Comprehensive competitive review/guide for CSM

[Zhukov]

Comprehensive competitive review/guide of the CSM codex

 

Hey you all. I promised some months ago that I would do some kind of review for the CSM codex as enough people said they'd be interested in reading it. Real life stuff got in the way of it, but things are finally at ease again. Now I would like you all to read this intro carefully, so you know in which light you should read this review/guide. This is important, really, mostly because it makes the review more usefull for yourself, but also because it prevents unecessary discussions. Example: “You rated that unit with 2 out of 10, this is outrageous, I play with that unit all the time and it performs super well!”. Don't be that guy, please.

 

Some things to take into consideration:
I'm not a native English speaker. I like to believe my English is pretty decent, but I might express myself a little bit wrong here and there, not to mention bad grammar. Sorry for this, I do my best.

I write this review/guide from a competitive point of view. Now the meaning of this word is pretty arbitrary, so I would like to ask from you to use common sense regarding what this means.

I wont explain what the unit does, this aint a basic guide, this is my opinion on the viability of the units in the CSM codex. This includes me not going over wargear, marks, etc.

Whenever I give values, this is in comparison to other units/abilities, along with the amount of points you for it, sometimes even cross codex. This might sound logical, but many people tend to forget this and therefore get butthurt unecessarily.

Now for the setup itself:

Good: The good things about the unit.

Bad: The bad things about the unit.

When: When to use the unit.

How: How to use the unit, in which kind of list. I hope that this part makes the whole thing a bit more than just reading my opinion. Just because a certain unit is bad, doesn't mean you can't make the best of it. I can't do this too in depth though, would take me way too much time, sorry.

Example Build: Speaks for itself.

Verdict: Number between 1 and 10 out of 10. 1 being the worst, 10 the best. Note: 1 doesn't mean the unit is unusable, no unit is. It also doesn't mean the unit can't perform well. It will most likely mean the unit does nothing what you need and/or it does something another unit does more efficient. Sometimes the unit is simply unreliable. The slot it takes up is important too. A decent unit in a highly contested FOC slot is of less value than a decent unit in a slot full of bad units.

 

Let's begin shall we?

 

Special Characters

 

Abaddon the despoiler.

Good: A beatstick with complete kit. He can hurt virtually anything really well and has a defensive profile to back it up. Being eternal warrior with excellent save values does this. Eternal warrior means he can beat up most MC's without problem without fear of getting instagibbed by S10 smash attacks. He also unlocks chosen as troops and makes your army guaranteed better against Marines, through his Trait.

Bad: He ain't the fastest fellow around, especially because deepstriking him or taking a Land Raider aren't efficient options in the CSM codex. He can very easily end up being a 275 point investment doing little more than looking scary, that's not good.

When: When you want to have Chosen as troops, want to tailor against Marines or really want a slow badass close combat beast.

How: In a list evolving around a lot of midfield firepower, where he can act as a counterassault unit.

Verdict: 3/10.

 

Huron Blackheart

 

Good: Gives you the Infiltrate Trait guaranteed. Quite a versatile kit, including ending up with potentially good psyhic powers now and then.

Bad: You pay a lot of points in the end for potentially usefull things. The trick lies in the 'potentially' part, he's incredibly random. Random is generally
bad. T4, 3 attacks.

When: When you want guaranteed infiltrate 1 unit and don't want to shell out the points for Ahriman, who does the same.

How: Any kind of list which you design in such a way that infiltrating units is a good thing, can't be more precise than that.

Verdict: 3/10.

Khârn the betrayer

Good: Really choppy and giving a unit hatred. Unlocking Khorne Berzerkers as troops. Cheap when looking at pure killing power.

Bad: Poor defensive stats and does nothing more than offering some CC power, not fast either.

When: When you love Khorne or when you love having a lot of offensive power for a budget price.

How: Usually with Berzerkers in a rhino, or on foot with cultists as a meatshield.

Verdict: 4/10

Ahriman

Good: Lot of psychic might, mostly in the from of witchfire powers, but Telepathy is potentially really strong as well. Gives Infiltrate, like Huron. Oh,
unlocks Thousand Sons as troops obviously.

Bad: Spending 230 on a character with little defensive stats is always a risky prospect. More than twice as expensive compared to regular lvl 3 Sorcerer.

When: When Gandalf is your favourite LotR character. Alternatively when you want lots of witchfire while infiltrating something.

How: See Huron.

Verdict: 5/10
 

Typhus

 

Good: Unlocks 2 units as troops, decent survivable against most things in the game, decently choppy with some extra utility.

Bad: Slow, expensive and can get instakilled by several things, including each and every MC.

When: You always dreamed of fielding zombies in 40k.

How: In a Deathguard list, with several squads of zombies, including a blob as escort.

Verdict: 4/10

 

Lucius the eternal

Good: Kills things withough high toughness and a 2+ save pretty handily. Unlocks Noise Marines as troops.

Bad: Not survivable and can't handle tough things efficiently. This is really crippling for a combat oriënated HQ, especially when looking at the rest of the
codex regarding killing regular infantry.

When: You have soft spot for him.

How: In a unit of CSM or NM's, adding Ap3 goodness to the unit.

Verdict: 2/10

Fabius bile

 

Good: Mister pimp himself. He buffs a unit of CSM considerably. He himself hurts things if they don't pass their saves.

Bad: That's a lot of points to buff a unit of CSM, as he lacks reliable offense might and defense to justify higher than 90 points or so.

When: You have an obession with canes or when you think regular CSM aren't as strong as they should be.

How: Take a large blob of CSM and walk that buffed unit (including whatever Marks/gear you decide to give them) up into midfield.

Verdict: 3/10

 

 

HQ

 

Chaos Lord
 

Good: Very customizable and can unlock 1 cult unit as troops. Adds fearless to a unit. The availability of the Brand of Skalanthrax means he can do more than just beating things up in close combat. Bike is a very nice and cheap option to add more survivability.

Bad: Little utility pretty much, you pay for what you get and no more.

When: Basicly when you want to unlock a certain cult troop,when you want a combat character on a bike and/or when you want to make a blob of cultists fearless.

