rpnightsend Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 So after a long break from 40k I picked it up again last week. Knowing my boys in green got a new book, I bought it, along with the new terminators, bikes and flyer kit. Looking in the book, I thought the Dark Talon seemed like a pretty versatile unit, Spitting out a pretty good amount of S6 shots for shredding Light vehicles/*most* other flyers or for just gunning down infantry who the rest of my army can't be bothered to. But it seems the consensus on the internet is that its pretty garbage. It seems this mostly stems from the pricetag and single TL Lascannon, because it doesnt make it a true vehicle hunter. The Nephilim seems cool but I don't feel like its super useful for things other than the stasis bomb. What are your thoughts? I'd really like to make the Dark Talon work as an anti-vehicle/fighter but if its just not gonna happen I will leave it on the shelf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I think you've inverted the names Dark talon is the one with the stasis bomb Nephilim is the one with multi S6 shoots. The problem is not really the rules, it's the cost. Nephilim would be ok at 130-140. DT would be nice at 120. You have also to consider the opposition : if every flyers had bomba's or Tau flyers profiles then I can deal with S6 missiles. But what can I do against A12 flyers? Principally when Nephilim is my quasi unique source of AA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I like mine but why choose one over the other? It's a $75 mini, just as well spend $5 more for magnets and get both units out of it... http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271107-magnetizing-your-nephilimdark-talon/ I've used the Dark Talon 5 times now and have only pulled off the synergy move with the bomb once. I think it is going to be a finesse unit to use it right. I have not tried the Nephilim yet but I plan to next tourny and as Master Avoghai points out above I believe you have them backwards.... (but I believe it is pointed right mostly... the missiles could use a buff) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The problem is not really the rules, it's the cost. Nephilim would be ok at 130-140. DT would be nice at 120. You have also to consider the opposition : if every flyers had bomba's or Tau flyers profiles then I can deal with S6 missiles. But what can I do against A12 flyers? Principally when Nephilim is my quasi unique source of AA? Hit the nail on the head. If the Nephilim had a price reduction to the same amount of the Crimson Hunter it would be okay. Not great but something one would consider. But what really tips the scale into "meh" territory is their missiles. Its worse than a flakk missile but is one use only. . . . I hate to tell you this, because I love the model, but you should probably put that flyer back on the shelf. I've got 2 sitting in foam waiting for better days /sigh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Yup, same as above. I have one, and I've played the Nephilim in a handful of games. At first with the twin lascannon and then I realized it's actually outmatched for most aerial 'dogfighting'. It will get chewed up by -most- of the flyers in the game. It will also have trouble putting a dent into most of the flyers of the game. And finally, as mentioned it's too expensive points wise. When you look at something like the Heldrake or even the Talon (Blood angels) the Nephilim feels pretty feeble. They really screwed up on this one. In the end I wanted to field the model so much I just used its 'strafing run' rule and used it as a floating pillbox with the Avenger bolter. This way all the medium strength missiles and hvy bolter which can't do squat to most flyers, are now matched up with the Avenger. Within a few games of playing it that way I had to pull it out of the list. It still just costs too much and is too fragile, and has no real offensive ability. If you read the background story on the Nephilim, where they find the STC that makes the Lion's engine pattern, you think to yourself, this thing must be awesome, but it's horribly disappointing. You'd think something that awesome would be able to arm itself at least as competently as the Blood Angels flyer, but nope. The two are night and day. It can't even hover with these amazing engines! Unless you want a cool model to look at on your shelf do yourself a favour and try to find another, less frustrating way, to deal with anti-air. I mean that sincerely because I too love the model and have gone through all the classic phases of 'grieving' for this horrible unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 it's actually outmatched for most aerial 'dogfighting'. It will get chewed up by -most- of the flyers in the game. It will also have trouble putting a dent into most of the flyers of the game. .... When you look at something like the