So...

[RazorDaemon]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

As far as the Wolves use of psykers after Nikea, yes they did while professing their belief that their Rune Priests were different and it didn't apply to them (also discussed earlier in this thread, they really aren't different its just the Wolves themselves and really intense, insular only-Wolves players believe so). The Emperor did know this, they made it no secret, he only tolerated their stubbornness because their loyalty was just as great. They quite literally are as loyal as the most loyal dog ever to have lived, its in their gene-seed.

Nope, wolf was bitten by me I dislike Space Wolves more than any faction in 40k. Their codex fluff, books and rules are terrible, "it doesn't matter if they are ignorant, arrogant mutant heretics, they can disobey Emperor's orders, cause they look like vikings and they drink beer". I was cheering for the Inquisition in "Emperor's gift", btw

You dislike them because you think their Codex is terrible and you had a bad aftertaste after biting one? Well, that seems silly. I'm also going to say if you think they're mutant heretics, then you must think Black Dragons are mutant heretics with their odd bone mutation/growths, the Salamanders because of their skin (often misconceived as black as we call those of African decent, but they actually mean black like jet black or Chaos Black paint) and red eyes, or the Blood Angels Red Thirst making them vampires, the Death Spectres being albino, and several other ones....hmm? Hmmmmm? HMMMMMMMMM?

Going back to being a little more serious, I like their fluff, partially because I do have Norse ancestry and I like History, which is also a reason I like the Black Templars though I am unaware if I ever had an ancestor in the Knights Templar. I do know there is no evidence to even hint that I am related to a witch, past or present We all weigh considerably more than a duck.

Having historical ties always makes an army more fun. I myself have multiple family ties into the Templars, which is ironic because my family is also tied to the king responsible for them disbanding. That would make for an awkward family reunion.

Also there are no joke threads for Black Templar so long as they involve either Crusading, Burning Witches, or Smashing Enemies of Mankind in the Face.

No Templar joke threads involving those? But...what happens when a Templar gets cold? He adds another witch to the fire

[hart3856]

Vincent brought up a good point above that has not been really answered. As someone building an IF army now, of course minus filthy psykers, I am also interested in the answer but not educated enough in IF lore as I am still trying to track down IF books, how our relationship as Templars is with our IF gene seed fathers?

 

My guess is yes we would help an IF group under assault even with a librarian leading them and I will use the Grimy example from above with the Celstial Lions?!? But my brothers will need to weigh in.

 

As for SW, smurfs, or any other ally/team army that fields psykers, sans GK, I have a long and distinguished track record of on the table smacking them, even at inopportune times. My fellow SM players are used to it and realize I play to the fluff and as such if I get near one I will pop shot them. They learned years ago to stay away.

 

It's the players and authors that drive the fluff, GW doesn't care as long as they get to roll in our $$ at the end of the day :)

[Andhil]

Since this thread started up, I've been curious about just how deep the Templar hatred of Librarians goes. I'm starting to think they just hate them if they don't have Dorn's blood. For instance, in Blood and Fire, Grimaldus completely ignores the fact that the Celestial Lions use Librarians. Sure, maybe he didn't understand what a Spiritwalker was, but it seems pretty obvious.

 

Just to throw up a hypothetical, say that Templar fleet comes across an Imperial Fist company under a massive assault. While moving into assist, they discover that the company is making use of a Librarian. Do they just leave the Fist's to die, or do they help?

 

I think the Templars would still aid the Fists. Their hatred of Psykers may run deep, but never deep enough to let their fellow Sons of Dorn die. Afterwards they will offcourse mention the possibility that the only reason the IF's got into that situation to begin with, was by using a witch. My personal opinion on the matter is that the BT's wouldn't mind their Parent Chapter/ Sons of Dorn using Librarians, as long as they get no say in the tactics and other battle related stuff.

ie; "Right, the Templars will charge along the right flank, My Fists will hold the center, and Gandalf McWitch will take a squad and hold the left, tossing fireballs. Any questions? Good."

-Fisty McChaptermaster

 

I don't have any ties to the Templars (that I know off.) but living in Flanders, Belgium has influenced my Guard army. They've taken a more WW1-ish style lately. The Aegis only helped there. Porta-trench!

 

My only problem with the Wolves are the wolf parts. I absolutely love the Viking theme in the SW's, but I really don't like the Wolf stuff. If they had been Space Vikings, instead of descendants of Space Vikings who mated with Wolves, I could be playing those, but hey, Space Crusaders win that contest everytime!

