So...

[Algesan]

 

On the Wolves/Templar issue, the generic backstory or plot seed for the Wolves are Vikings and the Templars feudal knightly Orders.  Given that the feudal system evolved from Viking customs, Black Templars are actually "closer" to the Wolves in outlook and style than they are to most of the other Marine groups.

 

Wat. Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller =/= Vikings/Norse. Feudalism spread quickly as a defense against Viking raids in the wake of the crumbling Roman Empire, leaving many disjointed nations weakened that needed military help. Feudalism did NOT evolve in any way from Norse social life, as a matter of fact the Norse were more advanced and modern at that time than Feudal Europe, in a social sense not technological.

 

Actually, strong roots there, but that is a lot longer essay than a rabbit trail on a derailed thread about fluff for an army faction that appears to have ceased to exist in game terms.  Hint: places conquered by Vikings tend to have the strongest feudal system.

 

That's a hell of a stretch. Saying that there is a historical link between the two historical groups which serve as the seed for two chapters' fluff is like the old Spaceballs "I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."

 

Templars take their name form the historical group, but their actual design/personality resembles several drastically different historical orders. And even then, it's a pointless and misleading exercise to use historical examples in analogies to the fiction of 40k.

Sure, it's a stretch, but no worse than most of the ones in the 40k universe.  The thing is, the original un-smurfed fluff, by using the plot seeds and trying to rework details & analogies back into the un-smurfed fluff, GW has fed the comparison. True, the knightly orders were a more evolved and skewed form of the core feudal system, but the roots of it can be traced.   What else is there for linkage? 

 

Smurfs?  Not until now.

Blood Angels?  Oh, sparkly mutants fascinated with blood?  No, not really.

Dark Angels?  Okay, you might have a point here, although they fit more into the conspiracy theory variant than the kill 'em all and let the Emperor sort them out variant.

 

Well, the new fluff is in...

 

Templars revere astropaths because they're in direct contact with the Emperor... Ok I can see that.

 

But now, instead of us h ating all psykers, we only hate ROGUE psykers, so Librarians of all chapters are A-OK.  And, if Black Templars COULD have psykers among them, they'd accept them gladly....?  Hm.  So apparently the fluff has changed into we don't have Librarians because it's not in the genes anymore.

 

I kind of like this.  Makes things a lot smoother and more logical.  And I can use my Blood Ravens (*cough*Thousand Sons Successors*cough*) alongside my Templars now as a detatchment, WITH a Librarian.  This is a good thing.

 

Is it a bit of a retcon?  Yes, yes it is.  But it's a retcon I can live with.  What disturbs me more is that there's a strong implication that we're back down to 1,000 man chapter size, unless I Missed it somewhere...

 

Welcome to Smurfdom.  So, if you are reading from the new official Codex:Space Marines fluff about Black Templars, then this sub-forum mght as well be closed.  You aren't talking about a minor retcon, you are talking about a Borg-style assimilation of the last group of Marines true to the Emperor's Nikea decree into the political trickery of Smurfdom.

 

GW has gone from Squatting, to Updating By WD Crapdex, to Rolling Them Up Into Another Codex.

 

It is a sad day to be a Black Templar when it all goes away.

[Acebaur]

Well, the new fluff is in...

 

Templars revere astropaths because they're in direct contact with the Emperor... Ok I can see that.

 

But now, instead of us h ating all psykers, we only hate ROGUE psykers, so Librarians of all chapters are A-OK.  And, if Black Templars COULD have psykers among them, they'd accept them gladly....?  Hm.  So apparently the fluff has changed into we don't have Librarians because it's not in the genes anymore.

 

I kind of like this.  Makes things a lot smoother and more logical.  And I can use my Blood Ravens (*cough*Thousand Sons Successors*cough*) alongside my Templars now as a detatchment, WITH a Librarian.  This is a good thing.

 

Is it a bit of a retcon?  Yes, yes it is.  But it's a retcon I can live with.  What disturbs me more is that there's a strong implication that we're back down to 1,000 man chapter size, unless I Missed it somewhere...

 

There is no implication to me that we are back down to 1,000 men, in fact it says nothing of our size at all except that we are spread thin throughout the galaxy which was true anyway because when you have a whole galaxy to purge, 6K guys is pretty thin ;)

[tvih]

So apparently the fluff has changed into we don't have Librarians because it's not in the genes anymore.

Of course it's not in the genes anymore. Those genes were purged with sword and fire! Filthy witch genes.

