Are you happy with your DA codex?

[ValourousHeart]

Thank you Master Avoghai,

 

I didn't actually forget the storm raven, I just didn't mention any of the marine lists at all except for CSM.

 

I just figure comparing an army to itself is kinda pointless. There is so much cross over between the SM codexes that it really comes down to play style and esthetic preference.

 

Also if an army is internally balanced it will have a solution to counter anything it could potentially put on the board.

 

But it is nice to hear that our flyers are not crap... They just don't stand on top, and I can live with that.

 

As to the "curve" you speak of... I remember 3rd edition facing a 200 pt DP that could easily deal with all 2000 pt of my Sister's or RW armies, and did so no matter how inept my opponent was.

 

So one might call it progress that CSM now have to spend 3x the points to get the same results.

 

But don't you think that 500 pts of flak missiles can deal with 500 pts of hell drakes?

 

I think that the way to fix the drake has more to do with fixing vector strike, than with anything the FAQ did. But this would probably have to wait till next edition.

[Master Avoghai]

But don't you think that 500 pts of flak missiles can deal with 500 pts of hell drakes?

Sure if only I can take 500pts of flak missiles...

 

And if only this flak missiles could take care of 2/3 of my opponents....

[HsojVvad]

I fear the loss of Greenwing. While Deathwing/Ravenwing will (seemingly) continue to be unique I have no idea if Greenwing will still be worth it.

 

I don't get this. If Greenwing is worth it now, how will it stop being worth it when a new SM codex comes out? The DA codex is not changing. What changes? How does something become good now, and not good later when nothing changes in the DA codex? 

[Diavlo]

 

I fear the loss of Greenwing. While Deathwing/Ravenwing will (seemingly) continue to be unique I have no idea if Greenwing will still be worth it.

 

I don't get this. If Greenwing is worth it now, how will it stop being worth it when a new SM codex comes out? The DA codex is not changing. What changes? How does something become good now, and not good later when nothing changes in the DA codex? 

 

It's easy. 

 

When Germans invented and started producing Pak36, 37mm gun it was the most modern and one of the best guns in the world, but when France started producing its Somua S35's in 1935, pak became almost obsolete. 

Same here, if we stay in the same spot, but everyone else is moving forward then we stay behind and we can no longer compete with others. 

 

How can greenwing "stop being worth" ? if SM points are cheaper, if they can take two heavy\special weapons with 9 members etc.

We don't know how they will create standard SM tacticals, we know for sure that they will have wider weapon selection so far. (that grav weapon) That make our tactical's lesser already.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

But don't you think that 500 pts of flak missiles can deal with 500 pts of hell drakes?

Sure if only I can take 500pts of flak missiles...

 

And if only this flak missiles could take care of 2/3 of my opponents....

So missile launchers can't deal with opponents?

 

Frag, krak and flak seem to address just about everything but av14 and 2+ armor. But is the typical tournament list nothing but av14, 2+ armor and flyers? I do not think it is.

 

It is this resistance to fielding ML that is causing our woes with flyers. And yes that means pure DW and RW list will struggle with flyers. But sprinkle in some GW and you'll be covered.

[SRSFACE]

The biggest issue with missile launchers is they don't actually counter Heldrakes. Sure, you can spend 175 points to fill a devastator squad with them, but heldrakes are AP3 and ignores cover AND are going to come into the game as a reserve unit so unless you get long board, they'll roast the whole squad on the turn they arrive. Any other army's flyers, mass rocket launchers in a dev squad is pretty nice, but it does nothing against Heldrakes.

 

I've had the most success against Heldrakes with Terminators that I don't Deathwing Assault with. Deep strike it behind a flyer and pray your twin-links will let you glance it to death. But that's always a hail-mary play at best.

[Syphid]

 

Assault Squads are one of the weakest choices in our codex, and the reason is that they never evolved as editions went on. They are mediocre in shooting and assault, die just like any other marine, they aren't scoring, and aren't all that versatile. This is because their equipment and rules really haven't changed all that much. Unlike C:SM, BA, and SW, our Assault Sgts can't use Storm Shields meaning they die in challenges just like any other marine. You can't assault out of a parked Rhino anymore. And why spend 85 points on an Assault Squad when you can get a RAS for 80 points, which is better in pretty much every way?