How: I'd recommend putting him on a bike to lead Spawn or Bikes, or to lead a blob of cultists, in which case a bike is a (good) option.

Example build: Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Brand, Sigil, Powerfist, Blight Grenades.

Verdict: 6/10

Sorcerer

Good: Cheap acces to a lvl 3 psyker, while fulfilling the obligatory HQ slot.

Bad: Psykers are random and no acces to divination is pitty.

When: Whenever you don't have a very good reason to take a lord.

How: Put him in a unit and start casting powers when you can.

Example build: Sorerer, 2 extra mastery levels.

Verdict: 8/10

Daemon Prince

Good: Flying MC with mostly good stats. Options to make him even more choppy or to make him a psyker.

Bad: T5 and 4 wounds while costing a lot of points.

When: You miss the previous codex or want to go for lots of flying things.

How: Ally Daemons for more FMC's or go for 2 Princes along with 3 Helldrakes.

Example build: Daemon Prince, Mark of nurgle, Wings, power armour.

Verdict: 5/10

Warpsmith

Good: Messes around with oppenent their cover, has decent offensive power. Might patch up a vehicle once in a while.

Bad: Basicly he's not cheap enough to warrant taking him ever over a sorcerer, nor does he do things what makes a Chaos Lord a viable option.

When: You don't like Sorcerers or Lords.

How: Vehicle heavy list, preferably with walkers, adding combat and shooting potential to a CSM unit.

Example build: Warpsmith, Mark of Nurgle.

Verdict: 4/10

Dark Apostle

Good: Leadership 10 bubble. Makes the Boon table a little less random sometimes.

Bad: None of what he does is really needed. Adding Ld10 to cultists or CSM wont prevent them from getting swept after all. Not to mention the bubble has a very weak range.

When: Fluff reasons I'm afraid.

How: Leading a unit which wants to get stuck in combat, like a loyalist chaplain.

Example build: Dark Apostle, Mark of Nurgle.

Verdict: 1/10

 

 

 

Troops

 

 

Chaos Space Marines

 

Good: It's like a marine, with a lot of options.

Bad: No ATSKNF hurts. Most options are too expensive to be worth considering.

When: You want standard (Chaos) Marines as your core.

How: Agressive squads in rhinos and/or fire support squads with autocannon and plasma both work. Basicly: Always take 2 specials or 1 special/heavy, consider champion upgrades and VotLW. Leave the marks and banners at home.

Example build: 10 CSM, Autocannon, plasmagun.

Verdict: 5.5/10

 

Chaos Cultists

 

Good: Very cheap way to get scoring units, can be taken in large numbers to act as a meatshield for characters. This unit simply does what it is supposed to do, I like that.

Bad: True meatshield, means very little damage output and survivability. Blobs need a Lord to be made fearless, small squads need to hide or will die.

When: You need some extra scoring or you want to run a blob with a character in it.

How: Small squads you reserve and/or try to hide, large squads you generally walk up into midfield.

Example build: 30 Cultists.

Verdict: 6.5/10

 

 

Elites

 

Chosen

 

Good: Option to take up to 5 special weapons. Highly customizable.

Bad: Overcosted for what they offer, which is nothing really special or amazing in the first place. Loss of infiltrate has hurt them a lot. Kitting them out for
combat is not an option, simply too expensive for it gets you.

When: You really want a lot of special weapons, or desperately need extra heavy weapons for which you pay 100+ points each.

How: You put them in a rhino or landraider and hope to disembark and blow something up. You could also use them with an autocannon (and 1 or 2 plasmaguns) to use them as fire support, but I'd only consider this when you took Abaddon.

Example build: 5 chosen; 4 plasmaguns, rhino.

Verdict: 3/10

Possessed

Good: Fleet, 5+ invulnerable save, decently powerfull random table.

Bad: Only 2 attacks base, this should have been 3, maybe 4, or they should have been way cheaper. They simply underperform compared to other units which can do pretty much exactly the same but better. No grenades.

When: You are one of those people who will defend bad units no matter what.

How: Putting them in a rhino and driving them straight into the oppenent seems your best bet, people will have to deal with them at some point, which can be annoying with their T5 (If you took MoN) and 5+ invulnerable.

Example build: 8 Possessed, MoN, Rhino.

Verdict: 1.5/10

Chaos Terminators

Good: Cheap base cost while having a terminator statline and options (deepstrike), acces to cheap combi-weapons.

Bad: Reaper is overcosted, can get swept while not being able to sweep themselves, their most efficient role is suiciding while hoping to blow something up with combies. Needs a Lord to babysit when you go for a more expensive squad.

When: You need deepstriking specials, you want a badass bodyguard unit for your badass lord.

How: You can take them for a deepstriking role in every list. If you want to run a bigger unit, let's say 8 man with MoN, then you are adviced to taking other similar units like Obliterators and maybe even Mutilators for optimal threat saturation.

Example build: 4 Terminators; 4x combiplasma, powerfist.

Verdict: 5/10
 

Hellbrute

 

Good: Cheap basecost for an Av12 walker with powerfist and multi melta.

Bad: Can't make him really shooty, nor really choppy. Slow. Tends to shoot for 2 turns and then die, unless he's high priority, then he dies without having done anything.
When: You go for a lot armoured targets and you need a specific kind of gun.

How: You should normally use them in a mech heavy list, or at least in a list with other tough targets.

Example build: Helbrute.

Verdict: 4/10

Mutilator

Good: Option to be used as a cheap solo mini-MC kind of unit.

Bad: Sloooooooowwwwww. This is bad for unit only being able to do something in close combat. Real bad. It's like a great unclean one, but without psychic powers or an impressive statline. Imagine Mutilators had Fleet instead of Slow and without Purpose! They would go from almost unusable to very usable.

When: You happen to have 61 points left and adding another T5 2+ save target would benefit your list.

How: You deepstrike them 9/10 times and hope he ends up doing something. Preferably in a list with Obliterators and Plague Marines.

Example build: Mutilator, MoN.

Verdict: 2/10.