[RazorDaemon]

Vincent brought up a good point above that has not been really answered. As someone building an IF army now, of course minus filthy psykers, I am also interested in the answer but not educated enough in IF lore as I am still trying to track down IF books, how our relationship as Templars is with our IF gene seed fathers?

My guess is yes we would help an IF group under assault even with a librarian leading them and I will use the Grimy example from above with the Celstial Lions?!? But my brothers will need to weigh in.

As for SW, smurfs, or any other ally/team army that fields psykers, sans GK, I have a long and distinguished track record of on the table smacking them, even at inopportune times. My fellow SM players are used to it and realize I play to the fluff and as such if I get near one I will pop shot them. They learned years ago to stay away.

It's the players and authors that drive the fluff, GW doesn't care as long as they get to roll in our $$ at the end of the day

I just pictured some ultrasmurf army calling for BT aide, the BT coming in, shooting the librarian in the head, then point to the army the Ultrasmurfs are fighting and ask "Did you want our help against them, too?"

[Vincent val Munshin]

RazorDaemon, I want that to be canon.

 

Anyhow, that's my belief as well. Regardless of whether or not a librarian was leading another Dornish force, I think the Templar would help. But the rule that doesn't allow them to ally with psykers implies they would be willing hang any other Imperial force out to dry... then probably just annihilate whatever is left.

[Lysere]

Personally I feel psykers would be more of a tool. We don't use it because we see that the tool only causes more problems and we would rather deal with the issue most would use said tool for in a different way, like with a demolisher cannon or good old fashioned zeal. We won't hate our brothers for using such a tool, but we won't acknowledge a librarian as a brother.

 

It reminds me of the Blood angel omnibus books. In a few parts there are librarians present, and even though they were battle brothers the others all viewed them with suspicion. They were brothers in battle, but everyone kinda kept their distance when they could. We would take that a step further and openly disapprove of them, considering them lesser beings than one who does not mess with the warp. After all they are corrupting the purity that is our Gene-Seed by attempting to control the warp energies. Still we would not turn away from our brothers just because their faith in the Emperor isn't as strong or as pure as our own. If they need librarians to fight back against the forces of chaos than fine, but we won't resort to such actions.

[Raeven]

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

 

Honestly, in my case, I dislike Space Wolves because of the type of players they seem to attract. 

[RazorDaemon]

 

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

 

Honestly, in my case, I dislike Space Wolves because of the type of players they seem to attract. 

I can see that, if I noticed a pattern with certain players and a certain army I would feel the same. If it helps any, I am a Space Wolves player (as well as Black Templars, Grey Knights and others) who is hopefully not one of those types you hate...I do say that Rune Priests are in fact psykers

[Grey Mage]

Space Wolf psykers are like everyone else, dude. Only fans think they are different for no real reasons besides some inherent need to be special. 

Was that directed at me old friend?

 

Ive never said otherwise. Ive just made a distinction between librarians and sorcerors- something the HH books have outright destroyed but older fluff supported. It makes me sad to know I have to power up my lightning claw when you come over for tea now.

 

 

 

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

 

Honestly, in my case, I dislike Space Wolves because of the type of players they seem to attract. 

 

Funny, most of my good 40k friends are either DA or Dornish. Heavy on the Dornish.

[Firepower]

I'd like to know what line between Sorcerors and Librarians you are referring to, Grey Mage.  I've been a happy little fluff monger since 2nd Edition, but I can't recall a very clear distinction between the two.  But then I'm not the encyclopedia that M2C and some other folks are.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Space Wolf psykers are like everyone else, dude. Only fans think they are different for no real reasons besides some inherent need to be special.

Was that directed at me old friend?

 

Ive never said otherwise. Ive just made a distinction between librarians and sorcerors- something the HH books have outright destroyed but older fluff supported. It makes me sad to know I have to power up my lightning claw when you come over for tea now.

 

 

 

@Deadman: I'm sensing a lot of hate there, were you bitten by a Space Wolf when you were young or in a previous life?

Honestly, in my case, I dislike Space Wolves because of the type of players they seem to attract.

Funny, most of my good 40k friends are either DA or Dornish. Heavy on the Dornish.

No not at all. Not to anybody here in particular. Just the subfaction of SW fans utterly convinced fenris magic is different.

[Noctus Cornix]

And Space Wolf fans that are utterly convinced they're the bees knees and no one can possibly stand to contest them.

