So...

[Firepower]

 

Space Wolf psykers are like everyone else, dude. Only fans think they are different for no real reasons besides some inherent need to be special. 

Need more clarification...

Yes, Rune Priests are psykers, they are the equivalent of a librarian just like a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest is the equivalent of an Apothecary. It is the treatment and viewpoint of the Wolves regarding them that differs, as is the manifestation of the psychic power, just like a Blood Angels librarian has unique powers like "Blood Boil" and "The Sanguine Sword" and a Grey Knight has "Dark Excommunication". No need to hate the Wolves for something every individual army apart from the generic main Codex does.

 

A shaman and a wizard are both magicians, shaman says his magic comes from nature and the wizard says his books. Everyone else says who cares its still magic...and then a Templar kills them both.

 

The perceived problem M2C is poking at is something lauded by some Space Wolf fans/players, in which they decide that the Rune Priests are correct in believing that their powers come from Fenris, and not the Warp.  That would mean they actually are different from every other sort of psycher in the galaxy.

 

The issue presented then is not how the powers ultimately manifest or are conjured, like in tossing bones, making a spear of blood red death, or scrying a tarot, but rather that every psycher steals power from the Warp to manifest those different sorts of powers, except Rune Priests, and as a result Rune Priests are cooler and not tainted like every other form of psycher because they aren't actually dabbling in the Warp.  

 

It's an irritating way of circumventing the (deliberately written) hypocrisy and irony of the Wolves persecuting the Thousand Sons, and continuing to openly use psychers after Nikaea.  

 

As an example, you have Fear To Tread, where the Blood Angels look at the coterie of Wolves' Rune Pirest and say "Hey, you know you're supposed to stop using psychers, right?" and teh Wolves respond "Never you mind, they aren't really psychers.  Their powers are totally different."  Some readers accept that at face value, and then adamantly argue that it is a truth.

[RazorDaemon]

 

The perceived problem M2C is poking at is something lauded by some Space Wolf fans/players, in which they decide that the Rune Priests are correct in believing that their powers come from Fenris, and not the Warp.  That would mean they actually are different from every other sort of psycher in the galaxy.

 

The issue presented then is not how the powers ultimately manifest or are conjured, like in tossing bones, making a spear of blood red death, or scrying a tarot, but rather that every psycher steals power from the Warp to manifest those different sorts of powers, except Rune Priests, and as a result Rune Priests are cooler and not tainted like every other form of psycher because they aren't actually dabbling in the Warp.  

 

It's an irritating way of circumventing the (deliberately written) hypocrisy and irony of the Wolves persecuting the Thousand Sons, and continuing to openly use psychers after Nikaea.  

 

As an example, you have Fear To Tread, where the Blood Angels look at the coterie of Wolves' Rune Pirest and say "Hey, you know you're supposed to stop using psychers, right?" and teh Wolves respond "Never you mind, they aren't really psychers.  Their powers are totally different."  Some readers accept that at face value, and then adamantly argue that it is a truth.

On that note, though Wolves are one of the Armies I play...the Rune Priest may be a shaman but psychic power is psychic power nonetheless, just like a normal vanilla librarian. On the note of chaos taint, Wolves have a natural immunity to mutation due to the Canis Helix, basically an abnormality in their gene-seed. This is what actually makes them wolf-like, and is a similar oddity in the gene-seed like a Blood Angels' Red Thirst or the Black Dragons' bone growths. Over time, or just sometimes a bad reaction during the Space Marine creation process, they become old school Wolf-man, known as having the Mark of the Wulfen.

 

Sorry this is dragged out but here is the final point: when exposed to the warp or influences of chaos that would normally cause mutations the Canis Helix is accelerated instead like a defense mechanism which staves off the chaos influence. Naturally such a mutation still caught the Inquisition's eye but the Wolves did in fact snarl and snap at them, then proceed to put axes into things and bite the mailmen of chaos in the name of the Emperor. Those who actually do think the Rune Priests really are different and really don't use psychic powers from the warp are either in denial or conceited, and there are conceited players in any army that the other players of said army don't like.

[Firepower]

Mutation is one thing that Wolves are resistant to, indeed. But they are subject to the risks of the Warp like everyone else- the possessed Rune Priest in Prospero Burns is the most obvious example. And as an extra note, he was 'changed' by the spirit that possessed him, at least temporarily.