 

 

Cult units

These get their own special made-up section. They get 2 ratings: 1^st is as elites, 2^nd is as troops. I put the rhino in this section too.

 

Khorne Berzerkers.

Good: Ws5, good amount of attacks with S5 on the charge.

Bad: Suffers from needing to get into close combat, which can be troublesome, the more considering they die like regular marines while costing more. Changes to the rhino (not being able to assault out of them) has hurt them more than any other unit.

When: You want close combat orïentated troops.

How: You take multiple big squads in rhinos and simply rush them forwards. You could also take big blobs on foot (with a banner), but I don't like this personally.

Example build: 10 Berzerkers, meltabomb, rhino 240

Verdict: 2/10; 4.5/10

 

Thousand Sons

 

Good: 4+ invulnerable save, Ap3 bolters, Force Weapon in every squad. Tzeentch primary power is decent.

Bad: Excessive cost, slow and purposeful. You basicly are forced to pay 35 points for the Sorcerer and Veterans of the Long War for every squad. While that seems fair, combined with 23 points for a single thousand son, this makes the total package just not attractive. Psychic powers are random.

When: You love Thousand Sons and don't need any anti-tank from your troops.

How: Still torn on this. Probably small units in rhinos, along with regular used support units, just more heavy on anti-tank.

Example build: 8 Thousand Sons, meltabomb, rhino.

Verdict: 1,5/10; 3/10

Plague Marines

Good: Everything about them is good....

Bad: … but you pay for it. You are T5 with FnP, but have less bodies. You gain an extra special for small squads, but lose up on bolters and adding more members doesn't give you more specials. You gain poisoned attacks, but lose on total attacks.

When: You like playing with a low model count army and hate playing without Fearless troops. (Like me!)

How: Squads of 5 man with double special, in rhinos. Don't just footslog 5 man squads k? They blown up, trust me. If you footslog: Add a few extra members. (Between 2 and 3 I'd say)

Example build: 5 Plague Marines, 2x plasma, rhino.

Verdict: 1/10, 6/10

Noise Marines

Good: Fearless CSM with I5 and cover ignoring weapons. Oh boy that sounds good.

Bad: And it kinda is, but it doesn't come cheap and thus they suffer from the “more expensive than normal marines but die just as easily” syndrome. Also: Almost no anti-tank and no Ap2. Biggest reason I believe they see little play: Helldrake (with the baleflamer) does pretty much what Noise
Marines do, but more efficient. Oh also, before I forget: Salvo rules are terrible and I hate that GW used Noise Marines to proof that. Should have been Assault 2 at normal range, or even ¾, not halve in any case.

When: You don't run Helldrakes with baleflamers, but regret it at the same time. Also: You love the color pink, admit it, you do.

How: You run them in a list where other unit take care of Anti-air, 2+ save and high armoured targets. Think along the lines of: Obliterators, Annihilator
Preds, Helldrakes with Hades cannon.

Example build: 10 Noise Marines; 2x blastmaster. 5 Noise Marines, CCW's, Siren, meltabomb,
rhino.

Verdict: 3.5/10; 5,5/10

Rhino

 

Good: Cheap, lots of uses including: protecting infantry, moblity, giving cover, blocking LoS.

Bad: Easily taken care off and if you aren't careful this will actually hurt your armies mobility as you end up blocking your own units.

When: Whenever you want, pretty much mandatory when its the only way you can include mobility for your troops.

How: You take multiples of them. Optimal in my experience is 3 for 1500, 4 for 1750+.

Example build: Rhino.

Verdict: 7/10

 

 

Fast Attack

 

Chaos Bikers

 

Good: Cheap considering their profile combined with their mobility, lots of options including marks being usefull on them, as they have the profile to back it up. Excellent bodyguard for a bike Lord.

Bad: Competes with other excellent FA choices, no options for Anti-air hurts them in this respect. Potential morale issues, due to the way they perform on the table.

When: You want a fast, versatile, decently durable unit and have the rest of your bases covered. Also: When you want a unit for a bike Lord to sit in.

How: You use them in a list with more aggressive targets. Make sure you get your anti-air somewhere else, because taking a squad of Bikes means a heldrake less.

Example build: 5 Bikes, MoN, 2x plasma, meltabomb.

Verdict: 7/10.

Chaos Spawn

Good: Very fast, decent amount of S5 attacks on average. Durable when giving MoN, the more because there isn't really an efficient way to dealing with them, because they don't have an armour save in the first place to deny.

Bad: Can actually be tarpitted, which is ironic as they can be classified as a tarpit unit themselves. This comes forth from them having an unreliable amount of attacks after the intitial charge, while only having S5 without an Ap value. Also, competing directly with Bikes and indirectly with Helldrakes.

When: You want a fast, disruptive, throw-way kind of unit. Or you want ablabative wounds for your Chaos Lord with Brand.

How: You run them straight towards the oppenent, unless the oppenent comes at you. More: See Chaos Bikers. Note: When using him as a bodyguard for a Bike Lord, you cannot run with them while the Lord can't turboboost, which is annoying.

Example build: 5 Spawn; MoN.

Verdict: 6/10

Raptors

Good: Can deepstrike.

Bad: Almost worse in every respect compared to Chaos Bikers, making them just a very poor choice all things considered. Being able to deepstrike them doesn't offset this enough, especially because this has it's own complications.

When: You like the models or have some ingenious plan for them.

How: See chaos bikers and/or terminators.

Example build: 5 Raptors, 2x melta, meltabomb.

Verdict: 2/10

Warp Talons

Good: 5+ invulnerable save, Ap3 close combat weapons.

Bad: The rest. It's a highly specialised unit, while not being cheap enough to justify that. On top of that they can't even be considered great at what they are supposed to do. Lack of grenades and high cost does this. This unit is a result of GW overvalueing a special rule.

When: You're blinded by love.

How: You either deepstrike them or use them as a counterassault unit. Large units are not option due to their specialised nature combined with high cost.

Example build: 5 Warp Talons, MoN.

Verdict: 1.5/10.

