How Do RW/DW Armies Deal with Flyers?

[rpnightsend]

So I guess this could be considered a follow-up to my last post, where I was informed the Nephilim and Dark Talon aren't really worth their points. I like to run a pure RW/DW list, with no Green Wing. Is there any efficient way to deal with flyers in this list? I'm sure this has been discussed I'm just slow to catch up having just come back into the hobby.

[Mantras]

RW Blackknights. The twin linked plasma and a big squad, added with the ability to move to shoot at rear armour, should prove effective.

[elphilo]

RW Blackknights. The twin linked plasma and a big squad, added with the ability to move to shoot at rear armour, should prove effective.

Pretty much. Black Knights have become the all stars of our codex. I'm okay with it

[Aradiel]

black knights are a great option. i gunned down two stormravens in two turns with one squad of 6 black knights. they were the sole ravenwing squad i had in a otherwise pure footsloging deathwing army

rapid fire S7, AP2 on bikes om non nom

[Prot]

This is a good topic that might reveal some good tactics...

black knights are a great option. i gunned down two stormravens in two turns with one squad of 6 black knights. they were the sole ravenwing squad i had in a otherwise pure footsloging deathwing army

rapid fire S7, AP2 on bikes om non nom

Are you guys serious? I have yet to do this successfully. I typically run about 90% Ravenwing, and 10% Greenwing. I usually have one 5 man Black Knight squad in the army, with obviously one guy with the Grenade Launcher. So that leaves with 4 of these dudes with Plasma Talons.

I have yet to make it work on a flyer. The Blood Angel flyer was two games ago... I was stupid and didn't realize the rear av was 12! I tried to flank for a rear shot, then realized my mistake, and couldn't pen.

My early interations included the Lascannon Neph, then the Avenger, but neither were near reliable enough to take on true AA duty. Especially when you consider the bulk of the loadout is simply too low in strength (why are our missiles so inferior to B.A. missiles?)

I then tried getting so deep on my opponent that flyer would not have much of an effect. This actually does work against some opponents but some make it dicey to rush... like Orks/Nids.

Finally I kind of settled on a section of Greenwing, in a Bastion with a Quad. I can leave them alone while the bikes rush because they are pretty save inside. If I combat squad the tacticals, the lower level can be vacated to grab an objective.

It's not great.... and a little lame for a 6th ed codex, but I'm not sure what else to try with these guys? What is the verdict on AA Missile Devs?

[Tanhausen]

It's not great.... and a little lame for a 6th ed codex, but I'm not sure what else to try with these guys? What is the verdict on AA Missile Devs?

 

70 points for 5 bodies, +100 points for 4 AA missiles launchers + 70 points for 5 extra bodies that allow you both to combat squad and soak up some wounds = extremely expensive unit not worth it.

 

They will not perform vs AV12 fliers (which are the tough ones to bring down): you have a 5,5% of "penning" with each tube...so a 20% chance you get a pen...so if you play 5 turns, you should get one.

 

Its sad, but RWBK or big Typhoon/HB squads are the "best" tool we have to deal with fliers ATM.

[Aradiel]

my 6 man squad had two grenade launchers so i only had 4 plasma talons as well.

the game was vs black templars. the first downed stormraven had a dread and 9 marines + emp champ. scored 1 glancing and 1 penetrating, with a 5 as a result that went up to a 6. the stormraven went kaput, the dread ended imobilized, and only the emp champ survived. the second went down to a straight 6 from a single penetrating roll

there was some luck involved of course, but with S7 you need a 5 to glance AV12 and a 6 will penetrate, AP2 will add +1 to the damage result so you get a destroyed in a 5. the hardest part is to get a damned hit in the first place but the twin linked talons help a bit there. all in all they are superior to a dev squad with flakks.

despite the shorter range, they are fast enough to get in position for a shot, you can still fire a krak grenade (S6) and the AP2 makes them considerably more dangerous than a flakk missile

PS: (Why are our missiles so inferior to B.A. missiles?)

indeed, 36" S6, AP4 vs 72" S8, AP1. really GW, really?

i believe we should thank "he who shall not be named" for the ridiculous BA missile profile (amongst other things, but lets move along). but meh, whatever.

after seeng 2 of those missiles bounce off the chest of one deathwing terminator, followed by the offending gunship being slaped by the black knights i feel somewhat.... vindicated?...

[Brother dean]

Anybody ran a Mortis Contemptor?

[Polythemus]

I kinda feel that the mortis contemptor is the standard response but we need more viable alternative than just trying to include fw units. Three man dev squad with precience is actually just as expensive and no more effective than the flakk missle option. Honestly the only other real options i can see include allies. It is the achilles heel of our codex. You could try the prescienced las pred but you then become limited by the firing arc problem, compounded on the expence. The only other option is dont play the flyer game, eg close combat, constant movement.

