ValourousHeart Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 One of the complaints .... Since you asked... I play Necrons, and Chaos. I play against a guy who always uses 3 Ork flyers, a few marine players and one of them always uses two BA Flyers. And I see the eldar one being fielded once in a while. And I face croissant wing quite a bit... You said this before, but I have to counter that in my personal experience I still feel the Neph is the worst of the lot. Either on an offensive stand point, survivability standpoint, or just pure value standpoint. (It's way over costed.) I honestly don't know if you aren't playing against said opponents or you are looking for advice or trying to sell Nephilims but in my opinion and personal experience they are by far the worst that I see. .... +++ on another note +++ Three Baledrakes is the I win button against Ravenwing. So if you intend to contend at a tournament, you better think of something to counter it. If you play greenwing perhaps you don't care? Or Deathwing? .... Well you found me out... I don’t play tournaments anymore. They stopped being fun, and so I stopped going. Ok, so you either play or face 5 different flyers. 5 of the 18, that is a very good start. I wonder if anyone has faced more. What I keep pointing out is that there is only talk of 3 of these 18 flyers, yet everyone insists on claiming that the Nephilim is one of the worst, if not the worst, flyer in the game, but only based on those 3. I find that hard to accept as gospel considering some of these 18 are never fielded! So here is a list of the 18 flyers in the game... What order would you put them all in and why? What criteria do you rate them by? Heldrake Nephilim Dark Talon Razorwing DE Bomber Hemlock Crimson Valkyrie Vendetta Nightscythe Doomscythe Dakkajet Burna-Bommer Blitza-Bommer Stormtalon Stormraven Sunshark Razorshark Someone above mentioned FMC, should they be included in this list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The FMC are flyers since they can vector strike a flyer and are considered as so when they fly... A way to give Nids and daemons some "flyers" so that people stop whining... And now we have people whining because the FMC are totally broken... I'm from those who think that we shouldn't have created the FMC status... I prefer hearing some Nids players whining than seeing a tzeentch FMC spam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 So here is a list of the 18 flyers in the game... What order would you put them all in and why? What criteria do you rate them by? Heldrake Nephilim Dark Talon Razorwing DE Bomber Hemlock Crimson Valkyrie Vendetta Nightscythe Doomscythe Dakkajet Burna-Bommer Blitza-Bommer Stormtalon Stormraven Sunshark Razorshark Someone above mentioned FMC, should they be included in this list? av hp relative pt ratio weapons intangible ranking10. Nightscythe 11,11,11 3 0.50 s7x4tl, tesla ded. Tranport, troops immune on explode 19. Vendetta 12,12,10 3 0.65 s9x3tl transport 216. Stormraven 12,12,12 3 1.00 s8x3, s9tlx1 change weaps for free, trans troop + dread 31. Heldrake 12,12, 10 3 0.88 s6 ap3 template, v. strike regen HP, invul save 47. Crimson 10,10,10 3 0.80 str8x4 exarch, upgrades 515. Stormtalon 11,11,11 2 0.55 s6x4rend, s5x3 may upgrade, turret 68. Valkyrie 12,12,10 3 0.55 s6x3 s8x2 no one ever uses this 74. Razorwing 10,10,10 3 0.73 s8 lance nightshields? 85. Voidraven 11,11,10 3 0.73 s9 lance bomb? 918. Razorshark 11,10,10 3 0.73 s8x2, s7x4, s5x4 turret 1017. Sunshark 11,10,10 3 0.83 s8x2, s7x3, s5x1blast interceptor, regn bomb 1112. Dakkajet 10,10,10 2 0.55 s6x6tl 122. Nephilim 11,11,11 3 0.90 str9x1 tl, s6x6, s5x3 huntr rule 133. Dark Talon 11,11,11 3 0.80 st4x6 tl, s5x1, s3x1 blind, red tough 1411. Doomscythe 11,11,12 3 0.88 s10 template 156. Hemlock 10,10,10 3 0.93 s4 ap2x2 blast pyschic abil terrify, 1614. Blitza-Bommer 10,10,10 2 0.68 s6x3tl, s5x3, s7bombx2 1713. Burna-Bommer 10,10,10 2 0.63 s6x3tl,s5x3tl, s5bomb 18 if this needs it onw thread ill start one, but this is how i would rank the flyers in the game. the column of relative pt ratio is the points of the flyers divided by the flyer with highest points, showing their relative points cost, with out showing the actual points cost. obviously the higher the points cost the more expensive in points. I tried to rank the flyers based on their points cost ratio, survivability, offensive capability, and intangibles based on other flyers in the game. Naturally this makes it harder to quantify planes like dark talon, hemlock wraith fighter, doomscythe, but i did the best i could. Please note this is subjective. interestly the tau flyers are above the dark angel flyers based on cost and intangibles. i dont know all the rules for the eldar and dark eldar flyers so if that changes the analysis substantially please let me know. i didn't feel like including FMCs since they tend to rely on psychic powers which can change their abilities substantially. my apologies for the wierd formatting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRSFACE Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Crimson Hunters are pretty boss. There's really no point in fielding armor at all against a guy who fills all 3 of his fast attack slots with them. Yeah, they can be glanced to death with just bolter fire, but the ability to turn after they fire means that one of the only inherent weaknesses to flyers is a non-issue. I am currently building a really cheesy 1850 list (that's what our tournies field around here) that's 3 fire prisms, 3 crimson