Heldrake

Good: Hard to kill, while killing most infantry in the game very well due to the baleflamer combined with insane range and mobility. Duality: vector striking at S7. Oh btw, in case you need more anti-air: A hades drake does this surprisingly well, because the hades cannon can shoot 360 degrees as well.

Bad: Nothing really, can't expect him to also take care of 2+ saves and heavy armour, that would be a bit ridiculous now wouldn't it?

When: You don't have a very good reason not to take them.

How: You roll for reserves and start bringing on the pain. Just take out that Quad Gun manned by a Tau commander asap capiche?

Example build: Heldrake. Baleflamer.

Verdict: 10/10.

 

 

Heavy Support

 

Havocs

Good: Lots of autocannons for cheap.

Bad: Static and any kind of weaponry hurts them. Autocannons are good, but can't really touch av13/14, meaning you have to compensate for this which is easier said than done.

When: You want S7 fire support.

How: You take a squad with autocannons, deploy them properly and start shooting. They can be made cheap enough so that you don't even have to worry about the rest of the list.

Example build: 5 Havocs; 4 autocannons.

Verdict: 7/10

 

Obliterator

 

Good: Swiss army knife, decently mobile and survivable.

Bad: Fire power compared to cost ratio is low for a fire support unit. Leadership issues, making bigger squads a risky prospect. Not being able to fire the
same weapons twice in a row is annoying, really. I can tell from my own extensive experience with them that I spend many games (with the previous codex) firing the same weapon all game long. Basicly it's the same as with Plague Marines: You pay (a little bit too much) for what you get, making them not truly great.

When: Your list has several holes and Obliterators can fill these up.

How: Optimal would be taking 3 single Obliterators. This gives you great flexiblity without having to worry about losing a lot of points due to a few bad rolls. Set them up, or deepstrike them. With Obliterators it's almost Always worthwhile to get up close. Only fire support unit in the game which gets more killy the closer it gets in a curve like way.

Example build: Obliterator, MoN.

Verdict: 6/10

Defiler

Good: Another swiss army knife. Well no... more like an outdated toolbox. In any case: Battle Cannon hurts, S10 in close combat hurts. Has a host of special rules which are actually good, if you manage to not die.

Bad: 195 points for an Av12 vehicle is unacceptable, the more because he isn't thát killy. That's all there is to it. 4 special rules and a ton of wargear doesn't prevent people from straight-up killing it.

When: You roll 5+ invulnerable saves like it's a 3+ save.

How: You take them in a list with a lot of targets. Think along the lines of maulerfiends, dreads.

Example build: Defiler.

Verdict: 2/10

 

Forgefiend

 

Good: Lot of S8 shots.

Bad: Little bit too expensive, would have loved to see Av13 or BS4 on him. Range issues with ectoplasm.

When: You want lots of S8 shots!

How: This theme runs through the codex: In a list with more armour/tough targets. Make no mistake: 8 shots is nice, but doesn't make up for good anti-air, you have to cover for this still somewhere else.

Example build: Forgefiend.

Verdict: 5.5/10

Maulerfiend

Good: Extremely fast walker, almost guaranteed to get turn 2 charges. Not too expensive either. Two of these equipped with lasher tendrils even have a shot at taking down MC's, no other walker can really say that.

Bad: Av12 tends to die a bit too fast when they get close and personal. Low amount of attacks.

When: You are going for a pressure list.

How: Threat overload, go for multiple Maulerfiends combined with Spawn, Bikes, Rhinos.

Example build: Maulerfiend, lasher tendrils.

Verdict: 7/10

Chaos Land Raider

Good: It's a Land Raider and this pattern is arguably the best pattern for 6^th.

Bad: Still overcosted considering it does not have machine spirit, nor usefull options, nor a big transport capacity, nor frag grenades launchers.

When: You really want to get a certain infantry squad across the table, no matter the cost.

How: Not much to it, threat saturation actually doesn't really work with Land Raiders, because they require special weaponry to deal with in the first place. It usually comes down to: Either your oppenent kills them easily, or they don't kill them all. Or you get unlucky and a random lasscannon shot blows it up, which allows you to shed some manly tears.

Example build: Land Raider.

Verdict: 2.5/10

Chaos vindicator

Good: DEMOLISHER CANNON

Bad: Av11 on the side will always cripple the Vindicator and it got worse this edition with fliers. A vindicator also isn't really long range fire support, which kinda limits the kind of list you can put him in.

When: You want that S10 template, admit it.

How: Try to protect your sides and start shooting. Rhinos tend to work well for this.

Example build: Vindicator, dozer blade.

Verdict: 4.5/10

Chaos Predator.

Good: Good front armour combined with long range. Lasscannons are valuable and this is the most efficient way you can get multiples of them, looking at cost versus output. They can even attempt to kill fliers when there aren't good targets left on the table. Low chance of hitting, but decent odds of seriously hurting one when you do hit.

Bad: Can have issues with line of sight when you try to protect his weak side armour.

When: You want lasscannons on a vehicle with an armour value.

How: Usually take 2 and put 1 on each side of your army, many times even in a corner. When you take rhinos be carefull to not block the LoS of your preds.

Example build: Predator, twin-linked lascannon, lascannons.

Verdict: 7.5/10

 

 

Final words:

I'm open to any kind of comments.
I'm open to editing.

I'm open to this thing getting stickied if it's good enough for that.

I'm open to requests, either in this thread or in the form of PM's. You can even request me to make a list with certain units in it or whatever you want. Want to know what kind of lists I run? No problem, just ask, I don't bite.

If a couple of people found this review/guide fun to read or even helpful, then I'm satisfied, I had fun writing it.

 

Future plans of me include writing battle reports.

 

[Vesper]

The DA makes a squad Fearless, which is what he does best.

[Zhukov]

 

The DA makes a squad Fearless, which is what he does best.

Which is not much because a Lord does the same.

[Sception]

Good list. I think all of your '.5's can just be rounded down (seriously, do you think your ratings need 20 degrees of granularity?), and considering how unreliable psychic powers are, how many rolls are involved in getting useful powers and then making them work when you need them on the battlefield, I think you're overrating both Sorcerers and Ahriman by a few points (maybe 2 and 3 points, respectively). Also, I think you're under rating Huron a point or two. But honestly, number ratings are kind of pointless, and it's the 'when and how to use them' bits that are most useful, here.