But most of the point here are not DA specific. BA or UM assault squads are not able to charge from rhino as well and have a poor firepower.

And I really doubt that the addition of one or 2 grav guns will resolve this problem. Moreover, vanilla will get the drop pod with 10 slots instead of 12 and there's no guarantee they keep the storm shield option.

It's v6- metagame. The top units are short ranges multi shoot units. The losers of this version are the CC orientated units such as assault squads berserkers or banshees...

 

And actually since RAS is typical DA feature, I'm not really annoyed that GW made them more appealing than assault squads.

 

But again I don't understand the argument stating that SM codex will be better thanks to their tactical with grav guns and assault squads with a sgt with a shield.

 

Assault Squads being a weak unit in our Codex comes from the fact that the Assault Squad is a dinosaur, not because of how they compare to Assault Squads in other armies.  That being said, the lack of Storm Shield is a big deal if you ever want your Assault Sgt to actually survive CC against anything other than a guardsman.

 

GW couldn't possibly justify dropping the Storm Shield from the Assault Squad as it's sold in the box.  Heck, the Sgt on the box art is holding the shield!

 

RAS is not a "typical" DA feature.  They are a typical Ravenwing feature.  You're stating exactly my problem with the Codex: it is a Bike and Terminator codex.  They updated RW and DW and gave them new stuff (which is real cool) but the actual backbone of the Dark Angels didn't change very much.  This is why the Assault Squad is a dinosaur.  It might not be unique to DA, but it's the state of the Codex.

 

It's not just about being better.  GW published the DA Codex, then 8 months later redifined what a Tactical Squad is.  If they publish a FAQ that adds Grav weapons to Tac Squads then that's great and I think it's the reasonable thing to do.  But selling Tactical Squad boxes with weapons and options that Dark Angel "Tactical Squads" can't take is bogus.  It creates two tiers of what a "Tactical Squad" is and simply reinforces the notion that we are a Terminator and Bike codex.

[Master Avoghai]

RAS is not a "typical" DA feature. They are a typical Ravenwing feature. You're stating exactly my problem with the Codex: it is a Bike and Terminator codex. They updated RW and DW and gave them new stuff (which is real cool) but the actual backbone of the Dark Angels didn't change very much. This is why the Assault Squad is a dinosaur. It might not be unique to DA, but it's the state of the Codex.

Problem here is the vision we have as dinosaurs in the hobby that played our DA for years and want to explore new things for our army.

But you like it or not :

-DW and RW are DA features that differentiate the codex DA and justifies a release apart from the codex SM.

-RAS are not a RW feature as it seems to imply that RW is a separate army that acts on its own. GW got rid from the "all DW" or "all RW" since last codex... They prefer RW strong or DW strong with GW addition.

 

The product image of DA are termis and bikes in a standard company army. The product image of the BA are assault squads and death company.

So it's normal that bikes are better than assault squads in our codex. As normal as seeing the BA assault squads better than their bikes.

 

Some find that it's harsh to say "IF you want to play full greenwing, play codex SM". But there's a reason behind that. GW tried to balance the mix list to "force" people playing it. The RW + dakka banner list is an industrial incident as GW designers sometimes fail to find a balance (tau crisis, eldar wave serpents... And in the opposite : LS vengeance).

 

So when you play a pure GW, or pure DW and you find that it doesn't work it's normal. It's not how the list is supposed to work.

 

Assault Squads being a weak unit in our Codex comes from the fact that the Assault Squad is a dinosaur, not because of how they compare to Assault Squads in other armies. That being said, the lack of Storm Shield is a big deal if you ever want your Assault Sgt to actually survive CC against anything other than a guardsman.

 

GW couldn't possibly justify dropping the Storm Shield from the Assault Squad as it's sold in the box. Heck, the Sgt on the box art is holding the shield!

By the way are you sure it's a storm shield? I've always figured it was a COMBAT shield due to the inbuilt bolt pistol.