Heldrake or even the Talon (Blood angels) the Nephilim feels pretty feeble. I would like to point out that by "most" flyers people mean 3 out of the 18 flyers currently in codexes... Not counting any FMC, or FW contributions. The Neph will easily deal with Ork, Tau, Eldar, DEldar, Necron, Demon, and Tyranid flyers. As for Sisters, they don't even have an AA option out side terrain pieces that every army has access to or FW. The Neph will also do fairly well vs Valkyries and Talons, depending on who gets the drop on whom. The 3 that the Neph could have difficulty with are the Hell Drake, Vendetta and Stormraven. With the latter two if the Neph can get the drop on them it has a chance. As for the Dragon... Well that is just a bad match up. The dragon, as with all of the go to units for CSM since early 2nd edition, have all relied on game mechanics that were abusive, under costed, and bordered on broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 Ok yes, I did mean Nephilim (with a name like that I was assuming that was the one with half a cathedral on its cockpit). I have a thing for aerial dogfighting and anti-air air units (i own 3 vendettas and a vulture for my elysians). but it seems the consensus is: Overpriced, Underpowered Missiles, and the Heavy Bolter is almost useless. Darn, maybe I'll give the Dark Talon a try. What's the consensus on Dark Talons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The consensus is : overpriced You pay the same price for 6 bikes with 2 special weapons that may profit from the standard of devastation.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I would like to point out that by "most" flyers people mean 3 out of the 18 flyers currently in codexes... Not counting any FMC, or FW contributions. Sure but the problem is that : Every army allowed to play one of those 3 will count at least one... As a consequence of their weakness : merely none of the armies with other flyers will include one. So when comes the time of building an all rounder list tell me why I should include a unit that has no effect on the 3 broken flyers and I'm sure to not face the other ones? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3419797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The consensus is : overpriced You pay the same price for 6 bikes with 2 special weapons that may profit from the standard of devastation.. Actually, the Talon is cheaper than 6 vanilla bikes. And is there any reason it's hurricane bolters can't take advantage of the SoD? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The Nephilim is just overcosted, even a simple rending on the cannon would make it worth it. That said, it a lovely model. As said above, it will nail lightly armoured flyers fairly reliably as well. It depends on your local meta I suppose as to its effectiveness - and if you are wanting to save on points. If their flyer is weaker, it makes sense to take one, shoot it down, and then chew up infantry. If the flyers they can get are better go for an Aegis + Quad gun or bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The nephilim is a beautiful model and the dark talon too... period... there is nothing more good in them... too pricey (both in money and in points) with weak weapons and weird rules... Vanilla marines (and BT) did get the SR... Why DA didnt??? simply because GW knows it's a lot better than both our plane together for just 20 points more than the NJF so if GW allowed DA to buy SR they knew that no DA would buy anymore NJF/DT kits... but my question is... how many kits of DT/NJF they sold??? i Always see on sites and forums models from DV and DW/RW squads with the new kits... DS i see too but very few LSV... We can struggle to make NJF usefull but we must surrender that it sucks both at AA combat (weak missiles with short range and TLHB that is useful only against AV10 flyers) and in strafing (for the same points you buy 3 LS with 2xHB each... in the codex NJF is shown as a dogfighter and it has a skill that gives it a better BS when attacking ground troops... it should be the opposite... DT has two interesting supporting weapons but one is One use only while the rift cannon can barely do some weak damage... in addiction the main strafing weapon is a hurricane bolter tht maked good damage (better with SoD) only against light armoured targets and the main enemy of DA is the fallen and CSM that usually wear 3+/2+ armour... it can kill some cultists and drop a stasis bomb on the target of the DWK charge... to get better BS against ground targets he has to do the hovering that is like "i am here shoot me down"... ST had this crappy rule and GW fixed it in DFTS with a more usable skimmer/flyer switching and with a massive points reduction (20 points less) confirmed in the new SM codex according to the rumors... I guess we will have to rely on AA missiles only for AA until the new codex unless we