 

That said, I'm not sure army reviews like this are as worthwhile as they used to be, at least not without being paired with discussion of fortifications and allies. Looking at 'every unit available to an army' doesn't even cover a fraction of every unit actually available to an army anymore, unless you're talking about nids.

[Prot]

Good for you for taking on the task Zhukov!

 

I agree with a lot, disagree with some, and find some good insight in the rest of it.

 

Heldrake for instance might be a 10 in our codex, but that's not saying a heck of a lot. I'd give it a 9 out of 10 sincerely, largely because I'd give it a 10 if it had 2 weapons. A 9 is a mighty hefty ranking.

 

I'm glad you see Havoks as a stronger unit, and as well as the Predator as most players over look it, but it adds strong AV value and target to a codex that needs to rely on Rhinos. So for me the Predator is even that much more important.

 

Oblits being that low... I don't know. They've become a staple in almost every tournament list I see making it hard to see them under an 7- 8. They aren't what they used to be for sure, but that's not really why they should be ranked lower.

 

Termies a 5? That's really hard for me. I see why you did it, but man I get so much mileage out of them. Maybe I need to write a Termie tactica? I don't know but I would give them a 7. Cheap, incredibly flexible. Toy them up, make them a real hammer unit, or keep them cheap to fill those last points in your army, and let them cannon ball a few hard targets and die... I probably have Chaos Termies in 90% of my lists. Even when I play my Deathwing army I see the value of Chaos termies still to this day.

 

Huron I like a little more than you do for sure... but the Sorc was a  bit of a surprise. Maybe my one beef with it is the way we are forced to take a rulebook vanilla power before getting the cult powers making it difficult to really soak in those cult sorc abilities without getting some real duds.

 

Thanks for writing this up. I was most interested in seeing your Troops section because it's easily the most hotly debated part of the codex. Feelings and rankings on them ranging from 'great' to 'garbage'.

[Sception]

Maybe my one beef with it is the way we are forced to take a rulebook vanilla power before getting the cult powers making it difficult to really soak in those cult sorc abilities without getting some real duds.

THis SeNtenCE MaKEs no sENSe tO ME.

Am I in bizarro land, or is it opposite day?

[Zhukov]

 

Good list. I think all of your '.5's can just be rounded down (seriously, do you think your ratings need 20 degrees of granularity?),

. But honestly, number ratings are kind of pointless, and it's the 'when and how to use them' bits that are most useful, here.

 

That said, I'm not sure army reviews like this are as worthwhile as they used to be, at least not without being paired with discussion of fortifications and allies. Looking at 'every unit available to an army' doesn't even cover a fraction of every unit actually available to an army anymore, unless you're talking about nids.

.5's are there not for the precision, but for the ability to put certain units just a bit lower or higher than others.

Number ratings are usefull in the sense that they are an easy to understand way to see how much I value a unit compared to others. I also know people find them fun to read.

 

Just because I don't talk about fortifications or allies, doesn't mean I haven't included them into my verdicts, I have.

 

 

 

 

Good for you for taking on the task Zhukov!

Thank you.

 

 

 

Heldrake for instance might be a 10 in our codex, but that's not saying a heck of a lot. I'd give it a 9 out of 10 sincerely, largely because I'd give it a 10 if it had 2 weapons. A 9 is a mighty hefty ranking.

 

 

Oblits being that low... I don't know. They've become a staple in almost every tournament list I see making it hard to see them under an 7- 8. They aren't what they used to be for sure, but that's not really why they should be ranked lower.

 

Termies a 5? That's really hard for me. I see why you did it, but man I get so much mileage out of them. Maybe I need to write a Termie tactica? I don't know but I would give them a 7. Cheap, incredibly flexible. Toy them up, make them a real hammer unit, or keep them cheap to fill those last points in your army, and let them cannon ball a few hard targets and die... I probably have Chaos Termies in 90% of my lists. Even when I play my Deathwing army I see the value of Chaos termies still to this day.

 

Huron I like a little more than you do for sure... but the Sorc was a  bit of a surprise. Maybe my one beef with it is the way we are forced to take a rulebook vanilla power before getting the cult powers making it difficult to really soak in those cult sorc abilities without getting some real duds.

I rate Helldrakes in the top 10 units of whole 40k, that justifies a 10/10 for me.

Obliterators are one of my favourite units and among my most used units in warhammer 40k actually, but no, I don't think they're that great.

Maybe it's due to the nature of your list that you rate termies much higher, could be, 5/10 is decent and the best our elite slot offers so I'm not surprised, used them quite a lot myself too.

Sorcerers are rated so high because of how cheap they are, while fulfilling an HQ choice and requiring little extra attention. (You can stick them anywhere basicly and they don't need to get into CC to do something) If you don't like having a lot of psychic powers you can even just leave them barebones, 60 points is sweet, very sweet. Basicly, something so cheap while *still* having potential, now that's good in my book.

[Eulfein]

Speaking as a new player I would like to thank you Zhukov in undertaking this rather weighty task. It offered me a veteran's viewpoint on the pro's and cons of each unit. Perhaps my opinion may vary when I start playing games more frequently but all the same thank you.

 

Iron Within, Iron Without!

[HJL]

Im not sure i agree that Dark Apostles are a 1. They are a decent utility character for certain builds. I have used mine with a few massive blobs of cultists to reasonable effect. Id say that a Dark Apostle is far more useful than Fabius for example. If Fabius is a 3, a Dark Apostle should be a 3.5 or 4. If a Dark Apostle is a 3.5 or 4 then Abaddon should be higher than that, 5 or 6. 

 

Perhaps you have just rated Fabius far too highly. He is basically Useless. I cant believe you have rated Fabius as the same as Huron and Abaddon honestly. He offers nothing at all where as the other two add army wide abilities (preferred enemy and infiltrate) Fabius makes 1 squad marginally better and no meaningful presence on the field beyond that.

