Still looking for Advice on IG

Tankenstein_PhD · August 4, 2013

So my thread on this topic got deleted in the recent unfortunate events with TB&C server. Fortunately, things are running again and I can just restart the thread!

So I'm still trying to figure out if I want to play IG and how I might want to run them if I do. I've already pretty much determined that my initial idea of running nothing but vets in my troop slots isn't good at all.

The most important news: I got up to my FLGS recently and sadly it sounds like FW lists aren't going to fly there. Also, I was told that apparently infantry blobs are the way to go with IG when it comes to troops. As I've mentioned before, I have no desire to play those.

On top of that, I've started actually looking at the point costs for running a totally mechanized list. A single platoon at minimum strength with no upgrades aside from Chimeras is 295 points. Add in that you need two of those if you're rolling IG as your primary detachment plus a CCS and you're looking at 695 points just for the bare minimum units and transports. Keep in mind none of those models even have so much as krak grenades. Start getting upgrades and you're looking at breaking 750 points just on you mandatory troops + HQ. It's all just making me wonder if it's really worth it to field some Russes, or whether I'd be better off just playing some flavor of marines and running Predator tanks or Land Raiders.

hendrik · August 4, 2013

hence why we said you don't NEED mechanised troops! ;) a bare bones platoon+CCS comes in at 180 pts.

alternatively just get a veteran squad with camo cloaks to camp on an objective, or a penal squad., which will run even cheaper

think of the mandatory HQ+1 troops choice as a tax you have to pay to get that juicy leman russ.

Personally i don't think it's a heavy tax since any marine ally will cost more!

Argun · August 4, 2013

Then again, if you're really wanting cheap mechanised troops, get veterans. they're 70 points base, can have up to 3 special weapons, and can take a chimera.

Warhead01 · August 4, 2013

Here are a few thoughts to chew over.

Yesterday I got to play orkz vs IG. I was going to run guard but My friend was and his collection is limited right now. And after our last game I had decided to table him..but it seemed unsporting. The tabling could have happened in little to no short order I have all the tools needed. He deployed his guard across his entire front.I deployed my orkz and went second. the guard passes 5 order rolls and rolled dubble ones's two or three times! we had night fight going and despite the cover and added cover saves in two turns had wiped out 1/3 rd of the orks.

But here the thing. I saw the power of the guard. it's not the little men. it's the formation. having more units with more guns. The orks would be a real terror if the used the same platoon template. and sure 30 orks looks like a lot of scary. but it's more or less a joke. the amount of more that the guard can deploy in a single troop slot alone.

The whole game would have been different if I had all the armoured transports and more big guns as well. The only thing of note was the ork kannons. 3 frag rounds. did 12 wounds. amazing and better then all the fire power the looters could have produced.

Beteween all the men in cover and all the warm bodies whose sole purpose was the take one for the team..

The only IG player to feel sorry for are the new ones. they have the "up hill battle" of collecting painting and building the list they will need or want to win.

I cannot recommend a small compact IG army.That doesn't mean it can't be done I just wouldn't know where to start.

But you have me thinking about the armoured regiment. mostly because it is going to have less models and be easier to take to a shop to play.

I am also looking for an allies DKoK and IG as well. to make a nasty gunline. I still owe a tabeling to my friend.

He has crushed me the last two games..lol so I owe him.

Tankenstein_PhD · August 4, 2013

@hendrik: Yeah, I have thought about running a bunch of vets with camo cloaks. Supposedly the trick to keeping Guardsmen alive is cover saves anyway, and the cloaks just make that even better. Do remember, though, that a primary detachment needs 2 troops minimum, not one. And what I meant about marines was looking at running some sort of marines as my primary detachment. Maybe I'd add some IG someday. I'm still not sure.

@Argun: Yes, that's something that draws me to vets over platoons, even though platoons are generally considered more useful. Vets can be had for cheaper per troop slot, leaving me more room for the tanks l like so much.

@uberwolve: I'll keep that in mind. It kinda is the underlying thought with IG: we have the worst infantry weapons in the game, so we'll just fire a ridiculous amount of them. Eventually the enemy will fail some saves and die.

hendrik · August 4, 2013

i thought we were talking about an allied force in the original topic?

anyways, in a primary detachment, just run both! a platoon to hold your line, and veterans to break through!

Warhead01 · August 5, 2013

Tank. I think the game creates some misconceptions one most of all would be that it is a S4T4 universe. it isn't it is a S3T3 universe.

space marines in every starter box makes them the excepted norm. I think thats wrong. But I have no control over it. I also have no way to "fix it". Ya our guns aren't bolters or puls rifles or ... well very good with out a hundred of them..lol

Again just food for thought.