hunters, and everything that's on the ground is inside a wave serpent with a missile launcher. It's like $800 bucks down the road, though, and I'm in no hurry as I kind of just dislike the actual game of Warhammer. I just love the universe and the models. It's a fun game to play with friends in the comfort of your own home, but trying to play at a Hobby shop where there's always the dillweed who fields 12 unpainted Imperial Guard flyers AND who is hyper critical of everything you do, it's just an experience I would rather never have to deal with again. Out of the two guys who kind of run the scene where I live, one guy is a great dude and enjoys fielding decent lists but things that are fluffy and can still be beat. The other guy exclusively plays Imperial Guard and is proud of the fact no one enjoys playing against him. He also moans that we have a few "win and all costs" players (when he is clearly the biggest one of them all), and frequently cheats when playing newer players who don't know the rules so well. For example, I was running my chaos cultist spam list for silliness' sake, and he fielding his BROTHER'S army of Iyanden-themed Wrathknight spam. I, still being the new player that I am, asked if strength 3 could even hurt toughness 6 because the way I had learned how to figure what wounds what is equal values = 4+, +1 toughness over strength = 5+, +2 = 6+. Didn't realize that +3 toughness over strength is still 6+ to wound. So he says "Yeah I guess you can't." And then had the audacity to be butthurt I didn't want to play anymore because I scooped up my army. I've just told people I refuse to play them if they are running a 5th ed Codex because they aren't balanced in line with 6th ed rules. Yeah, okay some things got weaker and a lot of things are more expensive than the inevitable 6th ed codex will have them, but the things that are game-breaking are still super game-breaking and unfun to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Gentlemen, stay on topic please. Lots of sidetracking, specially about flyers. Something that is not new to this forum and is subject to deceased equine spanking very often with always the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 @ Polythemus, Wow this is great, thank you. I agree that this should probably be changed over to its own thread. I think the ratios are off slightly, taking the Nephilim and the Stormraven (GK book) I get 0.88. From here I figured we could define the different battle field roles and rate each at their effectiveness at dealing with different targets. Now that I see what you have put together, I have some new questions I hadn’t thought of before. You list the Valkyrie before any of the flyers from Codex Tau, DE, DA and Orks, but state that no one uses Valkyries. When I asked the questions I assumed that any flyer that was used would automatically be higher on the list than any that were not used. I also figured that the 2 Tau flyers would have been lower on the list, as their general usefulness is meh when you look at what they add to a Tau army. It is also interesting that you rank the Dakkajet higher than the Nephilim. They have similar armaments, when you take the avenger, meaning that their battle field role is similar. The Dakkajet is BS 2, 2 HP, AV10 and has 6 S6 TL shots. The Nephilim is BS 4, 3 HP, AV11 and has 5 S6 shots, 3 S5 TL shots and 6 S6 missiles. Statically 5 S6 shots at BS 4 are equal to 6 S6 TL shots at BS 2 vs. AV12, but the Nephilim has more guns than just the 5 shots from the Avenger. The only comparison where the Dakkajet comes out ahead is on cost. In a head to head match if the Dakkajet goes first it will knock off 1 HP, and Nephilim will knock off 3. If the Nephilim goes first, the Dakkajet won't get a chance to fire. *Edit* Didn't see your post CL, we'll move this to a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherthefallenangel Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 The dakka jet is usually up graded with an ace pilot(bs3) and if you waaaarg it gets 12 S6tl shots. So it is way better than the nephilim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Kinda.....I enjoyed it but i'm a bit miffed with some stuffs and i really can't see our codex being highly competitive. Let me explain. Deathwing getting a price increase with a marginal upgrade. Vengeful strike was good and all, but... i dunno... the price increase on belial and DW termie is just ... rough. I feel i have less on board and only slightly shooting prowess increase and not much more survivable. Ravenwing too, even though is really good... but u meet a guy with 2-3 heldrakes, to quote private Hudson, "Game Over man, Game Over, what are we gonna do now?". I do enjoy finally having a LandSpeeder Typhoon though on a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. As for Nephilim jetfighter? i did try it one game, and its only target is a Stormraven, and i brought 2 of the Nephilim. Yeah... it killed the Stormraven (Lascannon loadout), but 360 pts vs 200ish pts? it'd better kill that flyer. I got the drop too on that Stormraven. So i can't comment on Nephilim because i don't have much experience fielding it, and in the one time i bring it, it was great. As for greenwing, i don't know.... a lot of stuffs are better than before, but missed opportunity with Veterans i think. They could've done so much more to Veterans. I'm not saying making sternguard out of them or vanguard. Just... something... i don't know. The rest of the things are just bringing the codex inline with the older