[MadMek83]

Its combat shield in the Assault box. Its just so old mold they could not make pistol there like in Newer Honor guard box. But as far I know, only one's allowing get storm shields for their assault sarge's are Blood Angels and their successors. And yes I am very happy with my Dex. Even more now that I can take 2 extra members to RW command, thanks to FAQ.

[Onisuzume]

We have a good codex. Codex SM will be brought in line with us, not made vastly superior like before. Yes, they will have options we don't have, but so do we.

 

This is the way it's supposed to be.

Think we'll still have valid rights of whining about the anti-air tanks, though.

How can greenwing "stop being worth" ? if SM points are cheaper, if they can take two heavy\special weapons with 9 members etc.

One, I doubt they'll be cheaper.

Two, I doubt they'll get stuff like our sacred standards.

But is the typical tournament list nothing but av14, 2+ armor and flyers? I do not think it is.

Deathwing with land raiders and nephilim?

Don't think that C:DA was that popular, but a list such as that is possible nonetheless.

[Syphid]

Its combat shield in the Assault box. Its just so old mold they could not make pistol there like in Newer Honor guard box. But as far I know, only one's allowing get storm shields for their assault sarge's are Blood Angels and their successors. And yes I am very happy with my Dex. Even more now that I can take 2 extra members to RW command, thanks to FAQ.

 

Nope, it's a Storm Shield.  Closed fist holding the shield is a Storm Shield, regardless of the size.  Shield strapped tot he arm while holding another weapon is the Combat Shield. The shield in the Company Veterans box is a Storm Shield, which makes sense because they can actually take Storm Shields.

 

BA and C:SM Assault Sgts can both use Storm Shields.  Any BT Assault Squad member can take a Storm Shield. SW don't technically have assault Squads, but Wolfen Guard can use Jump Packs and Storm Shields instead.

[FerociousBeast]

 

Closed fist holding the shield is a Storm Shield, regardless of the size.  Shield strapped tot he arm while holding another weapon is the Combat Shield.

 

There is nothing in any GW ruleset that states this.

[Syphid]

Problem here is the vision we have as dinosaurs in the hobby that played our DA for years and want to explore new things for our army.

But you like it or not :

-DW and RW are DA features that differentiate the codex DA and justifies a release apart from the codex SM.

-RAS are not a RW feature as it seems to imply that RW is a separate army that acts on its own. GW got rid from the "all DW" or "all RW" since last codex... They prefer RW strong or DW strong with GW addition.

 

The product image of DA are termis and bikes in a standard company army. The product image of the BA are assault squads and death company.

So it's normal that bikes are better than assault squads in our codex. As normal as seeing the BA assault squads better than their bikes.

 

Some find that it's harsh to say "IF you want to play full greenwing, play codex SM". But there's a reason behind that. GW tried to balance the mix list to "force" people playing it. The RW + dakka banner list is an industrial incident as GW designers sometimes fail to find a balance (tau crisis, eldar wave serpents... And in the opposite : LS vengeance).

 

So when you play a pure GW, or pure DW and you find that it doesn't work it's normal. It's not how the list is supposed to work.

 

By the way are you sure it's a storm shield? I've always figured it was a COMBAT shield due to the inbuilt bolt pistol.

 

No arguments here about DW and RW being unique features of Dark Angels that makes them worthy of a seperate Codex.  But it should be handled either like Space Wolves where every unit is unique from C:SM, or it should be handled like Blood Angels where the basic Space Marine units are the same.   The latter makes more sense, but you can't achieve that if you go on and change, for example, what a Tactical Squad is AFTER printing the DA Codex. It's not about what kind of list you play. DW and RW can still integrate with GW while keeping standard GW units up to par with C:SM.

 

Though they aren't scoring, BA Bikes still have the benefit of higher T, not having to choose between moving 12" and using Hammer of Wrath, relentless Plasmagun and TL Boltguns, and combine well with Priest on bike.  They have a niche as a mobile fire support unit and can be used accordingly.  The difference between BA Assault Squad and Bikes is not nearly as big as that bewteen DA Assault Squad and RAS.  That being said BA Bikes are overpriced as is and I expect they will get a points reduction in their next Codex.