[jeremy1391]

 

 

It's not great.... and a little lame for a 6th ed codex, but I'm not sure what else to try with these guys? What is the verdict on AA Missile Devs?

70 points for 5 bodies, +100 points for 4 AA missiles launchers + 70 points for 5 extra bodies that allow you both to combat squad and soak up some wounds = extremely expensive unit not worth it.

 

They will not perform vs AV12 fliers (which are the tough ones to bring down): you have a 5,5% of "penning" with each tube...so a 20% chance you get a pen...so if you play 5 turns, you should get one..

Your math and my math differ.... You have a 66% chance to hit with each and a 16.6% of penning with each so you get .42 a pens and 1.28 glances.... Unless I'm doing something wrong...

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

With C:CSM I've been using a squad of Flakk Havocs and an Icarus Lascannon ADL with satisfactory, if not devastating, results. I don't see why that wouldn't also work for DA. Have a small RW unit man the ADL, then get on their bikes and rush upfield when the ADL isn't needed anymore. 

 

You won't wipe out three Vendetta Squadrons, but you can deal with most army's airpower quite handily and if you can't, they'll have spent so much on flyers that there'll be a ground weakness, or several, to exploit. Last I checked, you need boots on objectives to win games.

[Onisuzume]

I kinda feel that the mortis contemptor is the standard response but we need more viable alternative than just trying to include fw units. Three man dev squad with precience is actually just as expensive and no more effective than the flakk missle option. Honestly the only other real options i can see include allies. It is the achilles heel of our codex.

More like poor design choice than achilles heel, imo.

Honestly, considering what the new C:SMurfs are supposedly getting for anti-air (two tanks along with flak devs and a flyer), we're getting the screwed over once more with our codex.

Either that, or GW intended for us to use FW for that purpose when they designed our 'dex (Mortis, Contemptor, Hyperios).

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Usually, I kill everything else and stay alive long enough to hold the objectives.

[rpnightsend]

This is a good topic that might reveal some good tactics...

 

Always good to hear from a mod ^.^

 

I would like to specify that I asked about RW/DW, not Greenwing as I stubbornly refuse to use them most of the time. That means Devastators, Quad Guns and Bastions are out.

The Black Knights sound good, and I just bought a box so I will consider tossing them in (usually I run bikes as troops/Termis for support but I could reverse it, I only have so many bike models).

The Mortis Contemptor, or even just a riflemen dreadnought also sound like a good idea (although in a list of RW/DW It'd be my only armor and thus open to a lot of anti-armor).

 

Thanks for the responses thus far though.

[Polythemus]

 

I kinda feel that the mortis contemptor is the standard response but we need more viable alternative than just trying to include fw units. Three man dev squad with precience is actually just as expensive and no more effective than the flakk missle option. Honestly the only other real options i can see include allies. It is the achilles heel of our codex.

More like poor design choice than achilles heel, imo.

Honestly, considering what the new C:SMurfs are supposedly getting for anti-air (two tanks along with flak devs and a flyer), we're getting the screwed over once more with our codex.

Either that, or GW intended for us to use FW for that purpose when they designed our 'dex (Mortis, Contemptor, Hyperios).

yeah point taken, i actually meant to say that any AA loadout for Devs, be it pure ML or Lascanons dont price well when you consider adding prescience. However scince GW sees the utility in giving effective AA to the C:SM codex. It is unlikely but feasible that they recognized their error regarding the Nephillim and will FAQ it. While this is by no means assured it is certain that they realize the need for AA in many forms.

 

if you really have a burning need to play a monobuild it seems that typhoons are going to be your best option.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Tanhausen

 

I am with Res Ipsa Loquitur on this one, I can't seem to duplicate your math.

Maybe you can tell me where I made a mistake.

All of these are pen vs AV12 flyer

 

10 Dev Squad with 4 ML with Flak

4/6 to hit * 1/6 to pen = 11.11%

Squad 4 shots = 44.44%

Cost = 240 points

 

6 RWBK (1 GL)

(1/6 to hit + (5/6*1/6 tl to hit)) * 1/6 to pen = 5.09%

Squad 5 shots = 25.46 %

Squad 10 shots = 50.92%

Cost = 252 points

 

5 TML Speeders

1/6 to hit * 2/6 to pen = 5.56%

Squad 10 shots = 55.56%

Cost = 375 points

 

If my math is right then the difference between the Typhoon squadron and the Dev Squad is effectively 1 flak missle shot... for 135 pts.

I think we can do better than 135 pts for a single flak missle, don't you?

 

Now if we match points with the Typhoon squadron what happens.

RWBK go to 9 bikes (8 plasma talons) for 3 pts more than the 5 Typhoon squadron.

8 shots = 40.74%

16 shots = 81.48%

 

Dev Squad can shift some of the extra guys off to a second Dev Squad and add 4 more ML and Flak.

2 x 6 man Dev Squad for 7 pts less than the 5 Typhoon squadron.