FashaTheDog · August 5, 2013

Although Forgeworld may not fly with your group, you could mimic the Elysians. Take to the skies with Vendettas and Veterans and support with a solid platoon perhaps fortified with an Aegis Defense Line. A Company HQ with a regimental standard and Astropath to help see large turn 2 entry lends aid to your core while you can mix in perhaps Marbo for that ninja demo charge and go from there. People will wish you brought Krieg instead.

Tankenstein_PhD · August 5, 2013

@hendrik: First, yes. I originally was considering SMs as an allied force. What I meant was that I'm starting to look at maybe playing them as a primary detachment and ditching IG. Nothing is set in stone yet, though.

And I may do that, running a platoon for a base and vets to push forward. One thing I'm adamant on, though: no blobs. Yes, I know they're supposedly the way to go. Still not running them. I do like fortifications, though, so I might drop the Chimeras and focus more on building my list around the idea of an Imperial defensive line.

@uberwolve: I think the meta around my area tends to have lots of PA, but I'm not sure. I'll try to head back to my FLGS next Sat. to observe the first round of an escalation tournament they're running to see what's out there. Still, I suppose that's an interesting way to put it and I hadn't considered that before.

@FashaTheDog: Interesting idea. I still really want my tanks, but one army idea I'd actually played around with was to have a sort of "combined arms" force. Fill out all 6 troop slots with vets, then have 3 squads on the ground in Chimeras (mechanized infantry) and then fill my FA slots with vends/valks and put the remaining vets in those (air cav). More of a fluff thing, really.

Argun · August 5, 2013

if you really want to annoy your buddies, run 6 vendettas, 3 valkyries. that's 9 flyers, 6 to kill tanks, 3 to kill blobs. All hard to kill

spafe · August 5, 2013

Okay so you want a primary detachment of guard, want lots of tanks (specifically russ's). this is a little different from you previous thread from memory. How many points are we talking here?

At 1500, you can fit in a platoon, a vet squad, a ccs, and about 5 battle tanks. One way to run the platoons could be have the troops in chrimeras, but the pcs and ccs stay back with some heavy weapon squads.

A quick knock up list could be:

Stay back force

ccs, 2 plasma guns

psc, 3 nade launchers

3 auto cannons

Armoured troops

inf squad, flamer, chrimera

vet squas, 3 plasma guns, chrimera

Armour,

2 Leman russ, hull bolter, side sponson bolters

1 Demolisher, hull flamer

1 Eradicator, hull bolter, side sponson plasma cannons

1 Bane wolf, hull bolter

That gives you 4 russ, 3 chrimera and a flame tank, good forward inf, plus some objective grabbers, and some home field sitters.

Hope that helps

Tankenstein_PhD · August 5, 2013

@Argun: Heh, that would be supremely annoying. Probably only cronair would have a chance of wresting the skies from a list running that. "Our fliers will blot out the sun."

@spafe: Sorry if there was any confusion about what kind of list I'm looking to build. To whit: I want Russes. I'm willing to take some other stuff, but I'd like at least two or three in a 1500 point army. What I'm asking for advice on is mostly the troops section of my army. My issue is that I originally wanted to run an all-vets mechanized list but heard that was unfeasable. The one thing I really don't want to do is have a big infantry blob, despite the fact that I've heard they're good. As for points, I don't actually have a point total in mind right now. Since I'm starting from scratch and don't have a massive budget, I'd like to limit things pretty sharply to start with, maybe 750 points?

I guess that prompts another question: how useful are platoons if I don't want to blob and I just plan on keeping them as separate squads? Will that greatly hamper their usefulness?

Looking over the list, spafe, I'm okay with the idea of mixing objective holders in the rear with offensively oriented squads up front. I'm not so hot on HW squads, though. They seem a little too fragile and static for my tastes. I like all those tanks in there, but I do have some questions:

-do you really recommend bolter sponsons on LRBTs? In 6th they're reduced to snapshots every time the main gun fires, so it seems like they wouldn't be optimal.

-even though it's short ranged, a hull flamer seems like a bad choice for a Demolisher. Again, in 6th the rules for Ordnance would prevent the flamer from firing at all when the main cannon does, and it just seems too short ranged.

-wouldn't bolter sponsons actually work better than PCs on the Eradicator? Being of similar strength and AP and range, they seem like they'd complement the main gun quite well, other than still letting targets roll for cover.

hendrik · August 5, 2013

at 750 pts, you'll have a hard time fitting in some russes!

how about

CCS; chimera+20 pts of upgrades as you please, 125 pts

platoon:

PCS: 15 pts of upgrades 50 pts

inf sqg: 15 pts of upgrades 65 pts

inf sqd: 15 pts of upgrades 65 pts

veteran sqd: 30 pts of upgrades, chimera: 155 pts

leman russ: armement of your choice

left over points: whetever you please, perhaps a heavy weapon sqd, or a griffon tank?

as for your questions, in 6th i don't take any sponsons on ordance gun armed russes, nor do i give them lascannons. the HB is my standard hull mounted weapon.

and i only give plasma cannons to an executioner, on any other tank HB sponsons make a good addition. those HB shots can be very usefull to kill of the last members of a unit your blast has hit

Tankenstein_PhD · August 6, 2013

Hmm, how about I up it to 1,000 points to start with? That'll give more room for tanks, heh heh.

