Comprehensive competitive review/guide for CSM

[hornywingythingy]

I agree with most of the reviews, and its obviously had a lot of care and attention put into it, cheers Zhukov, I think this is a really useful article....

 

Bringing me on to my next point, mods, i vote this should be stickied to add to the csm resources...

[HJL]

Perhaps with a bit more discussion on the best way to use units it should be stickied. I dont think we currently have a thread on the best tactics and way to use chaos armies.

 

Actually we dont have a painted army thread either!

[Zhukov]

I'm willing to invest more time, if that gets this stickied. However, I'm not sure if directly expending this would be a wise choice, it kind of takes away the purpose of it. (A comprehensive guide/review, where you can quickly look up something)

 

My idea would be this:

I could add additional posts, which each deals with particular subjects, like

-A post on deployement. This would include pictures. (Either with the program Vassal or, my preffered way, taking real pictures, my army has to be fully painted for this though which it isn't currently, but will be as I'm preparing for a big tournament)

-A post on 'how to design a competitive list' and then I don't mean simply which units to take, but the idea behind it itself, from a Chaos point of view obviously.

-More in depth 'how to use this (not so good) unit'. (Which is why I don't really like expending this review, how to use a unit can get pretty extensive when done properly)

-Battle reports. (Including pictures)

 

For this I would have this review (just the 1st post) getting stickied, with the topic 'locked'. When I have a new post ready, one of the mods could unlock the topic temporary for me to post in it (I've been a mod myself, I don't think it's possible to give me mod right for just 1 topic, is it?)

 

 

What would you guys like to see me do? You can use this thread for that as well, let me know what I could help you with.

[Tenebris]

I think that we are mature enough to make a thing similar to the Tactica Imperial Guard sponsored in the era of the 5th Edition by all the IG forums and communities. In short I consider the project a great thing, and the post above a good indicator that there are members of the chaos community willing to create something lasting and useful. 

 

I think that a crossover between all the disparate chaos communities and what I believe the leading one on B&C as the premier power armor community can produce tangible results. We have a new codex, our best allies have a new codex and we can expect new supplements to integrate the whole. So in the name of the chaos community I thank Zhukov for the article above and I really hope that it is the first of many.

 

I would love to see tactica guides for CSM and Deamons be it for the most widely used units as well as for those less used. Every HQ choice can be tailored for a specific gameplay in mind and we can boast that CSM and CD provide us with at least ten different armies variants, between cult ones and undivided.

 

For you Zhukov I would love to see a bit more explanation for each unit, their optimal target, their greatest weakness and I and I presume many more are willing to help you with that.

 

Still, good work. 

[Chaeron]

A nice start certainly - I disagree on a few points, I think you've been too generous at points (!) here and there, but I appreciate that this may well be personal taste.

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm willing to invest more time, if that gets this stickied. However, I'm not sure if directly expending this would be a wise choice, it kind of takes away the purpose of it. (A comprehensive guide/review, where you can quickly look up something)

 

My idea would be this:

I could add additional posts, which each deals with particular subjects, like

-A post on deployement. This would include pictures. (Either with the program Vassal or, my preffered way, taking real pictures, my army has to be fully painted for this though which it isn't currently, but will be as I'm preparing for a big tournament)

-A post on 'how to design a competitive list' and then I don't mean simply which units to take, but the idea behind it itself, from a Chaos point of view obviously.

-More in depth 'how to use this (not so good) unit'. (Which is why I don't really like expending this review, how to use a unit can get pretty extensive when done properly)

-Battle reports. (Including pictures)

 

I hope you'll be doing it soon, specially the 1st & 3rd articles you mention.

 

You've made some good points in your review, besides I'm afraid I have to disagree with your view in some units, overall is pretty solid.

[Brother Ambroz]

I agree with most of what you said Zhukov, I just can't really rate the sorceror that highly. Its far too easy to deflect psychic powers I think and I've experienced this a fair amount as well. Something that'd be helpful for alot of players here though I think would be to create a post that would explain which units would work better with which units. Help those people that don't understand tactics all that well to create a decent list. For example,

 

Lord - juggernaught, MoK, sigil, AoBF

 

Cultists - x10

 

Cultists - x10

 

Spawn - x5

 

Spawn - MoN, x5

 

Spawn - MoN, x5

 

Maulerfiend x3

 

Then why this option is optimal, why this one is suboptimal, etc.

[zyl-]

I really like what you are bringing to the table here, and I think that some battle reports etc. would really get rid of a lot of the questions people are posting... that aren't questions. If we see more on how you play, it will make a lot more sense as to why you rate as you do.

 

As for the defiler, I've never had a defiler last past turn 1. This is an unconditional truth, and I'm sure EVERYONE thinks "you'redoingitwrong".  I can assure you that no amount of gimmiky saves, cultist screens, or terrain can stop drop pods that don't scatter, missile spam, or what have you from a first turn kill of my defiler. I realize that I am probably below average on that curve, but if it were my review, 0/10 would be generous.

[Brother Ambroz]

I agree with the Defiler. For those of you adamantly claiming the defiler's usefulness, really you've probably just been lucky (either with opponents not focusing on it or with your saves). Defilers always turn out to be fire magnets, so if that's what you're going for then it's not bad. As a support unit though....