But yeah, you are right, any given group is going to have unreasonable fanboys. Best leave it at that though, before we spark an inter-faction war on the forum

To lead things back to the thread topic- the only psychers that can be trusted on the battlefield are the Gray Knights, because they are both sanctioned by the Emperor, and to date still have not once been corrupted by Chaos. They are the only psychers with a flawless track record. Even then, the Templars probably keep a very close eye on them when sharing a battlefield...before the inevitable mind scrub afterward :P

[RazorDaemon]

Mutation is one thing that Wolves are resistant to, indeed. But they are subject to the risks of the Warp like everyone else- the possessed Rune Priest in Prospero Burns is the most obvious example. And as an extra note, he was 'changed' by the spirit that possessed him, at least temporarily.

But yeah, you are right, any given group is going to have unreasonable fanboys. Best leave it at that though, before we spark an inter-faction war on the forum

Peace will be won by the Templars and Wolves mutual love for smashing and slashing chaos...I have a few already tied up already awaiting their execution.

[Deadman Wade]

I hate space wolves - not only they still used psykers right after Nikaea, but their hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance is beyond anything in 40k. Thousand Sons were more loyal to the Emperor, than Wolves ever could be. And when Ahriman feed rune priest to daemons, I was like "hell yeah!".

Damn, I'll rather have IG penal legion as allies than wolves, even without runepriests.

[Firepower]

I hate space wolves - not only they still used psykers right after Nikaea, but their hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance is beyond anything in 40k. Thousand Sons were more loyal to the Emperor, than Wolves ever could be. And when Ahriman feed rune priest to daemons, I was like "hell yeah!".

Damn, I'll rather have IG penal legion as allies than wolves, even without runepriests.

 

I rather like the tragedy of Prospero's demise.  The definition of a tragedy, in my mind anyway, is a bad outcome when both sides are justified.  Magnus did indeed put the Imperium at risk with his actions and courted with powers he didn't understand, but his heart was in the right place.  The Wolves were right to be suspicious of the Sons and their studies, but were blinded by that suspicion when it came to seeing the virtue of the Sons' motives.  There are implications that the Wolves were manipulated into hating/fearing the Sons, but I haven't found the story where it is explained (assuming it is written anywhere yet).

 

The hypocrisy of the Rune Priests after Nikaea is something I haven't seen touched on for more than a brief recognition in any of the Horus Heresy novels yet, but then I haven't read them all.  The Emperor trusted the Wolves enough to use them as the punishment force and watchdogs for corruption, and he surely knew that Rune Priests were still among the Wolves' ranks, but I haven't seen anywhere that the approval by the Emperor is explicitly spelled out or explained.

 

But this really is becoming a wholly separate debate now.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Magical dogs and Sorcerer Mummies... great...

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o622/Marshal_Roujakis/witchduck_zps7f4b1ca1.jpg

All that matters to me guys... all that matters...

[Marshall Bretton]

i remember a massive thread somewhere in the sw forum dedicated to the theory that the canis helix prevents corruption by chaos by overclocking the canis helix and turning the marine into a wulfen, if i can find it i will post a link.

 

 

but back on topic, i will never field my templars beside a filthy psyker, with the possible exception of grey knights

 

now has anyone got a duck? :p

[Dark Scipio]

@Razor:So your Templars are:

1-Okay with certain Psykers.

2- Not Black? Suspicious......

'Okay' Psykers can be devided into 3 categories:

-Astropaths

-Navigators

-Dead ones.

I really would fit Brother Astartes Libarians espaccally from our mother Legion as their own category.

[Dark Scipio]

I hate space wolves - not only they still used psykers right after Nikaea, but their hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance is beyond anything in 40k. Thousand Sons were more loyal to the Emperor, than Wolves ever could be. And when Ahriman feed rune priest to daemons, I was like "hell yeah!".

Damn, I'll rather have IG penal legion as allies than wolves, even without runepriests.

 

Th Wolves are actually more loyal than the Thousand Sons, however both were very loyal. However the Sons were a bit too proud and that lead to their fall.

 

Magnus should have just surrendred himself to Russ and be brought to Terra instead of fighting. That would have been the loayal act.

[Deadman Wade]

Th Wolves are actually more loyal than the Thousand Sons, however both were very loyal. However the Sons were a bit too proud and that lead to their fall.

Magnus should have just surrendred himself to Russ and be brought to Terra instead of fighting. That would have been the loayal act.

It's easy to be loyal, when you can do whatever you want, including disobeying Emperor's orders without any consequences (yeah, Rune Priests). And it's not that easy when some arrogant ignorant hypocrites attacks your homeworld, claim that you're a traitor and sorcerer, while casting psychic powers and unleashing disfigured mutants IMO Inquisition missed a perfect opportunity of wiping them after first armageddon war.