How's about this for a general outline:

CCS

Platoon 1:

PCS

Inf. squad

Platoon 2:

PCS

Inf. squad

Vendetta/Valkyrie

Leman Russ

Obviously this is really bare bones. I'm willing to play around with the equipment for the squads and the types of Russes used to get a nice "all comers" list. Since this isn't mech either I might also throw in an ADL.

The kind of list I used to think of, (all vets):

CCS

Vet squad w/camo cloaks

ADL

Leman Russ

Or my carapace vets idea:

CCS (carapace, Chimera)

Vets (carapace, Chimera)

Fill out rest w/tanks and more vets.

I suppose I should go ahead and clarify something here: what I'm going for is a balance between an effective list and the models/units I want to play. I know if I just pick the models/units I want I'll likely have an army that performs badly. But I have no interest in just power gaming. That'll just give me the same list as a bunch of other players, and what's more I'll be building, painting, and playing with models I don't really like looking at. Not fun. I'm kinda hoping to find some sort of middle ground.

Argun · August 6, 2013

I'm finding one key thing missing here: artillery.

Sure, it isn't as survivable as a Leman Russ when it comes to getting shot at, but it can do some major damage. For general anti-marine stuff, I'd suggest either Colossi, or Basilisks. The Colossi for no cover bombardments, Basilisks for anti-tank barrages. Both are AP3, so the only things getting saves tend to be terminators.

Put a blob of guys around them (spaced 2" apart to maximise a no-deepstriking zone) as bubble wrap. Then, use everyone else as more important targets for your opponent.

Adding a Master of the Ordnance to a CCS near the backfield adds an extra free (30 point) Basilisk shot.

Here's an idea for a list using that:

HQ: 85pts. total

CCS 50

+MoO 30

+Sniper Rifle 5

Elite:

Psyker Battle Squad 80 pts total

+2 psykers 20 (makes big nasty things run away once you wound them enough stock powers are awesome!)

Troops: 445pts total

Infantry Platoon 1 130pts total

PCS 30

IS 50

Infantry Platoon 2 130pts total

PCS 30

IS 50

Veterans 70 (165pts. total)

+Grenadiers 30 (carapace armor)

+3x Plasma Gun 45

+Power Sword 10

+Plasma Pistol 10

Fast Attack: 130 pts total

Vendetta 130

(Veterans go in here)

Heavy Support: 280pts total

Ordnance Battery

Colossus 140

Works out to 1000 points, gives you a potent flyer, can possibly de-upgrade the vet. sergeant and lose the psykers for a ADL w/quad autocannon if you'd prefer.

spafe · August 6, 2013

Tank, with regards to the rus armament, sorry, I worked it out quickly through battle scribe so meant the all plasma russ, not the eradicator. the side sponson thing I find is more a hold over for me of habit as I have 3 of those russ built from several editions ago, and flamer on the demo is equally because I was defaulting to my demolisher load outs and thats the only one I had that didnt have sponsons. The load outs and turrets are just an idea though, it was mainly to show you how many russ chassis you could fit in easily.

HWT I know you said you don't like em, but they will give purpose to your orders, give you back field units (which you kinda lose if you chrimera everything), and also give you a nice weight of fire. Autos are good as they can open transports well, meaning your not then wasting russ's shooting tin cans. You could swap them for units with heavy weps if you want, or trade both for another unit in chrimera, but overall I think that reduces the firpower you have in your army.

Having everything mech is a nice idea, but in my experience you only need a few key units mech'd, and if you mech too many units it becomes too expensive and you cannot field enough of an army.

Working off your 1000 point list, giving fairly minimal upgrades (2 plasma, 2 melta, 2 auto cannon, 4 flamers, 1 grenade launcher spread among the inf), and missing the adl you can fit 2 standard russ and a demolisher in alongside the vendetta. That is a hell of a armoured punch for a 1000. obvs you could play around with weapons, but I think that gives you a nice mix of inf (jsut be ready to lose some), and a lot of armour

Tankenstein_PhD · August 6, 2013

@Argun: Are you sure you can list point values that explicitly? I thought that wasn't allowed.