 

It's definitely a Storm Shield.  It has a closed fist holding the shield.  Here's a pic of the spure. The one you're thinking of comes with the Command Squad, and it's a Combat Shield for the Company Champion.

[Syphid]

 

 

Closed fist holding the shield is a Storm Shield, regardless of the size.  Shield strapped tot he arm while holding another weapon is the Combat Shield.

 

There is nothing in any GW ruleset that states this.

 

The definitions of what a Storm Shield and Combat Shield are state this.  Every Codex that has them explains this difference.  That's why a model can't get the bonus for using two close combat weapons while carrying a Storm Shield; the model's other hand is being used to hold the shield.  Ref:  p.63 and 64 of the DA codex.  You can do away with WYSIWYG and call it a combat shield if you'd like, or you can cut the hand off and glue the shield onto a bolt pistol wielding hand, but the shields that come in the Vets box and the Assault Squad box are Storm Shields.

[AngelVeto]

I'm a little surprised at the lack of complaints about chaos daemons in this thread, so I guess it's jus my local meta, but daemons flying circus (fate weaver, LoC, triple tzeentch DP) is almost unbeatable with our dex as is. Having to take forgeworld units is ok if your local meta allows it, which mine does, and that list is forced to play much more strategically to survive. However I'm going to a tournament this weekend that doesn't allow forgeworld, so I'm forced to hope I don't face any FMC spam lists. My best option at this point is to just ignore the flyers and hope they don't beat me up too bad. Having codex anti air is a legitimate gripe in my opinion.

 

That being said, I used the 4th edition dex right up until this new dex came out, and I will continue to use our codex. It's hard to jump around when you tattoo yourself as a member of the 1st... But I may paint up some Salamanders as allies for the tournament scene. Playing pick up games with a pure Dark Angels force is always a blast, but when you sign up for a tournament you know you will be playing competitive lists, and there is no point to lay out the 10$/20$/40$/etc. entry fee and then immediately take a bat to your own kneecap deciding to only use DA. Wether you end up facing Drakespam, Flying Circus Daemons, Cron-Air, you will be at a serious disadvantage.

 

It makes me sad, but what can we do about it besides take our first step on the road to disappointment and hope that things won't be so bad.

 

-Angel

[marvmoogy]

to me, the shields aren't a major thing.....use them as you want.  I cut the top og the handle off and glued a Powersword to one and a bolter to another....instant CS

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

as long as you pay the points for a SS and tell me before the game I don't care...it's nice when you have a Bolt Pistol attached, though, as it makes it clearer.

[FerociousBeast]

The definitions of what a Storm Shield and Combat Shield are state this.  Every Codex that has them explains this difference.  That's why a model can't get the bonus for using two close combat weapons while carrying a Storm Shield; the model's other hand is being used to hold the shield.  Ref:  p.63 and 64 of the DA codex.  You can do away with WYSIWYG and call it a combat shield if you'd like, or you can cut the hand off and glue the shield onto a bolt pistol wielding hand, but the shields that come in the Vets box and the Assault Squad box are Storm Shields.

 

Not true. It's obviously intended to be a combat shield. Can you use it as a storm shield? Sure, why not. But it's clearly a combat shield, whether held in the hand or clipped to the arm.

 

Never in any ruleset that I can think of from GW has GW made any kind of rule about how a model grips a piece of wargear. What you're trying to do is take a fluff description of something and apply it to rules. That never works. The reason a model with a Storm Shield can't use another weapon is not because the SS occupies his hand; it's because the rules say that he can't. 

[Prot]

One of the complaints in this thread is that DA do not have a cost effective AA option.

 

But 3 hell drakes, which seem to be the biggest bone of contention, are 1/3rd of the points of a 1750 list.

 

So my question is what would you consider cost effective to counter 1/3rd of your opponents army?

 

I am also curious as when ever the Neph is complained about, the only flyer mentioned is the hell drake... And sometimes the vendetta.

 

What about compaired to the Ork, Tau, Eldar, DEldar, Necron, Demon, and Nid flyers?

 

Since you asked...