8 shots = 88.89%

 

This doesn't take into account the 5++ that they Heldrake has which maybe where our numbers differ, but that save would reduce each unit's effectiveness the same, so the closeness of this comparison is still valid.

Now vs a flame drake both the RWBK and the Dev squad could be dead before they get a chance to shoot.

And just about anything can mess up that Typhoon squadron.

 

And in closing, just for giggles and grins... I present the Nephilim.

TLLC = (4/6 to hit + (2/6*4/6 tl to hit)) * 3/6 to pen = 44.44% (88.89% for 2 Neph)

Avenger = 4/6 to hit * 1/6 to Glance * 5 shots = 55.56% (111.11% for 2 Neph) *Glance only

Missiles = 4/6 to hit * 1/6 to Glance * 2 shots = 22.22% (44.44% for 2 Neph) *Glance only

 

And 2 of them are 360 pts which is right in line with the other 3 units we are comparing.

(Results may vary)

[cypherkk]

I usually ignore flyers, but I typically deal with av 12 flyers which are just dead hard. Focus on the rest if their army, deal with flyers later.

[Master Sheol]

if the NJF was costed properly (140 to 160 points maximum) and had decent missile (s7 or s6 but with armourbane) and maybe the possibility to swap TLHB for a second TLLC it would be what it is in the BG a air superiority fighter...

 

But they present it as a fighter while is a mediocre fighter and average strafing unit (a role that RWSS can do better)...

 

To deal with flyers using pure RW the best choice is divination libby that gives rerolling to LST krak missiles to 8 or using a BK/RWCS squad...

With pure DW the best strategy is... ignore the flyers...

With mixed RW/DW army the strategy is... use LST with divination libby and/or BK/RWCS for the flyers and with DW deal with the gound targets...

 

The NJF is good as a display model on your shelf near to the LSV, the DT and Sammael on LS... waiting next codex (4/5 years from now minimum) or a RW supplement that fixes it (GW will never do such a supplement btw)... fixing complete entries through a FAQ is too much for GW so it will never happen...

[madman2980]

 I kinda like using the Neph, it has had good AA results for me, and statistically, is as good as a Flakk Dev squad with just the Lascannon. Throw in its missiles and the Neph actually outperforms all the other option for its current points cost. It may not be the best flyer out there by a long shot, but it is pretty good at what it does.

[Liberame]

Don't hurt me for saying this but if I can't use my mortis contemptors (love them to death, especially now that they are finally painted), then I use tau allies with broadsides to hold the rear while my ravenwing advance forward

[elphilo]

I kinda like using the Neph, it has had good AA results for me, and statistically, is as good as a Flakk Dev squad with just the Lascannon. Throw in its missiles and the Neph actually outperforms all the other option for its current points cost. It may not be the best flyer out there by a long shot, but it is pretty good at what it does.

You must have dice blessed by The Emperor Himself. Because every time I've ever taken one they have been a liability because their points could be spent on something else that would actually be useful.

Don't hurt me for saying this but if I can't use my mortis contemptors (love them to death, especially now that they are finally painted), then I use tau allies with broadsides to hold the rear while my ravenwing advance forward

Codex: Dark Angels from 3rd edition doesn't allow you to ally with the foul Xenos. So you're "technically" breaking a rule

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

This is a good topic that might reveal some good tactics...

 

Always good to hear from a mod ^.^

 

I would like to specify that I asked about RW/DW, not Greenwing as I stubbornly refuse to use them most of the time. That means Devastators, Quad Guns and Bastions are out.

 

It also means you're pretty much boned when it comes to AA. 

 

When you say 'pure' how 'pure' do you want to be? Could you take some allied SMs (Captain on Bike + Scoring Bike Squad) for Stormtalon/raven goodness and just paint the allies as DW/RW? You could use the Stormtalon/raven and just tell everyone that, yes it's an allied Stormtalon/raven points and rules-wise but in your army it's actually a Nephilim. 

 

The problem with that of course is that you're limited to one flyer. One Raven can work (though I never run a single 'Raven without at least one ADL), I doubt one Talon can. 

 

What about a Fortress of Redemption?

 

Why won't this board allow editing posts anymore?

 

I just thought, since a 'Talon and 'Raven occupy separate FOC slots for SM (IIRC), you can have one of each. 

 

By the way, DA's AA is poo not because they ant you to buy FW, but because they want DA players to buy the Fortress of Redemption...

[Dosjetka]

Why won't this board allow editing posts anymore?

Probably a problem on your end.

 

EDIT: Proof.

[Isiah]

Why won't this board allow editing posts anymore?

It does -- you need to be logged in. The 'Edit' button is a text link along the lower right hand side of the posting area. Any further issues let me know and I'll get an Admin to check it out.

 

Cheers

I

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Everytime I try to edit, my post turns into code and gobbledegook.