And the thing is, when I say I like tanks I mean frontline, in-the-enemy's-face tanks like the Russ. I really don't have much interest in artillery. I also don't like psykers for the same reason I don't like plasma: too much potential to have my own models kill themselves (Besides, I don't trust psykers. Way too involved with the forces of the Warp, if you ask me...). Why the sniper rifle in the CCS? I've heard that snipers aren't all that useful for IG. Have you found otherwise?

@spafe: Understood. It's not a problem.

As for the HWTs, I think I'll stick'em in with the squads if I have'em at all. Thing is, HWTs are usually given ACs, and I think I'll likely be running at least one Exterminator variant since it seems to be one of the most "solid" Russ variants for the cost. Should I equip my HWTs with something else, since I might be going overboard on the ACs by that point? Or should I run some other kind of Russ, like an Executioner?

In the inf. squads I think I'll also be avoiding plasma as an upgrade. Too expensive for such fragile troops to be using, and too prone to dying from Gets Hot!

librisrouge · August 6, 2013

I often go full mechanized with no Infantry Platoons to speak of an rarely, if ever, regret it. Six squads of veterans with Chimeras (plus enough poihnts for three specials) comes in at 930 points and is often the foundation for any of my lists at 1850 or 2k. At lower points I use less squads and sometimes I use one less so that I can give a chimera to a Company Command Squad (as I only own six Chimeras.) Admittedly, the Veterans become something of a one and done unit but the Chimera is far more than just a transport since it packs two heavy weapons. Plus, even one round of shooting with three special weapons can change the course of a game.

When I do field infantry platoons it is to cut down on points. Infantry squads are kept cheap (no more than 65 pts.) and are meant to unload onto objectives on turn 5 or so and not do much else. PCSs are given four flamers, no exceptions.

Spend the rest of your points on tanks. At 2.5k I always have all six (dbl. FOC) heavy support filled with tanks and artillery (manticore, yay!) Throw in a Vendetta or two for dog fighting.

Tankenstein_PhD · August 7, 2013

Huh, that's interesting. So if I might ask, how do you compensate for the low number of troops (for IG, anyways)? Is it relying on the firepower of the tanks to pulverize enemy units before they can mess up the infantry too bad?

And as a general question, if I do run Chimeras, what upgrades are good on them (if any)?

hendrik · August 7, 2013

i tend to run mine with a hull mounted flamer and multilaser. two of mine (i've got 6 i believe) are armed with autocannonturrets per IA

Tankenstein_PhD · August 7, 2013

If I'm running them I think I'll do the same, except for replacing the hull weapon with a heavy bolter. It gets more range, can fire snapshots, and doesn't cost any extra.

And turret ACs on Chimeras...oh man. I really should do a wishlist for the 6th ed IG codex.

On a somewhat unrelated note, does anyone know where I can get the WD Sisters codex? They might make some neat allies for IG.

WarriorFish · August 7, 2013

Hull heavy flamers are free, which is what makes them viable. Your opponent will almost certainly want to get in close to your Guard, but an array of heavy flamers on your vehicles is a good deterrent, or should you need to fire without risking friendly scatter

Good luck getting the Sisters WD "codex" though, short of forking out obscene amounts of money for greedy eBayers that is. Borrow someone's if you can, otherwise you're stuck As if having a WD codex could be any more of a joke, GW did not think this through at all as it's all but barred new SoB players from starting up. GW incompetence aside you are correct, SoB make for excellent allies for any Imperial force as they can provide some focused specialisation but still retain a good model count with solid shooting and the holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melta will always be useful :D

librisrouge · August 7, 2013

All of my Chimeras are armed with Multilaser and Heavy Flamer. The Heavy Flamer only needs to fire once to get a games worth of hurt in. I never take any other upgrades, holding to the IG maxim of keeping it cheap and getting more. I have been wanting to swap two of mine for double heavy bolter for the squads that are going to hang out in the back and claim back objectives in the late game.

I compensate for low troops just like you said, by killing the enemy.

Dead men hold no objectives.

Repeat that to yourself every time you're debating adding more or less firepower to your list. Leman Russ demand the enemies attention if you're using them right. Push them into range and pummel the enemy. Take enough veteran squads that you can afford to lose 2-3 and still hold an objective for two. Don't be afraid to pop smoke on a Chimera instead of shooting if it means conserving your scoring units longer. Stick to cover and if you take serious fire go to ground.

Tanker lists are a hoot and a half and IG does not need mobs of men to be effective. Plus the look on people's faces when you deploy six Russ at 2k is priceless.

"Yea though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil for I ride in a big metal beast with a great big gun." -Saint Tankerous

librisrouge · August 7, 2013

To give some ideas, this is the list I'm thinking about taking to a tournament this Saturday (2.5k Points.)

HQ-

CCS - Powerfist, Grenade Launcher x2, and Astropath