[Zhukov]

 

Im not sure i agree that Dark Apostles are a 1. They are a decent utility character for certain builds. I have used mine with a few massive blobs of cultists to reasonable effect. Id say that a Dark Apostle is far more useful than Fabius for example. If Fabius is a 3, a Dark Apostle should be a 3.5 or 4. If a Dark Apostle is a 3.5 or 4 then Abaddon should be higher than that, 5 or 6. 

 

Perhaps you have just rated Fabius far too highly. He is basically Useless. I cant believe you have rated Fabius as the same as Huron and Abaddon honestly. He offers nothing at all where as the other two add army wide abilities (preferred enemy and infiltrate) Fabius makes 1 squad marginally better and no meaningful presence on the field beyond that.

Well first of all: I don't expect everybody to agree with everything, it's my opinion after all.

 

For me, the Dark Apostle does literally nothing which I think is good. Massive blobs of cultists who can still get swept is a very bad idea for competive play. And they will get swept against almost anything due to suffering a lot of casualties easily, without being able to do many wounds in return. Which turns into heavy Ld modifiers, coupled with I3... Yeah. And that goes for everything the Dark Apostle offers: Running large blob of cultists is bad, trying to make rolls on the Boon table a little less random isn't a good tactic, buffing units for assault isn't worth it for various reasons, his profile is downright bad for assault... 

 

Fabious Bile I rate with a 3 for this reason (Maybe I should have made a more detailed guide, but I feared the time it would take might not be worth the result, depends on the amount of attention this topic gets, I might improve the whole thing): Fabious + a large (15-20 man) fearless, S5 CSM squad makes for an interesting ally option. Let's say, for IG or Tau or even Necrons. The 3/10 is almost purely based on this.

 

Huron I personally find the most overrated character in the book. People overrate infiltrate too much I'm afraid. Wait, let's put it in a different way: Infiltrate is really good, so when people play with Huron and the infiltrate helps a lot they tend to believe Huron is therefore good, but they probably forget how much they paid for that. 165 points for a mediocre unit is a lot when the best thing he offers (infiltrate) is even unreliable. If it was 2 units guaranteed infiltrated? I would have rated him higher, for sure, maybe even much higher. Why? Because now I can base my whole army around the concept that I can infiltrate 2 units, instead of 1, nearly doubling his worth.

 

Psychic powers are random too I hear you saying, so this goes for the sorcerer too right? Correct, but there is a subtle but very important difference here: I'm not building my army around certain psychic powers when taking a sorcerer, whatever he gives me is a bonus, it doesn't influence the army build (not to mention I can at least opt to go for a primaris power, having a degree of control). Viewing infiltrate as a bonus is an option, but not when it costs so much, not for me.

 

Maybe that helps understanding why I rated them the way I did a bit more, I don't expect you to agree though, disagreeing is totally fine! Also: It's entirely possible I under or overrated a unit by .5 or 1.0 here and there. I think if somebody stepped into my room and asked me to rate all the units, I wouldn't give out 100% the same ratings.

[Prot]

Maybe my one beef with it is the way we are forced to take a rulebook vanilla power before getting the cult powers making it difficult to really soak in those cult sorc abilities without getting some real duds.

THis SeNtenCE MaKEs no sENSe tO ME.

Am I in bizarro land, or is it opposite day?

Sorry, I was trying to finish this up as my wife came in with some jibber jabber about what's happening in Bizzaro Land today (my inlaw's end of town if you must know).

What I was trying to say is the thing that kinda ruins the Sorcs for me is that you can only have so many of your patron powers. You can take up to half of your powers from your patron's table. I think that sucks. It actually makes Typhus my favorite psyker and the Sorc ends up with Vanilla powers (main rule book) almost all the time.

I do agree his pricing his great though. Sorry for the cryptic sentence. Speaking of the Bizzaro entity, it appears I gotta go again... to Bizzaro land.

I think this article will bring about a lot of debate just due to the 'ranking' system. Which is good. My only fear is that this turns into another 50 page 'our codex sucks' thing, and I really hope it doesn't. ;)

[Sception]

No, it's just usually the complaint I see is that you have to take any of your patron's powers at all. It's why the undivided sorc tends to be preferred over the marked version from what I've seen - people would rather have three telepathy or biomancy powers than have to take a single nurgle or slaanesh or, worst of all, tzeentch power. Hence why your statement seemed upside down to me, wanting to take more of these powers that other chaos players would rather eschew a mark altogether in order to avoid.

[Prot]

No, it's just usually the complaint I see is that you have to take any of your patron's powers at all. It's why the undivided sorc tends to be preferred over the marked version from what I've seen - people would rather have three telepathy or biomancy powers than have to take a single nurgle or slaanesh or, worst of all, tzeentch power. Hence why your statement seemed upside down to me, wanting to take more of these powers that other chaos players would rather eschew a mark altogether in order to avoid.

 

Oh, no actually I LOVE the Nurgle powers and have used them to great success. Hence why I love Typhus even more. But yea, aside from him I just play generic rulebook sorc for the cost efficiency. But man Nurgle powers have worked very well for me.

[Zhorzh]

I'm suprised that you valued Vindicator higher than the Defiler. IMO Defiler is a much much better deal. Let's start with the main weapons:

 

Battle Cannon - Large Blast 72" Str8 AP3

Demolisher Cannon - Large Blast 24" Str10 AP2

 

First off, S10 AP2 pie plate. It's overkill. Tell me - when is a S10 AP2 pie plate actually needed over the Str8 AP3 pie plate? To instant kill Biker Nobz? That's the only thing that comes to my mind. There's also better armor penetration but that's more or less irrelevant. What I'm trying to say is that the Vindicator's gun which has +2Str and -1AP works the same as the Defiler's, it's superior power makes difference only in sertain situations and yet it has 3 times lower range.

 

Speaking of range. Ouch. If your opponent has positioned himself propperly then that means you'll be wasting one turn of shooting. If you're playing with the long table edge deployment then that's at least one turn of doing nothing.

 

Now, Defiler is 50-ish points more expensive, but this is what you're getting:

-Front AV12 instead of AV13...

-...but better side armor (AV12)

-Weaker gun (which is more or less irrelevant)...