[Grey Mage]

I'd like to know what line between Sorcerors and Librarians you are referring to, Grey Mage.  I've been a happy little fluff monger since 2nd Edition, but I can't recall a very clear distinction between the two.  But then I'm not the encyclopedia that M2C and some other folks are.

Sorcerors channeled psychic power through bindings and rituals- made a science out of it if you will. These rituals and bindings often used elements of the warp itself, particularly including the entities therein. Example: How the Thousand Sons used familiars and 'warp science'.

 

A Librarian on the other hand channels power directly through themselves- without the aid of eldritch pacts or daemonic allies. This is why they are bound to the emperor- as all sanctioned psykers are- because otherwise the sheer effort of channeling it without the aid of the warps 'tender affections' quickly burns you out. They do use some 'rituals' but these are mnemonic devices designs to lock and unlock parts of their mind, and is part of a rigid control given to them by that binding. Example: Astropath Quires.

 

This is why sorcerors tend to be stronger than librarians, while Librarians have less problems with things like say... random mutation, or being possessed by a daemonic entity.

 

Edit: Now, this does give one a very simple way that Rune Priests are a bit different than most librarians- they use runes to open and close those natural channels, wich works kind of like a fuse, protecting them.... in a way similar to how farseers work...... Though not unlike how other chapters liturgies etc would work. The difference is there, but in practical application its such a subtle change it wouldnt affect how they are on the table top, but does explain the difference between Rune Priests and C:SM librarians powers perhaps. It certainly wouldnt make them stronger, and the Psychic Hood is likely just as good at keeping a Psyker 'safe' from the warp.

 

And Space Wolf fans that are utterly convinced they're the bees knees and no one can possibly stand to contest them.

 

We call them Bloodclaws. Alot of them moved in since the new codex, but dont worry- soon theyll be GHs as they find their power level waning. Many will die- see abandoning the army you silly power gamer- in the process, but thems the breaks.

[Noctus Cornix]

Funny because I generally see it in all the older Space Wolves players. The newer ones aren't nearly as bad.

[Honda]

Why are we discussing witches with someone who's icon is a witch?

[Grey Mage]

Huh, in my experience the more exprienced brothers tend to joke around more.... *shrugs* Different areas I suppose.

@Honda. Actually, thats a giantess. Easy mistake to make though- wich is why Im here, Im a specialist.

[Honda]

If it glows and has "elvey" hair, then it's a witch. Besides it's forehead is wrinkled and that's definitely the sign of a witch.

 

Burn them all and let the Emperor sort out the ashes.

[Grey Mage]

*Summons a ball of fire* Sure, but we should first see where he sorts you to, since its your bright idea. If he approves Im sure your spirit will be sent back to tell us.

 

*lights his pipe* If you like that is.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

(Admantium Will 5+ DTW.... passes... ) anyway since the forum survived that Fireball, and I'm still using the 4th Ed. Dex... then might as well use the +2S I5 Black Sword on you...

 

The question on wether your a witch or not is answered simply... we must use the large scales...

 

Seriously though, the idea of the Space Wolves using Psychic powers in the 1st place is just plain unVikingly? I mean why enhance yourself through the use of Sorcery when Vikings themselves believe that a man must be tested by the strength of his mettle?

 

Templars allow Astropaths and Navigators, because they are necessary, librarians and battle-psychers in general are not...

[Grey Mage]

Well 1) Because theyre not exactly vikings, its just a theme. 2) Seidr was actually a large part of the religion.

And dont forget the big E never outlawed Astropath and Navigators. He was quite fond of navigators as I recall, they got his crusades to war.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Well 1) Because theyre not exactly vikings, its just a theme. 2) Seidr was actually a large part of the religion.

 

And dont forget the big E never outlawed Astropath and Navigators. He was quite fond of navigators as I recall, they got his crusades to war.

Ok true, Space Wolves =/= Vikings, but still has Leman Russ ever enhanced himself with the use of Psychic Powers? has he ever casted a rune? has he ever called upon the power of Nature itself to cast down his foes? If Space Wolves are so intent on only doing what Leman Russ could do, hence barring Fliers because Leman Russ never flied a plane, then why are they even considering the use of Psychic abilities to enhance themselves?

Sure the Primarchs have a sense, even a tingle of Psychic powers, but did Russ ever openly use it? i think not...

 

And if anyone says, its because they're specialist and some armies take specialist that deviate from their original teachings, then tell me why SW have no Stormravens and Stormtalons...

[Grey Mage]

 

Well 1) Because theyre not exactly vikings, its just a theme. 2) Seidr was actually a large part of the religion.