[Crusader Bob]

Sheesh...... the news are disturbing, but i don't really care.

I'm so against librarians and psykers that even my Blood Angels lists are devoid of them. I don't see that changing no matter what strange fluff new books try to feed me.

[ArcticFox]

There is no implication to me that we are back down to 1,000 men, in fact it says nothing of our size at all except that we are spread thin throughout the galaxy which was true anyway because when you have a whole galaxy to purge, 6K guys is pretty thin

Thing is, (and Imay be wrong to go at it this way) since the new codex doesn't explicitly state we have more than 1,000, it means that we are the same as other chapters in that book, and they are all said to have 1,000 marines.

Now, if fluff from the 4th ed Codex is still considered valid fluff, then awesome... I like the idea of being the only truly Legion strength chapter. It just seems like that's n ot the most "precise" way to go.

[Honda]

 

But now, instead of us h ating all psykers, we only hate ROGUE psykers, so Librarians of all chapters are A-OK.

 

No, they're not A-OK. They're candles and we're the match.

 

GW can retcon all they want, WE own our history. WE make our history. WE, the Fans. WE remember. WE go all Farenheit 451 on them. They burn our history, WE switch to handing down the legends and histories by oral tradition, something we can learn from the Wolves.

 

They don't make the history, WE DO.

 

Dorn would demand nothing less from us.

 

WE are the captains of our destiny. They want our history? Molon labe ("come and take them").

 

We yield to no one.

[ArcticFox]

(The following is in character.  If it offends, then you take yourself way to seriously, friends.)

 

Since when do Black Templars value weakness?

 

Since when do Black Templars whine about change?

 

Since when do Black Templars ignore the Emperor?

 

Brothers, we have been handed an opportunity to prosecute our war agaijst the enemies of the Emperor on an entirely new level.  Would you spit on it?   Are you now the one who decides that NOT serving the Emperor to the very maximum we possibly can is  good enough?  Is the Emperor not worthy of the very best we can possibly throw against his enemies? 

 

What what point did our own discomfort become more important than this?

 

At what point did the mighty Black Templars become a mass of crying primadonnas?

 

We are now permitted to allow our allied brethren to take the battle into the warp for us.  We don't need to field our own Librarians, but our allies, who are our battle brothers, have vetted these Librarians and found them worthy.  We dishonor them and weaken ourselves by casting them off.  Each army is balanced within itself, it is madness to handicap ourselves because of some arbitrary desire to hold to the old ways.  If the old ways were good enough for us, they wouldn't be old. 

 

But they're not good enough for us.  We are better than that.  We are braver, stronger and more honorable than that.  If you choose not to place Librarians at the disposal of your Marshals through our allies, then that is your choice, but to whine like an Ultramarine is unbecoming our glorious chapter.  Some Marshals will use allied Librarians.  My own will embrace the presence of a Librarian among my Blood Ravens detatchment.  This is a good thing.  This is a worthy thing.  At last we need not bear the indignity of death by psychic attack without having any mechanism to retaliate.  The Emperor has given us this leave to do so.  It is not for us to questionhis wisdom.

 

/in character

[Honda]

/*Incharacter

 

There are those who would say that the wisdom used in the past is no longer wisdom. That we are wiser now. We know so much more, that it is acceptable to ignore the warnings of the past because they are old...as if true wisdom expires with use over time.

 

Gaze out at the galaxy around us. Is it better? Has your "wisdom" <sneer> made us better...or has it diluted our Faith? Did the Heretics spring up from too much FAITH in the wisdom of our Father or was it their selfish desire to be more than they were supposed to that brought calamity and corruption upon the Imperium?

 

Your protestations to the otherwise, the evidence of this "wisdom" <sneer> lines up like mountains against you. Many a supposedly wise man has fallen for the same mistake only to discover too late his error.

 

There is a line you cannot cross, for once crossed there is no coming back. You would believe that you are capable of courting with witches and remain untainted. ALL the  evidence in history declares you not only ignorant, but foolish.

 

Our father was clear.

 

Choose wisely.

[ArcticFox]

<in character>

 

My brother, your words carry wisdom and I feel as you do, and yet history as taught us so much more than that.  We alone, among all the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, eschew the use of Librarians.  Has it made us stronger?  Have our brethren of other Chapters fallen by the wayside for "consorting with witches?"

 

On the contrary.  Our avoidance of Librarians has not elevated us beyond our brethren.  It has not made us wiser, purer, or more successful.  It is our faith that sustains us.  Our trust in the Emperor and in his wisdom.  It is not our own wisdom but that of the Immortal Master of Mankind that guides us.  That has always remained.