-...but with a longer range!

-More guns!

-Walker special rule

-2 CC weapons

-5++

-It Will Not Die

-Daemonforge

-Daemonic Possession

-Fleet

 

In my playtests with the Vindicator (single, mind you) I've come to conclusion that due to it's low range it works only in two ways:

-when your opponent is cooperating and moving his models torward you;

-when you have no less than 3 Vindicators.

 

The low range and weak side armor just kills the Vindicator. I've almost always wished that I had a Defiler instead of the Vindicator, so that I could bombard my opponent from turn 1...

[Zhukov]

 

I'm suprised that you valued Vindicator higher than the Defiler. IMO Defiler is a much much better deal. Let's start with the main weapons:

 

Battle Cannon - Large Blast 72" Str8 AP3

Demolisher Cannon - Large Blast 24" Str10 AP2

 

First off, S10 AP2 pie plate. It's overkill. Tell me - when is a S10 AP2 pie plate actually needed over the Str8 AP3 pie plate? To instant kill Biker Nobz? That's the only thing that comes to my mind. There's also better armor penetration but that's more or less irrelevant. What I'm trying to say is that the Vindicator's gun which has +2Str and -1AP works the same as the Defiler's, it's superior power makes difference only in sertain situations and yet it has 3 times lower range.

 

Now, Defiler is 50-ish points more expensive, but this is what you're getting:

-Front AV12 instead of AV13...

-...but better side armor (AV12)

-Weaker gun (which is more or less irrelevant)...

-...but with a longer range!

-More guns!

-Walker special rule

-2 CC weapons

-5++

-It Will Not Die

-Daemonforge

-Daemonic Possession

-Fleet

I think you try too hard here to argue why a Defiler is better, because quite some things don't make much sense:

S10 ís much better than S8. Indeed for penetrating vehicles (S10 with ordnance and Ap2 hurts), but also to instakill T5 models (and thus also denying T5 models their FNP save) You also seem to overlook the fact that it's Ap2, meaning he's a lot better against anything with a 2+ save.

Calling S10 Ap2 irrelevant compared to S8 Ap3 is kinda awkward frankly.

 

70 points more (not 50'ish) is an enormous amount. I think you didn't read well enough my entry on the defiler, but I'll repeat it: It doesn't matter how many extra rules or weapons he has, he'll almost never get to use them, because Av12 isn't that survivable. You indeed end up shooting your battlecanon maybe for a couple of rounds, well I don't pay 195 points for that, sorry.

[Elrahir]

Very useful and handy article general Zhukov, but i believe some units in this codex, although at a first glance may seem crappy or point waste for the role they fill in. I think that they were ment to work with allies (see: Daemons codex) and create much stronger synergies. It's a great thing that the author of both chaos codices wanted you to think before you pick your  army's troops, hqs, fast attack etc. You don't have to go for a full cheesy 3-drake list, even if u are a powergamer or living in a very competitive area, and for that, as a chaos player, i am grateful.

 

@ Zhorzh: S10 pie plates doesnt always mean that they will get their money's worth, as high T and durable vehicles aren't always present and in some army lists, they don't show up at all. The main plus in the vindicators role is that the S10 pie plate is always intimidating, and your enemy whoever he is, he will focus them, as these machines get near him or vice versa, so the distraction essence they bring and with a little tactical positioning of rhinos at their sides, makes up for all their disadvantages.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Idk, some stuff I agree with, some things seem odd and counter to what lots of other people think, and some ratings don't make much sense (Ahriman is 4/10?). Also why do some units have more than one rating?

 

I hate the heldrake from a fluff point of view and would never take one, but yes it is good. But lots of people have success with plague marines and noise marines. Also plague marines cost a lot, but their increased point cost is completely justifiable. They are a lot more survivable compared to regular marines, are permanently fearless without any wargear or special character joining them, can take two special weapons without needing 10 members, come with an extra CC weapon that can wound anything easily, and include defensive grenades. Their T5 and FNP alone make them far more survivable than regular marines, even against a baleflamer.

[nurglez]

the cult units have 2 different ratings depending on if you have made them troops or elites.

I think this is a pretty good review, I don't agree with all of it, but its still pretty good :D

[Sception]

S10 AP2 isn't just better than S8 AP3, it's a lot better, and it's especially a lot better against some things that our faction otherwise can have quite a bit of trouble with, like anything with a 2+ save.

 

Likewise, armor 13 isn't just a better than armor 12, it's a lot better, to the point that even the daemon save, IWND, daemonic possession, and extra hull point all together don't make up for it.

 

Also, 70 points isn't just a little cheaper, it's a lot cheaper. You can get a scoring unit of cultists for that, and have points left over to buy plasma guns for a CSM squad. That's not chump change.

 

and even after all that, the vindicator still isn't very good. Short range, weak side armor, inability to target fliers, all in all you're much better off with a predator than either of them, at least imo.

 

I like the style of the defiler, I like the look of it (at least with a bit of conversion work). I play it anyway because it's cool, but it is way pricier than it should be, or that armor 12 just doesn't cut it on such a big, expensive model.

[Zhukov]

Idk, some stuff I agree with, some things seem odd and counter to what lots of other people think, and some ratings don't make much sense (Ahriman is 4/10?). Also why do some units have more than one rating?

 

But lots of people have success with plague marines and noise marines. Also plague marines cost a lot, but their increased point cost is completely justifiable.

Do you mean you find that I rate him too high or too low? Only cult units have 2 ratings, 1 is for when you take them as elite, the 2nd is when you take them as troops. (Plague Marines are utterly rubbish when taken as elites for example, because they bring nothing special apart from being superior Marines while costing more, their defensive profile is largely wasted as elites because now that they don't score they are less important to kill in the first place)

 

Read the intro again please, "but lots of people have succes with....." is not an argument. It just isn't. I had succes with a unit of 10 Wraithguard somewhere during 5th, didn't mean that unit was good, it just means that: That I had succes with it. Succes in itself doesn't make a unit good, not when you can't argue what makes the unit good and this includes comparisons and plain numbers.