 

And dont forget the big E never outlawed Astropath and Navigators. He was quite fond of navigators as I recall, they got his crusades to war.

Ok true, Space Wolves =/= Vikings, but still has Leman Russ ever enhanced himself with the use of Psychic Powers? has he ever casted a rune? has he ever called upon the power of Nature itself to cast down his foes? If Space Wolves are so intent on only doing what Leman Russ could do, hence barring Fliers because Leman Russ never flied a plane, then why are they even considering the use of Psychic abilities to enhance themselves?

Sure the Primarchs have a sense, even a tingle of Psychic powers, but did Russ ever openly use it? i think not...

 

And if anyone says, its because they're specialist and some armies take specialist that deviate from their original teachings, then tell me why SW have no Stormravens and Stormtalons...

Actually Russ, like all the Primarchs, was a navigator- its thought that this is perhaps how the 13nth company is moving through the warp... led by our lost father.

 

Every Primarch was a psyker. Every one of them, as you noted. That much we do know. How much of it they used is an entirely different matter. Russ hasnt shown any overt psionic powers- but then again, hes barely shown up in the HH novels and all other sources are apocryphal in nature really. As for the power of nature... he did conquer the continent of Asaheim after men killed his adopted mother- a Wolf of incredible intelligence and about the size of a Rhino- along with a small army of Fenrisian Wolves. Maybe it was pheromones, maybe he 'spoke' to them.

 

And SWs DO use flyers. Theyre called Thunderhawks, and we enjoy the heck out of them. We also use Stormeagles and Caestus Rams. We dont have chickens and talons because the Administratum isnt as friendly with us as it is with you all. That single line about jump packs was an off hand comment made by a Wolf Lord who didnt, himself, enjoy it- seeing as our WLs, Priests, and WGs all have the use of Jump packs.

 

What SWs wont do under most circumstances is teleport. That aversion is something the sons of Dorn should completely understand.

[Firepower]

Edit: Now, this does give one a very simple way that Rune Priests are a bit different than most librarians- they use runes to open and close those natural channels, wich works kind of like a fuse, protecting them.... in a way similar to how farseers work...... Though not unlike how other chapters liturgies etc would work. The difference is there, but in practical application its such a subtle change it wouldnt affect how they are on the table top, but does explain the difference between Rune Priests and C:SM librarians powers perhaps. It certainly wouldnt make them stronger, and the Psychic Hood is likely just as good at keeping a Psyker 'safe' from the warp.

See, this is what I disagree with, although it is a much milder version of the really reprehensible interpretation of Rune Priests.

Using runes to channel powers is no different than tossing bones, reading a tarot, using specially developed chants, focusing on an icon or fetish, etc. Or at least there is no reason to believe that the runes are special in comparison to all those other tools which are used by many, many other Chapters. The only difference is that they are much more elaborated upon and focused upon as a fluff device, whereas general Librarians are...well, generalized. If you spent some time developing the fluff for Stormseers, which I see as almost analogous to Rune Priests, you would probably get much the same result- shamanic styled fetishes and devices for performing what is ultimately exactly the same as what every other psycher does.

It's not to say the Runes don't work, but rather that every other Librarius has different tools which perform the exact same function- creating focus, developing mental bulwarks and barriers, creating 'fuses,' etc.

Actually...upon re-reading your post, we're saying pretty much the exact same thing. Rune Priests are just like Librarians, but their tools look different, despite performing the exact same functions. I will however leave everything I wrote up to this point to demonstrate the dangers of jumping the gun and not listening/reading properly

[Grey Mage]

Yes- well I was guessing that **maybe** their tools are more effective, because theyre brought up more often, but this isnt necessarily the case as you noted. Im more curious to note if you grok the librarian sorceror differences?

[Firepower]

I can see the difference between the two, but I think it is so thin that erasing it is sort of moot.  

 

"I use tools like a Hood and a Staff to channel Warp powers"  Verdict: Librarian

 

"I use magical symbols like runes to channel Warp powers" Verdict: Librarian

 

"I use magical symbols to channel Warp powers" Verdict...kinda Sorcerer?  Depends on the symbols, and even then it's iffy.

 

"I use demons" Verdict: Sorcerer.

 

Really, I see that there is a line, but I believe it is (and should be) so blurry that some folks, like Templars and the Thousand Sons, would decide that it practically doesn't exist.  The Thousand Sons in particular demonstrate the value of that blurriness- one of the reasons that Librarians are so dangerous is the indefinite border between Librarian and Sorcerer.