 

Do you believe the Emperor sends us visions?  Do you believe that he knows what we are doing in his name?  Then you cannot hold to the notion that the use of a Librarius department in our fellow Astartes chapters goes on without his knowledge or sanction.  Clearly, he has rescinded his order at Nikaea and allowed his Astartes to use the warp as a weapon. 

 

We do not, but that is our choice.  Nevertheless would you leave our fellow servants of the Emperor to fight and die unaided merely because they bring a Librarian with them into battle?  Is that honor?  Is that what noble Sigismund would have us do?  Does your honor demand that you stand idle as the servants of our Master are destroyed merely for our own vanity?

 

I think not.  You are a Black Templar.  You are honorable and brave.  I know you would draw your weapon against absolutely any enemy in the universe in the service of our Emperor.  Have faith.  Be strong, and accept our new lot.

[Honda]

 

Have our brethren of other Chapters fallen by the wayside for "consorting with witches?"

 

I can count at least NINE who have fallen due to witchcraft. All thought that they were stronger than the powers who controlled them. All were misled. All have been corrupted and we defend our Father against them to this very day.

 

 

On the contrary.  Our avoidance of Librarians has not elevated us beyond our brethren.  It has not made us wiser, purer, or more successful.

 

And yet, we alone have prospered more than any other. None may count numbers as great as our Chapter. The Emperor has blessed us for our Faith. All others suffer in their weakness.

 

 

 

It is our faith that sustains us.  Our trust in the Emperor and in his wisdom.  It is not our own wisdom but that of the Immortal Master of Mankind that guides us.  That has always remained.

 

Indeed. If only you would listen to your own words and adhere to them.

 

 

Do you believe the Emperor sends us visions?  Do you believe that he knows what we are doing in his name?  Then you cannot hold to the notion that the use of a Librarius department in our fellow Astartes chapters goes on without his knowledge or sanction.  Clearly, he has rescinded his order at Nikaea and allowed his Astartes to use the warp as a weapon.

 

You whisper with the soothing tongue of a witch. You believe that in stating lies openly that it would make them truth.

 

There is only one Truth. Your words cannot change it.

 

There is His Light and there is their Darkness. They cannot coexist. You are either of Light or of Darkness.

 

You have been given the wisdom to choose.

 

Choose your course carefully.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys GW has changed the baseline truths of our chapter. Line by line they isolated and changed the things that made me play Templars in the First Place. The rules were whatever, I could easily hand wave some of it away, but the intolerance of witches, total rejection of the codex, ancestor worship, and operating independently of the Imperial Heirarchy was what drew me to the Templars.

 

 

The Teutonic Knights didn't carve their lands out of Slavic hands for the Pope in the end. They did it to be independent of Holy Roman rule. The Knights Templar didn't bow to Papal authority when the Pope came for their treasures, it took deceit to rob them. The Knoghts of Malta held out against the Ottomans, they didn't wait for some decree that said it was fine to treat with them. The romanticized versions of the stories of the knightly orders were the foundations of our background. Independence, Aggression, and Self-Reliance.

 

 

What Cruddace has done has fundamentally changed what we were and made us fall in line with the other 'deviants' who arguable are not that deviant. Where before we were unique of every documented chapter, now we are just another documented chapter.

 

It's time to hang up the tabard, fellas. These aren't the Black Templars of Codex Armageddon, IA 2, or Codex Black Templars. This is some new abomination that makes Helsreach and Blood and Fire invalid. How can any of you be comfortable with this? After years of being something special, to simply accept these changes and pretend they don't exist puts us firmly in the camp of femmarines and lost legions. The Herohammer 40k themes aren't even the problem now. It's the fact that every bit of background that drew me in isn't the chapters background anymore.

 

This isn't about adapting to changing times, either. Coming up with a cool conversion for an obliterator or centurion is adaptation. Saying Sternguard are veteran initiates is adaptation. But to suddenly say Astropaths are revered, where before they were penitents is invention and revision.

 

Those of you who go forward need to realize that you aren't fans of the Black Templars I was a fan of. They don't exist anymore. You are a fan of a new chapter.

[ArcticFox]

@Honda <in character>

 

Brother, do not dishonor me, for to do so is to dishonor all of us. Think you that my voice is alone? Do you believe, honestly, that other Marshals and their Crusades will universally maintain the old way for some arbitrary sense of self righteousness? Would you divide our glorious chapter to serve your vanity?