SM codex. Relic too, i lovvveeee the Mace of Redemption. But i looked at my Company Master models from GW, and they all using swords (yeah... i missed the one with combi plasma). And the relic sword we got? Monster Slayer of Caliban? too random.... too weak for the pts for the avg roll.... too expensive overall. I was hoping with all the models with swords... they would make a badass sword avalaible for Generic IC in the codex, especially with our chapter emblem is a SWORD with wings. And the hell with Azrael sword of secrets, omg... lamer than Belial sword of silence. At the very least they could've given it AP2 since fluff wise it was SOOO sharp. And Traitor's Bane without Bane of Traitor's rule? ooo GW.... With mixed wings though, i had a modicum of successes with greenwing combined with either raven or death. Deathraven sadly, i still haven't won a single time. CSM usually gives me a run of my money if they spam heldrake, usually with me being the loser. I haven't tried new Tau or Eldar, but against the rest, it was good, unless it's flyer spamming necrons. TL;DR version, I enjoyed it, but i can't say it's competitive. A lot of holding back from Vettock it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Ravenwing too, even though is really good... but u meet a guy with 2-3 heldrakes, to quote private Hudson, "Game Over man, Game Over, what are we gonna do now?". I do enjoy finally having a LandSpeeder Typhoon though on a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. As for Nephilim jetfighter? i did try it one game, and its only target is a Stormraven, and i brought 2 of the Nephilim. Yeah... it killed the Stormraven (Lascannon loadout), but 360 pts vs 200ish pts? it'd better kill that flyer. I got the drop too on that Stormraven. So i can't comment on Nephilim because i don't have much experience fielding it, and in the one time i bring it, it was great. But what IF the problem wouldn't come from DA codex but from the drake? I mean re-read your post it seems that your nemesis is only helldrake spam (what about a chaos list with one single drake?) Can't we consider that the error of GW is not having created a bad DA codex but a very ugly chaos flyer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Well, Master Avoghai, i did say that Ravenwing is really good. I'm just saying that Heldrake put a stomp on heavy ravenwing list. I'm just stating my opinion based on my meta, which has ALOT of heldrakes and i mean ALOT. And you can't say that in any competitive arena, that nobody gonna use/spam heldrake. I'm just stating my opinion, friend. It is a thread for our opinion right? I'm not passing it off as fact for everybody, just me... sides the Relics... now that is fact :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I didn't mean you were wrong on considering that drake spam is the rule on competitive area AND that because of that RW had trouble with such list. I just meant that relativity has maybe a place here to say that codex DA is not built right. If you improve the DA to counter a drake list, the other armies will still have problem with drakes spam. Remove the drake and you'll observe that everything is much more balanced without need to update the codex DA (except maybe the termi sgt weapon swap and the vengeance cost) So the problem is not the codex DA, it's the fact that drake is -too cheap (cheaper than nephilim) -too resistant (hit on 6s, A12, 5+ in save and regenerate... Come on) -too powerful (torrent weapon with a strength that wounds 80% of the models AP that negates 80% of the armours and negate covers with a 360 degrees arc of fire) + vector strike S7. Give the Drakes a 200pts cost with A11 an arc of fire of 180 degrees and remove the regeneration... You'll see the codex DA is a VERY good codex and the nephilim doesn't even need an update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherthefallenangel Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I'm happy with ravenwing. its alot better than before and somewhat competitive. I'm kinda happy with deathwing. It did get better rules but it also has the same problem as before. Very few models and a few bad rolls can ruin your day. Greenwing is ok. Considering that 80% of the chapter are Greenwing I had hoped for more. The repointing was necessary but nothing special really. The lack of DA specific psypowers was a disapointment. Vanilla, BA, and wolves have their own and I would have liked some DA only ones. The relics are meh. It would have been nice to have more than one thats really any good. My biggest gripes are the terminator sgt can no longer swap weapons(:cuss stupid), the Power Field generator nerf, the fliers, and the LS vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Angel Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 If you look at the most recent FAQ, it states any model can, so your sarge is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 If you look at the most recent FAQ, it states any model can, so your arge is good. Not so. it states any model can exchange powerfist and storm bolter. Since Sgt has powersword he can't exchange what he doesn't have. It's the biggest gripe with April FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 Grrrr... don't remind me CL... you'll set me off again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 It's funny that the datafile people havent updated the armybuilder files for that particular quirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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