thrown in there somehow. I'm thinking of IG as something like Bretonnian Battle Pilgrims from the Fantasy line who follow and adore the Grey Knights (the way Battle Pilgrims follow Grail Knights) and smite the GK's enemies with great zeal. I would mix-in bitz from the WFB Empire Flagellants box to give them more of that religious fanatic look. You can still give them some German-style camo.

[Squirrelloid]

Err... since many IG projects are historically inspired, I really don't understand why using the Nazi SS as a basis would be any more worthy of being ostracized then building an actual historical army of same for a ww2 miniatures game.  (Nor is it all that terribly unfluffy - the IG Comissars are basically straight out of the Nazi playbook, attaching political officers to military commands).  And some players want to play the bad guys - just because someone chooses to do an SS themed guard army doesn't make him a Nazi sympathizer...

 

I mean, we've all chosen to play a tabletop wargame where the *heroes* exterminate all 'aliens' on sight, exterminate entire planets of humans over political differences, and execute people who, through no fault of their own, were born as psykers or mutants, and even go so far as to transport said victims aboard black ships to what is effectively a concentration camp so they can be fed to the astronomicon.  We know that even the 'good' guys in 40k are monsters.  Just because it is fictional doesn't make those things not atrocities, and the worrying part is not that we gladly discuss these fictional atrocities but that we *laud the perpetrators as heroes*. 

 

Surely we can be mature enough not to ostracize someone because they wish to openly play the villains in this dystopian fantasy game and paint their army after a particularly villainous historical inspiration.  I mean, so long as they're cognizant that what the Nazis did was wrong, they've already gone farther than the average 40k player by acknowledging that their models represent villains.

 

(Now, if they actually do believe in the Nazi program, that's a wholly different thing.  Commence ostracization.  But I don't see the necessary connection between the modelling and the political).

 

Edit: FWIW, if my opponent brought a 'nazi IG' army to a game, I would take great joy in grinding nazis into the dust.  There's nothing more righteous than fighting an enemy you can pretend is true evil. 

[dswanick]

Hear, hear Squirrelloid.

[Warhead01]

Well, this spun some what out of control  I use a slight ww2 German look for my army and I think it can be done in a tasteful and stylish way.  I tried my hand at a P44 dot camo a few years ago. it is doable but make larger dots then I did and use a set of colors that are easy to ...dot. 

Clearly we needn't get back on the insignia wagon. Being Imperial guard the insignia is fairly clear. But a well polished boot and a sharp pressed uniform will make you army the envy of nearly any guard player. I have mostly Steel Legion so I am faced with the German choice as well. Until today I hadn't thought about Mordian Iron Guard models as an addition. But they could fit in as soldiers not from the front.

 

I would recommend a few test models Just to see if you really like the look on the table.

[RolandTHTG]

One way to clear up confusion is to distinguish what german military unit you are looking at.

 

The main German army during WW2 was called the Wehrmacht and is what it sounds like you are going for, and is generally a respected choice. Gray uniforms, sharply dressed models, and Iron Crosses for distinguishing marks.

 

However, asking about the Nazi army makes people think of the Waffen-SS , the group that had combat formations but also ran the Death-camps. The combat formations were also notoriously likely to commit atrocities, such as shooting prisoners and massacres of vilages, and is why people are generally vehementy against their depiction outside of WW2 based games. There is just too much bad blood going down that path.

[Beachymike123]

in the words of many net users of late: well, this has escalated quickly!

 

seriously, i see your intention. the german army was a well oiled machine in WW2, as they were in WW1, and are often associated with discipline and being in good order. my suggestion would be to use insignia like the steel cross and the eagle as these are time honoured and predate most other (and often disliked) insignia associated with that time period. would it not be a bad idea, instead of going for 20th century german military insignia, use ancient tribal symbols from the goths, visigoths, vandals etc who brought about the end of the roman empire, and use WW2 german camo schemes? this way, you can incorporate the ancient tribal elements into your standards and visual representation while maintaining the look you desire? this would be advice and my 2p on the subject. 

 

edit: couple of wordings put better. also, germany does have a rich history as opposed to that the 20th century, which would be worth looking up. would be interesting to see saxon based models (maybe use the marauder sprue as a base but with no chaos symbols and a couple of high tech gubbinz thrown in, sort of like an inverse of what as shown in codex: eye of terror?)

[d503]

Go for it, if you want to.

 

You will catch a lot of flak from people who aren't of the disposition that allows them to draw a separation between what colours you paint your toy soldiers and your political beliefs.

 

The US army butchered 4,000,000 people in Vietnam. Are Catachans offensive? The red army gang-beat its way across the entirety of Eastern Europe 1943-45. Are valhallans offensive? I've seen dozens of red-starred Valhallans over the years.

 

I've fielded an army comprised of men with flamethrowers in white pointy hats, and carrying crucified people as unit standards for 15 years. (seriously, check link n sig). Not once has anyone ever accused me of being racist, for having what is - quite frankly - a KKK themed lynchmob guard army that grew out of my necromunda gang of the same theme.

 

Paint your men as nazis if you like. It's your attitude that makes you obnoxious, not the little men you play with. If you are cheerful and polite, (and dress well) you can get away with anything.

[spafe]

Are you asking for modelling advice, or what units would be good to include, or what units in guard fit the ww2 german theme? that might help us give you better advice.

 

One link I found on dakka is very similar to yours, and lots of advice on it. If nothing else look about 3 quaters of the page down, a beautifully painted kreigsmen in german camo (dakka link: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/484744.page)

 

Iron cross markings look amazing on tanks, as they visually fit the imperial guard and the russ inparticuler.

 

This link (about a 5th of the way down) has some nice markings of a russ, called the king tiger, with free hand to match (also turned up on a quikc google search), hope these help (dakka link: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/330376.page#4531410)

[dswanick]

Well, this spun some what out of control  I use a slight ww2 German look for my army and I think it can be done in a tasteful and stylish way.  I tried my hand at a P44 dot camo a few years ago. it is doable but make larger dots then I did and use a set of colors that are easy to ...dot. 

Clearly we needn't get back on the insignia wagon. Being Imperial guard the insignia is fairly clear. But a well polished boot and a sharp pressed uniform will make you army the envy of nearly any guard player. I have mostly Steel Legion so I am faced with the German choice as well. Until today I hadn't thought about Mordian Iron Guard models as an addition. But they could fit in as soldiers not from the front.

 

I would recommend a few test models Just to see if you really like the look on the table.

I use a combination of Mordian Iron Guard in dress colors for my DIY IG army's Command Squads, and a mix of Armageddon Steel Legion and Cadian Shock Troopers in a single scheme for my combat squads.