I play Necrons, and Chaos. I play against a guy who always uses 3 Ork flyers, a few marine players and one of them always uses two BA Flyers. And I see the eldar one being fielded once in a while. And I face croissant wing quite a bit...

 

You said this before, but I have to counter that in my personal experience I still feel the Neph is the worst of the lot. Either on an offensive stand point, survivability standpoint, or just pure value standpoint. (It's way over costed.)

 

I honestly don't know if you aren't playing against said opponents or you are looking for advice or trying to sell Nephilims but in my opinion and personal experience they are by far the worst that I see.

 

Trust me I was all over them when I saw the kit. I promptly fielded it and realized it really is not _reliable_ anti air and can only take down (within reason) a few flyers, and only if it gets the drop on the opponent since it is low AV. Just combined with the cost factor it's out to lunch, and I only recommend it for 'fun' games... the type of games where your opponent is trying goofy things and you don't care if you win or not.

 

+++ on another note +++

Three Baledrakes is the I win button against Ravenwing. So if you intend to contend at a tournament, you better think of something to counter it. If you play greenwing perhaps you don't care? Or Deathwing?

 

So I've gone with 3 approaches: 1) trying the Nephilim in different load outs against different opponents until thoroughly disgusted. 2) Going with Aegis/Bastion with Quad, 3) ignoring air completely, and trying to get 'underneath' it ASAP.

 

Since I tried it with Chaos and didn't like it, I never did give Flak Missiles a chance with Dark angels.

 

++++

 

Some parts of the DA codex reek of over cautiousness. Just like Chaos. I've heard that podcasts with writers of the early codexes felt they were to conservative. I don't know if this is true, but I think it's a large reason why people are waiting with baited breath to see what happens with C:SM.  I don't blame them... I'm curious too.

[Brother dean]

Everybody gets excited about the Nephilim being anti air just because the fluff says so...  It is an air to ground platform.  If you dont believe me look at the strafing run rule.  Now what would you pay for 10 S5/6 shots @ 36" range on top of a 36" movement?  A LRC is 250 points for 12 @ S4 R12 and 4 @ S6 @ R24 with a 6" move

 

If you are trying to take out dragons and Valks with your Nephilim you are doing it wrong..

 

Having said that.  We do lack reliable AA outside of FW Mortis Dreads...  

[Terrahawk]

Everybody gets excited about the Nephilim being anti air just because the fluff says so... It is an air to ground platform. If you dont believe me look at the strafing run rule. Now what would you pay for 10 S5/6 shots @ 36" range on top of a 36" movement? A LRC is 250 points for 12 @ S4 R12 and 4 @ S6 @ R24 with a 6" move

If you are trying to take out dragons and Valks with your Nephilim you are doing it wrong..

Having said that. We do lack reliable AA outside of FW Mortis Dreads...

Yeah. Our lack of reliable AA is pretty much the only thing that can be considered a major weakness in our 'dex.

If your gaming venues allow Forge World, problem solved. According to current rumours, Mortis Dreads are shaping up to be better AA than the new marine tanks (they have no Interceptor). And very, very fluffy at that.

[Prot]

Everybody gets excited about the Nephilim being anti air just because the fluff says so...  It is an air to ground platform.  If you dont believe me look at the strafing run rule.  Now what would you pay for 10 S5/6 shots @ 36" range on top of a 36" movement?  A LRC is 250 points for 12 @ S4 R12 and 4 @ S6 @ R24 with a 6" move

 

If you are trying to take out dragons and Valks with your Nephilim you are doing it wrong..

 

Having said that.  We do lack reliable AA outside of FW Mortis Dreads...  

 

I completely agree with what you're saying. In fact, I first relied on the fluff/background of the flyer to judge it, realized that there is design flaw for this purpose. Then I re-fitted it, and played it exactly as you're saying (although why it can't hover is beyond me)... as a strafing unit. However, it is still over priced for that purpose. You can do MUCH better with those points, and you won't be a lame duck the second an opponent's flyer comes into play.