have the luck to play in a club that allows FW models... i have that luck and i can field a mortis dread with dual TLAC that i use as a regular rifleman dread when i cannot use FW models... According to math ST has 27% chance of destroying a AV12 flyer in one turn while NJF just 11% the same of a devastator squad with AA missile and the dev squad can shoot krak missiles to tanks too... my single box of NJF/DT is still intact and i will wait to build a DT/NJF (and buying a second kit to be able two field 2 flyers) until i will see a faq or a new DA codex... the same goes for LSV... i own a DS and it's enough for me having also a BK squad (6 men) and a LS squadron (3 typhoons)... i like the models... but spending 60€ for a model i dont use it's not for me... i buy two boxes of tactical squads or a LR with the same money... and they are both better use on the battlefield... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 The nephilim is a beautiful model and the dark talon too... period... there is nothing more good in them... too pricey (both in money and in points) with weak weapons and weird rules... Vanilla marines (and BT) did get the SR... Why DA didnt??? simply because GW knows it's a lot better than both our plane together for just 20 points more than the NJF so if GW allowed DA to buy SR they knew that no DA would buy anymore NJF/DT kits... but my question is... how many kits of DT/NJF they sold??? i Always see on sites and forums models from DV and DW/RW squads with the new kits... DS i see too but very few LSV... We can struggle to make NJF usefull but we must surrender that it sucks both at AA combat (weak missiles with short range and TLHB that is useful only against AV10 flyers) and in strafing (for the same points you buy 3 LS with 2xHB each... in the codex NJF is shown as a dogfighter and it has a skill that gives it a better BS when attacking ground troops... it should be the opposite... DT has two interesting supporting weapons but one is One use only while the rift cannon can barely do some weak damage... in addiction the main strafing weapon is a hurricane bolter tht maked good damage (better with SoD) only against light armoured targets and the main enemy of DA is the fallen and CSM that usually wear 3+/2+ armour... it can kill some cultists and drop a stasis bomb on the target of the DWK charge... to get better BS against ground targets he has to do the hovering that is like "i am here shoot me down"... ST had this crappy rule and GW fixed it in DFTS with a more usable skimmer/flyer switching and with a massive points reduction (20 points less) confirmed in the new SM codex according to the rumors... I guess we will have to rely on AA missiles only for AA until the new codex unless we have the luck to play in a club that allows FW models... i have that luck and i can field a mortis dread with dual TLAC that i use as a regular rifleman dread when i cannot use FW models... According to math ST has 27% chance of destroying a AV12 flyer in one turn while NJF just 11% the same of a devastator squad with AA missile and the dev squad can shoot krak missiles to tanks too... my single box of NJF/DT is still intact and i will wait to build a DT/NJF (and buying a second kit to be able two field 2 flyers) until i will see a faq or a new DA codex... the same goes for LSV... i own a DS and it's enough for me having also a BK squad (6 men) and a LS squadron (3 typhoons)... i like the models... but spending 60€ for a model i dont use it's not for me... i buy two boxes of tactical squads or a LR with the same money... and they are both better use on the battlefield... I'm sorry but I had a lot of trouble reading your post because of all the Acronyms. could someone translate for me? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The consensus is : overpriced You pay the same price for 6 bikes with 2 special weapons that may profit from the standard of devastation.. Actually, the Talon is cheaper than 6 vanilla bikes. And is there any reason it's hurricane bolters can't take advantage of the SoD? Yup : the range of an SoD try to bring them within 6" of the flyer, you'll see it has to be more or less under the DT. It's still possible though but when you take into account the movement of the flyer, placing this combo during a game is technically very difficult... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The nephilim is a beautiful model and the dark talon too... period... there is nothing more good in them... too pricey (both in money and in points) with weak weapons and weird rules... Vanilla marines (and BT) did get the SR... Why DA didnt??? simply because GW knows it's a lot better than both our plane together for just 20 points more than the NJF so if GW allowed DA to buy SR they knew that no DA would buy anymore NJF/DT kits... but my question is... how many kits of DT/NJF they sold??? i Always see on sites and forums models from DV and DW/RW squads with the new kits... DS i see too but very few LSV... We can struggle to make NJF usefull but we must surrender that it sucks both at AA combat (weak missiles with short range and TLHB that is useful only against AV10 flyers) and in strafing (for the same points you buy 3 LS with 2xHB each... in the codex NJF is shown as a dogfighter and it has a skill that gives it a better BS when attacking ground troops... it should be the opposite... DT has two interesting supporting weapons but one is One use only while the rift cannon can barely do some weak damage... in addiction the main strafing weapon is a hurricane bolter tht maked good damage (better with SoD) only against light armoured targets and the main enemy of DA is the fallen and CSM that usually wear 3+/2+ armour... it can kill some cultists and drop a stasis bomb on the target of the DWK charge... to get better BS against ground targets he has to do the hovering that is like "i am here shoot me down"... ST had this crappy rule and GW fixed it in DFTS with a more usable skimmer/flyer switching and with a massive points reduction (20 points less) confirmed in the new SM codex according to the rumors... I guess we will have to rely on AA missiles only for AA until the new codex unless we have the luck to play in a club that allows FW models... i have that luck and i can field a mortis dread with dual TLAC that i use as a regular rifleman dread when i cannot use FW models... According to math ST has 27% chance of destroying a AV12 flyer in one turn while NJF just 11% the same of a devastator squad with AA missile and the dev squad can shoot krak missiles to tanks too... my single box of NJF/DT is still intact and i will wait to build a DT/NJF (and buying a second kit to be able two field 2 flyers) until i will see a faq or a new DA codex... the same goes for LSV... i own a DS and it's enough for me having also a BK squad (6 men) and a LS squadron (3 typhoons)... i like the models... but spending 60€ for a model i dont use it's not for me... i buy two boxes of tactical squads or a LR with the same money... and they are both better use on the battlefield... The nephilim is a beautiful model and the dark talon too... period... there is nothing more good in them... too pricey (both in money and in points) with weak weapons and weird rules... Vanilla marines (and BT) did get the SR... Why DA didnt??? simply because GW knows it's a lot better than both our plane together for just 20 points more than the NJF so if GW allowed DA to buy SR they knew that no DA would buy anymore NJF/DT kits... but my question is... how many kits of DT/NJF they sold??? i Always see on sites and forums models from DV and DW/RW squads with the new kits... DS i see too but very few LSV... We can struggle to make NJF usefull but we must surrender that it sucks both at AA combat (weak missiles with short range and TLHB that is useful only against AV10 flyers) and in strafing (for the same points you buy 3 LS with 2xHB each... in the codex NJF is shown as a dogfighter and it has a skill that gives it a better BS when attacking ground troops... it should be the opposite... DT has two interesting supporting weapons but one is One use only while the rift cannon can barely do some weak damage... in addiction the main strafing weapon is a hurricane bolter tht maked good damage (better with SoD) only against light armoured targets and the main enemy of DA is the fallen and CSM that usually wear 3+/2+ armour... it can kill some cultists and drop a stasis bomb on the target of the DWK charge... to get better BS against ground targets he has to do the hovering that is like "i am here shoot me down"... ST had this crappy rule and GW fixed it in DFTS with a more usable skimmer/flyer switching and with a massive points reduction (20 points less) confirmed in the new SM codex according to the rumors... I guess we will have to rely on AA missiles only for AA until the new codex unless we have the luck to play in a club that allows FW models... i have that luck and i can field a mortis dread with dual TLAC that i use as a regular rifleman dread when i cannot use FW models... According to math ST has 27% chance of destroying a AV12 flyer in one turn while NJF just 11% the same of a devastator squad with AA missile and the dev squad can shoot krak missiles to tanks too... my single box of NJF/DT is still intact and i will wait to build a DT/NJF (and buying a second kit to be able two field 2 flyers) until i will see a faq or a new DA codex... the same goes for LSV... i own a DS and it's enough for me having also a BK squad (6 men) and a LS squadron (3 typhoons)... i like the models... but spending 60€ for a model i dont use it's not for me... i buy two boxes of tactical squads or a LR with the same money... and they are both better use on the battlefield... I'm sorry but I had a lot of trouble reading your post