Sigismund should have surrendered to Guilliman and his codex organisation then.

[Marshall Bretton]

actually magnus was surrendering, he told his legion to stand down and accept their fate. It was arhiman who ordered them to defend themselves and caused the war

 

as a wolf player i would say the wolves are amongst the most loyal servants of the emperor (not the imperium) and it seems the wulfen are actually part of the emperors design for the wolves.

the inquisition tried to kill the wolves after armageddon, and it really didn't work out well for them, even with the help of the grey knights, so i doubt they would try that again.

i am a big fan of guilliman and think the codex was the right call at the time, but i do think there needs to be some chapters who stand outside it. and a few legions of marines would really help the imperium right about now.

 

anyway, massive off topic over, it will really bug me if the templars can ally with librarians, as it goes against some of the longest standing fluff (as far as im aware)

[Vincent val Munshin]

Since this thread started up, I've been curious about just how deep the Templar hatred of Librarians goes. I'm starting to think they just hate them if they don't have Dorn's blood. For instance, in Blood and Fire, Grimaldus completely ignores the fact that the Celestial Lions use Librarians. Sure, maybe he didn't understand what a Spiritwalker was, but it seems pretty obvious.

 

Just to throw up a hypothetical, say that Templar fleet comes across an Imperial Fist company under a massive assault. While moving into assist, they discover that the company is making use of a Librarian. Do they just leave the Fist's to die, or do they help?

[Raeven]

 

I hate space wolves - not only they still used psykers right after Nikaea, but their hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance is beyond anything in 40k. Thousand Sons were more loyal to the Emperor, than Wolves ever could be. And when Ahriman feed rune priest to daemons, I was like "hell yeah!".

Damn, I'll rather have IG penal legion as allies than wolves, even without runepriests.

 

I rather like the tragedy of Prospero's demise.  The definition of a tragedy, in my mind anyway, is a bad outcome when both sides are justified.  Magnus did indeed put the Imperium at risk with his actions and courted with powers he didn't understand, but his heart was in the right place.  The Wolves were right to be suspicious of the Sons and their studies, but were blinded by that suspicion when it came to seeing the virtue of the Sons' motives.  There are implications that the Wolves were manipulated into hating/fearing the Sons, but I haven't found the story where it is explained (assuming it is written anywhere yet).

 

The hypocrisy of the Rune Priests after Nikaea is something I haven't seen touched on for more than a brief recognition in any of the Horus Heresy novels yet, but then I haven't read them all.  The Emperor trusted the Wolves enough to use them as the punishment force and watchdogs for corruption, and he surely knew that Rune Priests were still among the Wolves' ranks, but I haven't seen anywhere that the approval by the Emperor is explicitly spelled out or explained.

 

But this really is becoming a wholly separate debate now.

Just to answer this, Horus himself claimed responsibility for setting the dogs on the Thousand Suns.  No great details, but it was within one of the first three books.

[Deadman Wade]

The will of the Emperor was clear - no using psykers aside from navigators and astropaths. Therefore, anyone who uses them violates Emperor's orders and must be purged. Not to mention that psykers are monkeys with grenades.

If it's true that BT now can ally with psykers, then it's obviously not like this, probably it's something like "we don't use them, but if you want to take them with us to battle, mr.Ultramarine, sure, no problems".

[d3m01iti0n]

GW doesnt care about our fluff.  There's nothing between the lines really.

[Acebaur]

Wait a joke thread turned into a serious discussion(in the Black Templar forum!) on various chapters witches and the coucil of Nikea? I must be a the nexus of the Universe.

[Marshall Bretton]

burning of witches is never a joke!!! :p

[RazorDaemon]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

 

@Gauis Maximus: I'm not sure about another thread going over the Canis Helix other than my own mentioning of it earlier in this one. All of my info I got directly from Lexicanum and the Space Wolves Codex itself.

 

As far as the Wolves use of psykers after Nikea, yes they did while professing their belief that their Rune Priests were different and it didn't apply to them (also discussed earlier in this thread, they really aren't different its just the Wolves themselves and really intense, insular only-Wolves players believe so). The Emperor did know this, they made it no secret, he only tolerated their stubbornness because their loyalty was just as great. They quite literally are as loyal as the most loyal dog ever to have lived, its in their gene-seed.