[Tenebris]

I have seen the Defiler in action, both as part of my army and in the hands of my adversary. It is a strong platform but it dies very quickly and you risk to loose those points very often. When it performs good and the shots and blasts find their mark it is usually worth the investment but again, if you get something close to it than you are done with it. I have found easy to kill enemy Defilers, with some stray lascannon shots or with a calculated deep strike of my terminators, in one game my melta bikers was all that I needed. Just close to it anf keep firing and avoid its power fists and you should drop the hull points.

 

I think that one who likes the model the daemons Soul Grinder is a way better investment and most of our armies benefit from a good assortment of daemon allies anyway. 

[Sception]

I agree with the Defiler. For those of you adamantly claiming the defiler's usefulness, really you've probably just been lucky (either with opponents not focusing on it or with your saves). Defilers always turn out to be fire magnets, so if that's what you're going for then it's not bad. As a support unit though....

Defilers cost too much and die too fast to be considered useful fire magnets, imo. For a fire magnet to be worthwhile, it needs to take more points of resources to bring it down than it costs to field it, otherwise you're shrinking the size of the rest of your force more than you're shrinking the amount of enemy firepower coming at it, if that makes any sense.

 

I love my defiler, and field it anyway, but I'm under no illusions about it, and once I've got a solid core of CSMs painted again and have the time and resources to start an allied daemon force, there's a strong chance my defilers going to be converted up to run as a soul grinder.

[Xenith]

A defiler's problem is that it is too easily replaced with a souldgrinder, or potentially the new Battlecannon terrain piece.

[Brother Ambroz]

Oh yeah Mali it's definitely too expensive to use just as a fire magnet. I like the model, especially with conversions, but unfortunately it just isn't worth 200 points. Last time I saw one was when I played against chaos and all it did was kill one of my terminators in CC before my chainfist ripped it to pieces.

[Sception]

The defiler's problem is that it costs too much for how long it lasts and how much damage it does. Even if the soul grinder and turrets didn't exist, it still would have these problems.

[Sanctimonius]

I've played a few games with my forgefiend now, and while it isn't exactly the fire magnet a defiler is it can still draw a fair bit of attention. I've literally been hiding it behind cover (not shielding it - literally hiding it) until I see a choice target near enough for him to spit on. Then he jumps out and is all aggressive, and probably wondering where the rest of my army disappeared to... Could that be the way to play the defiler? I realise the roles are a little different, but with its lack of survivability...

 

First ever game I did this, and he melted a unit of paladins. Whole unit, just gone. Beautiful.

[Brother Ambroz]

Problem with that is the ectofiend has a clearly defined role there, killing 2+ units, whereas the defiler is the same price but not nearly so specialized.

[Zhukov]

You can't really hide Defilers, you can reserve them at best. Even then there is this problem, which Forgefiends have less so:

 

Defilers don't do anything really particular. A S8 Ap3 blast isn't much different from what Obliterators can offer you. If it's really about having a High Strenght large blast (for whatever reason, instakilling T4 targets with a 3+ save or something), then even a vindicator is a better (and more well-rounded) tool for the job.

 

Forgefiends do something particular: They deliver S8 shots in the most efficient way the codex can. Doesn't make it great and I don't say you need it, but it does give it a role no other unit in the codex fulfills. (Autocannon havocs come close, but can't penetrate Av13, which actually matters a lot. Missile Havocs are less efficient comared to Forgefiends, due to the increased price no missile launchers).

[Sception]

The forgefiend isn't great, but it is better than the defiler, on having slightly more focused armament. I still think you're better off with a vindicator than an ectofiend.

 

And, honestly, the humble predator is better than the lot.

[nurglez]

I've been using a forgefiend a lot in 6th, and I like it. While shorter ranged then the lascannon predator, they are different beasts. Yes bs3 is damn annoying but on average I get 3-5 hits with my 2 hades cannons, and when people realise these are str 8 they sometimes start to sweat, depending on the target. vs tanks you are basically paying for 8 imperial guard krak missiles, which can move and fire.

Also if you compare it to a squad of havocs with 4 missiles you will end up with less hits on average, and a much higher max damage. I've hit 6-7 times, or 4 times vs flyers before (with daemonforge active occasionally). While random rolling like that is hard to predict, maximizing the possibility for it doesnt hurt :P

I use a forgefiend along with autocannon havocs as my anti air and anti light vehicle, complimenting each other nicely.

I do however agree with the rating, these guys are ever so slightly over costed in my opinion, and quite over costed in others.

I'm contemplating adding in some daemon allies in order to get up to 3 rolls on the divination table, to get prescience for the hadesfiend, but this is for a different topic because as soon as you start adding allies to the equation the guide gets messy

[derpasaurus]

Nice review, over all. I disagree with a few points, as nearly everyone has said, but to avoid being "that guy" I'll just acknowledge that you certainly have put a lot of thought into it, and weighed against varying regional metas and personal tastes I feel like it's a pretty solid comparison. Certainly more work than I would have wanted to put into a forum post. The best thing: You list situations when the unit would still be useful! Props to you, sir. So many people just dismiss certain things out of hand (there's really only one unit I do that to, lol)

Good work!