[Syphid]

 

The definitions of what a Storm Shield and Combat Shield are state this.  Every Codex that has them explains this difference.  That's why a model can't get the bonus for using two close combat weapons while carrying a Storm Shield; the model's other hand is being used to hold the shield.  Ref:  p.63 and 64 of the DA codex.  You can do away with WYSIWYG and call it a combat shield if you'd like, or you can cut the hand off and glue the shield onto a bolt pistol wielding hand, but the shields that come in the Vets box and the Assault Squad box are Storm Shields.

 

Not true. It's obviously intended to be a combat shield. Can you use it as a storm shield? Sure, why not. But it's clearly a combat shield, whether held in the hand or clipped to the arm.

 

Never in any ruleset that I can think of from GW has GW made any kind of rule about how a model grips a piece of wargear. What you're trying to do is take a fluff description of something and apply it to rules. That never works. The reason a model with a Storm Shield can't use another weapon is not because the SS occupies his hand; it's because the rules say that he can't. 

 

This is a combat shield.

 

These are power armor storm shields.

 

This is a terminator storm shield.

 

Here's a space wolf PA storm shield.

 

"A combat shield is a lighter version of a storm shield that is fitted to the arm of the wearer.  That leaves the user's other hand free to wield a pistol or other weapon, substituting a measure of defence for versatility."  p.63

 

"A model equipped with a storm shield can never claim the +1 bonus Attack for being armed with two melee weapons in assault." p.64

 

You can say your models are armed with whatever you'd like, but the shields in the Assault Squad and Company Vets box are storm shields.  The difference between a storm shield and a combat shield is as obvious as the difference between a lightning claw and a power fist, or a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol.  I mean, there nothing in the rules that dictates the aesthetic difference between pieces of wargear, but we all know that there's a difference based on the fluff descriptions.

[elphilo]

Everybody gets excited about the Nephilim being anti air just because the fluff says so...  It is an air to ground platform.  If you dont believe me look at the strafing run rule.  Now what would you pay for 10 S5/6 shots @ 36" range on top of a 36" movement?  A LRC is 250 points for 12 @ S4 R12 and 4 @ S6 @ R24 with a 6" move

 

If you are trying to take out dragons and Valks with your Nephilim you are doing it wrong..

 

Having said that.  We do lack reliable AA outside of FW Mortis Dreads...

While I agree with this, they also tried to make it a anti tank because of Unrelenting Hunter. So now we're stuck with a vehicle that tries to do both roles and doesn't do either one great.

[ValourousHeart]

The biggest issue with missile launchers is they don't actually counter Heldrakes. Sure, you can spend 175 points to fill a devastator squad with them, but heldrakes are AP3 and ignores cover AND are going to come into the game as a reserve unit so unless you get long board, they'll roast the whole squad on the turn they arrive. Any other army's flyers, mass rocket launchers in a dev squad is pretty nice, but it does nothing against Heldrakes.

 

I've had the most success against Heldrakes with Terminators that I don't Deathwing Assault with. Deep strike it behind a flyer and pray your twin-links will let you glance it to death. But that's always a hail-mary play at best.

 

In that example, yes I would have to agree with you that ML don't counter Heldrakes.... but just in that example. 

What you just defined was cramming all of your AA into a SINGLE UNIT and standing it against 3 UNITS that wound you 2/3^rd of the time, ignore your armor & cover, and will always have the first shot against you.

 

No to put to fine a point on that but.... NO DUH!!!!

 

Let’s assume something crazy... Let's assume you actually know your opponent and what his list is before you deploy.

Let's even assume that you know who is going first (barring stealing the initiative).

Last time I checked that was pretty standard in a tournament, so it might not be that crazy of an assumption.

 

So what would you do if you didn't serve all of your AA on a sacrificial alter? How would it work then?

 

 

 

But is the typical tournament list nothing but av14, 2+ armor and flyers? I do not think it is.

Deathwing with land raiders and nephilim?

Don't think that C:DA was that popular, but a list such as that is possible nonetheless.

 

I didn't say that it wasn't possible...

I just said that it wasn't typical, which you just confirmed by saying that it wasn't popular.

 

So my counter is that spamming ML with Krak, Frag and Flak will deal with most units you will have to face at a typical tournament.

What those don't deal with you will have Melta, Plasma and Flamers.

 

If I am wrong what am I missing?