[Deadman Wade]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

As far as the Wolves use of psykers after Nikea, yes they did while professing their belief that their Rune Priests were different and it didn't apply to them (also discussed earlier in this thread, they really aren't different its just the Wolves themselves and really intense, insular only-Wolves players believe so). The Emperor did know this, they made it no secret, he only tolerated their stubbornness because their loyalty was just as great. They quite literally are as loyal as the most loyal dog ever to have lived, its in their gene-seed.

Nope, wolf was bitten by me :D I dislike Space Wolves more than any faction in 40k. Their codex fluff, books and rules are terrible, "it doesn't matter if they are ignorant, arrogant mutant heretics, they can disobey Emperor's orders, cause they look like vikings and they drink beer". I was cheering for the Inquisition in "Emperor's gift", btw :D

[RazorDaemon]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

As far as the Wolves use of psykers after Nikea, yes they did while professing their belief that their Rune Priests were different and it didn't apply to them (also discussed earlier in this thread, they really aren't different its just the Wolves themselves and really intense, insular only-Wolves players believe so). The Emperor did know this, they made it no secret, he only tolerated their stubbornness because their loyalty was just as great. They quite literally are as loyal as the most loyal dog ever to have lived, its in their gene-seed.

Nope, wolf was bitten by me I dislike Space Wolves more than any faction in 40k. Their codex fluff, books and rules are terrible, "it doesn't matter if they are ignorant, arrogant mutant heretics, they can disobey Emperor's orders, cause they look like vikings and they drink beer". I was cheering for the Inquisition in "Emperor's gift", btw

You dislike them because you think their Codex is terrible and you had a bad aftertaste after biting one? Well, that seems silly. I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

Going back to being a little more serious, I like their fluff, partially because I do have Norse ancestry and I like History, which is also a reason I like the Black Templars though I am unaware if I ever had an ancestor in the Knights Templar. I do know there is no evidence to even hint that I am related to a witch, past or present We all weigh considerably more than a duck.

[Firepower]

I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

...yes. Yes they are.

On a nitpicky note, the Salamanders used to just be black in the African bloodline sense. Somewhere along the line someone at GW decided to make them human charcoal instead. No idea why.

[Deadman Wade]

You dislike them because you think their Codex is terrible and you had a bad aftertaste after biting one? Well, that seems silly. I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

I dislike their codex, their books, their rules, each new book makes them even more disgusting for me. And while all those chapters you mention have some form of mutation, none of them have rabid werewolfs, who forget how to use weapons, even Death Company.

That makes them ideal opponent for my CSM, there's nothing better than to cut them down with chainaxes :D

[RazorDaemon]

You dislike them because you think their Codex is terrible and you had a bad aftertaste after biting one? Well, that seems silly. I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

I dislike their codex, their books, their rules, each new book makes them even more disgusting for me. And while all those chapters you mention have some form of mutation, none of them have rabid werewolfs, who forget how to use weapons, even Death Company.

That makes them ideal opponent for my CSM, there's nothing better than to cut them down with chainaxes

They still can use weapons, it is only in CC that they use their new claws and/or teeth because it is more effective and is D6+1 with Rending. I also recall mentioning earlier that each army has its die-hard, uncompromising fanatics...Hi. (Not meant to be an insult, sorry if it seems like that)

[Lysere]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

As far as the Wolves use of psykers after Nikea, yes they did while professing their belief that their Rune Priests were different and it didn't apply to them (also discussed earlier in this thread, they really aren't different its just the Wolves themselves and really intense, insular only-Wolves players believe so). The Emperor did know this, they made it no secret, he only tolerated their stubbornness because their loyalty was just as great. They quite literally are as loyal as the most loyal dog ever to have lived, its in their gene-seed.

Nope, wolf was bitten by me I dislike Space Wolves more than any faction in 40k. Their codex fluff, books and rules are terrible, "it doesn't matter if they are ignorant, arrogant mutant heretics, they can disobey Emperor's orders, cause they look like vikings and they drink beer". I was cheering for the Inquisition in "Emperor's gift", btw

You dislike them because you think their Codex is terrible and you had a bad aftertaste after biting one? Well, that seems silly. I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

Going back to being a little more serious, I like their fluff, partially because I do have Norse ancestry and I like History, which is also a reason I like the Black Templars though I am unaware if I ever had an ancestor in the Knights Templar. I do know there is no evidence to even hint that I am related to a witch, past or present We all weigh considerably more than a duck.

Having historical ties always makes an army more fun. I myself have multiple family ties into the Templars, which is ironic because my family is also tied to the king responsible for them disbanding. That would make for an awkward family reunion.

Also there are no joke threads for Black Templar so long as they involve either Crusading, Burning Witches, or Smashing Enemies of Mankind in the Face.