 

What if I told you now that Plague Marines are my favourite unit in warhammer 40k and that 95% of my lists include them? Well, that is the truth. But just because I love them and they are good enough for me, doesn't mean I can't see that they do not hold up troop choices in several other codices. All the advantages you listed, come with a cost. Cost defines how good a unit is. 24 points per model is a lot, when their damage output at range isn't any higher than a regular marine. (which isn't spectacular either) Yes they are quite a bit better, arguably, in close combat too, but they are still far from killers and will often take too much time to even beat an average sized cheap infantry unit.

 

Tl;DR: Only a little bit more survivable than other marines point for point, while having less damage output point for point. Only reason I rate them over regular CSM is because they are fearless. CSM themselves aren't great either.

 

I can eloborate a bit more on Noise Marines too, although I honestly covered this just fine: They are expensive marines while dieing just as easy, while doing largely the same job the Heldrake does.

 

Now I can explain you more carefully what the 1st part means:

-If you take Blastmaster squads, you have your Blastmaster model along with extra wounds. Those extra wounds cost you 19 points each. But the Blastmaster is good right? Sure it is, but it isn't undercosted and thus the extra bodies make the squad more expensive than they technicly should.

-Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters: Takes time to set them up pretty much, leading more often than not to casualties before they start putting down the hurt. Those casualties you take are 19 or 22 points each, again while dieing like a regular marine. Firing with them on the move? You're firing like a regular bolter, 22 points is too expensive for that. Am I starting to sound repetitive? Good, then you start to get it.

-Siren squad? Has the problem of needing to get close in the first place, often, again, leading to expensive casualties before the unit does anything, if anyhing.

 

Taking more expensive Marines without nearly guaranteed higher damage output is a risky prospect. Grey Knights did this well because they simply got double the damage output compared to a regular bolter at long range and while having the option to buy cheap, good, heavy weapons. They were still at 20 points. Noise Marines start out at 19 and gotta pay a hefty tax to increase there firepower, while still not ending up really (if any) better than Grey Knights.

 

Does this mean I they are useless or you can't have succes with them? No not at all, like I said in my intro, that's not the point at all. The point is that there are better choices.

[Prot]

Quote

Am I starting to sound repetitive? Good, then you start to get it.

Zhukov, I think you're going to have to understand that some people are going to disagree with you. And that being said, it doesn't mean they can't or won't read what you're saying. It also means that they may also have a slightly different measuring stick than you do. It does not make them wrong though. So let's have healthy, positive debate over that......

 

 

Honestly I still find more use for a Defiler over a Vindicator. And only for one reason: Range. I think the Defiler is way over priced for sure, but I hate to admit it still does have purpose especially against opponents that want to turtle.

 

Also it's not bad in assault, and has the extra hull point. My biggest beef with it is the AV12. That really does stink so I find I put it in lists with a lot of mid-AV. Daemon is nice.. it really is something you can not count on, but yet another little bonus.

 

I've parked mine behind an Aegis line (I don't think it gets cover back there) and babysit cultists with it, and even against opponents with assaulty lists, they have to really second guess just blindly running in and assaulting me there. The flamer helps that cause as well.

 

This is based on a lot of game testing, your mileage may vary. I emphasize it really is still over priced, however with even the Forgefiend having the range it does, the Defiler surprises me a bit finding a way back into my lists on a fairly regular basis.

[minigun762]

 

I think this article will bring about a lot of debate just due to the 'ranking' system. Which is good. My only fear is that this turns into another 50 page 'our codex sucks' thing, and I really hope it doesn't.

 

I've highlighted this statement for emphasis.

This topic will be used for reference, debate and increasing our tactical discussions.

It will NOT be used for whining, complaining or the sky is falling rants.

 

We are Chaos and we're going to make (blood) lemonade from the (blood) lemons we've been gifted!

[Zhukov]

 

Quote

Am I starting to sound repetitive? Good, then you start to get it.

Zhukov, I think you're going to have to understand that some people are going to disagree with you. And that being said, it doesn't mean they can't or won't read what you're saying. It also means that they may also have a slightly different measuring stick than you do. It does not make them wrong though. So let's have healthy, positive debate over that.....

I honestly don't mean it in a passive agressive way, I'm serious: Sometimes reading something a couple of times helps understanding something. It's often not easy to change a certain way thinking. Goes for me too, I'm incredibly stubborn and I've been proven wrong many times.

[minigun762]

I need to spend more time digesting the information but one comment I can make is that for the Chaos Lord section (captured below), I would consider ranking it the same way you do the Cult Marines (with two scores), because the ability to unlock another troop choice is as much utility as I could hope for in a HQ choice as it really defines the rest of the army.

 

Chaos Lord
 

Good: Very customizable and can unlock 1 cult unit as troops. Adds fearless to a unit. The availability of the Brand of Skalanthrax means he can do more than just beating things up in close combat. Bike is a very nice and cheap option to add more survivability.

Bad: Little utility pretty much, you pay for what you get and no more.

When: Basicly when you want to unlock a certain cult troop,when you want a combat character on a bike and/or when you want to make a blob of cultists fearless.

How: I'd recommend putting him on a bike to lead Spawn or Bikes, or to lead a blob of cultists, in which case a bike is a (good) option.

Example build: Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Brand, Sigil, Powerfist, Blight Grenades.

Verdict: 6/10

[Prot]

I am glad we're on the same page.... I think good things can come from this. I too am very stubborn. Some things from the codex I just simply wrote off as unplayable.

 

I know for me personally what sent me in a different direction was the suggestion that you could only enjoy success with unit X, Y and Z. This made me challenge myself to find that diamond in the rough.

 

Perfect example: I read the codex entry for the Warpsmith and thought, in a word, 'garbage'. Being an Iron Warrior's player, I was massively disappointed. But in my "Iron Winner's" thread I forced myself to use him for about 5 back to back games and went from giving him a 2 out of 10 to probably a 6 out of 10; based on cost and efficiency.

 

Another example of me 'not getting it' would be Chaos Spawn. I know on paper they should be ok. I've heard great success stories, but personally I've only used them a few times and I stink with them... utterly stink. :)