because of all the Acronyms. could someone translate for me? so first Nephillim = NJF (think lascannon plane), Dark Talon = DT (think bomber/rift cannon), StormRaven = SR (the original blood angel plane), Landspeeder vengeance = LSV (plasma landspeeder) Dark shroud = DS (the stealth generating LS) and so on... as to the second point, I would like to say this to all those who have NOT bought the model for the Nephillim. when GW releases a new model and your thinking about buying it, PROXY IT! you dont even have to take anyones opinion on its value. for goodness sake you have access to the rules and if you spend any time here or on dakka dakka, or watching/reading batreps you know what the other armies can bring to the battlefield. when you proxy something you are trying before buying. would you buy a car you havent test driven? no of course not. if the model cant do the role you assign for it then it is not worth it. if you just buy it cause you think it looks cool well so does modern art, and that stuff appreciates in value unlike most models (have you looked on ebay to find more expensive models, not ususally). When you buy a model that doesnt make sense from a rules perspective and doesn't doesn't perform, and then you find yourself looking for who to blame... a mirror is where you should be looking. Try it before you buy it. GW doesn't learn anything if you buy models that have poor rules behind them. point three, the dark talon can work as long as you have other sources of AA, becuase it cant perform that role. like brother dean says it is difficult to get its bomb assault combo to work. it may behoove you to get a stormtalon to support it since that can actually perform its role. but like i said dont take my word for it... proxy and try it out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 The consensus is : overpriced You pay the same price for 6 bikes with 2 special weapons that may profit from the standard of devastation.. Actually, the Talon is cheaper than 6 vanilla bikes. And is there any reason it's hurricane bolters can't take advantage of the SoD?Yup : the range of an SoD try to bring them within 6" of the flyer, you'll see it has to be more or less under the DT. It's still possible though but when you take into account the movement of the flyer, placing this combo during a game is technically very difficult... Fair enough - not actually tried it yet as my Dark Talon is still in the box .... Which tells you everything you need to know about how good it is! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 The consensus is : overpriced You pay the same price for 6 bikes with 2 special weapons that may profit from the standard of devastation.. Actually, the Talon is cheaper than 6 vanilla bikes. And is there any reason it's hurricane bolters can't take advantage of the SoD? Yup : the range of an SoD try to bring them within 6" of the flyer, you'll see it has to be more or less under the DT. It's still possible though but when you take into account the movement of the flyer, placing this combo during a game is technically very difficult... Fair enough - not actually tried it yet as my Dark Talon is still in the box .... Which tells you everything you need to know about how good it is! 18" main gun?!?!?!!? Sign me up! This thread made me relook at the Dark Talon to see if I missed something (since someone asked about it). I was too busy laughing at how bad the Rift Cannon was yesterday to respond. The reason no one talks about it is while its cheaper, the Nephilim does it job better. The only thing it has going for it is the bomb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 This comes from a separate thread that was getting off topic, but belongs here: I have played against the Valkryie, I use them (haven't for a while) and one guy I play usually takes at least 2. They are superior to the Neph in my opinion and again, their points and versatility are stellar. The Flyrant with twin devourers is a flyer killer by sheer weight of glances. You have to ground this beast ASAP. The ranking of flyers in that thread... I agree with most of it, except the intangible with the Ork flyers is the Waaaagh turn. Those things are cheap, and 'not bad' until the Ork player uses his waahg and then you kinda gotta hold your breath while all that happens and see what the destruction is. The Nephilim 'ranking' is something I can't do. It's simply a question of synergy in the army and a little bit of 'what have you done for me lately'. It needs to be FAQ'd into mediocrity before I'll take it again. I mean the Tau have so many options for AA, their flyers are really a side note for them. We don't have that luxury imho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278329-confession-i-really-like-the-dark-talon/#findComment-3421908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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