 

You are correct that the Emperor has blessed us, and that he has blessed us for our faith. Show your faith now. Do not let fear serve as a tool for your enemies. It is not the avoidance of Librarians that proves our faith. It is our devotion. It is our refusal to refuse a challenge. It is our prayers, our piety and our fury. These are the tools we use to fight for the Emperor. They will not, and have not been put aside. We will always use these tools. Always. It is for that reason that the Emperor will continue to bless us.

 

It is the mark of a Black Templar that we do not concern ourselves with what others think of us. We rely on our chaplains to teach us the will of the Emperor, and look not to our own, individual understanding. The chaplains are allowing us to ally with Librarians. That is the will of the Emperor, and it is good enough for me.

 

We trust atropaths, we trust navigators. Why? Because they have been properly vetted. It is why we trust the Grey Knights to fight at our side. We do this because we posess the humility to know when to trust in those who have greater knowledge and understanding than we. I counsel you, my brethren, do not hold yourselves to be higher in wisdom and understanding than he who sits upon the Golden Throne. That is the path of hubris, and it will ultmately take you as surely as it took Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Horus fell because he believed his wisdom and understanding to be superior to that of his father. Would you follow his example?

 

/in character

 

@Marshal2

 

The changes aren't as drastic as all that. They changed ONE THING that was a part of the Black Templars fluff. That's it. They preserved everything else that makes us unique and, frankly, the one change isn't that radical. So what if we tolerate Librarians of other chapters now? Good. Welcome to the world of consistency. I was tired of the philosphical gymnastics that said that Black Templars arbitrarily put up with navigators, astropaths and Grey Knights but NOBODY ELSE. Why? The very existence of Grey Knights was supposed to be a secret so how can Black Templars regard them as an exception due to their purity? The new way WORKS better with the 6th Ed rules, is more consistent fluff-wise and I like it. I agree that it's something of a retcon, but it's a good retcon. If you're willing to toss out your tabard over this one fluff issue then all I can say is good luck with whatever new army you'd like to go with. Nobody's saying you HAVE to field Librarians as allies, so if you choose not to then don't. It's your army, your call. By all means play it your way. :)

 

My son plays Eldar and there were several doubles tourbaments we wanted to play in but couldn't because his Eldar list is heavy on Farseers. That meant I could never play as his ally. It was the fluff and the crunch and it was annoying as hell. It didn't make Black Templars more fun to play, it was a liability that was well fluffed but ultimately was more of a nuisance. I'm glad that's gone. It needed to go, and I'm glad they found a way to make the change in a way that still acknowledged that part of our history.

 

Game on!

[Marshal Rohr]

Ill have my library with me Tuesday. I've already marked most of the revisions in the new book down for comparison to old background. Like I said. These changes don't make things better. They make things up out of nowhere.

[ArcticFox]

Of course they do.  Have you forgotten that ultimately, ALL of this is made up out of nowhere?

 

Fluff changes and evolves.  Leman Russ used to be an Imperial Guardsman.  There used to be Squats.  Marines used to be the same size as men.  Things change.  That is the only thing that doesn't change.    I'm glad they're still marking us out as a special chapter with special options and attributes, and is for the most part consistent with previous iterations.  It doesn't impact any of the fluff or backstory for my Crusade.

 

Go ahead and nitpick all the little details if you like.  There are far more glaring incosistencies about the Black Templars already.  Who cares?  Ultimately the only fluff that matters about your army is the fluff you create for it yourself, and the beauty of that is you can do whatever you want.   The only thing you HAVE to do is play by the rules.  Everything else is up to you.

[Marshal Rohr]

This :cuss about worshipping the Emperor as a God fundamentally changes the way any piece of DIY background is conceived. Adherence to Ministorum doctrine revises the previous independent streak. Reverence for Astropaths is contradictory.

 

 

Lets also look at the fact aside from a model here and there I have never branched out from Black Templars. I have we'll over 10,000 points without trying. 50+ Terminators. That was a 500 dollar investment. That doesn't include two battle companies worth of initiates. For Christi sake, man. I don't even have the luxury to stop playing them. They're all I've got to play with.

 

 

Edit: Aside from an old Ultramarines army that was half painted with testors

[Psykic_scribe]

Allied armies with witches? Just Codex creep, and not mandatory.

Taking up the Death Watch fluff as a guide, we still respect our poor brethren who haven't appreciated the risks of warp corruption through psykers. A BT marine guards against corruption when joining in a Death Watch squad by extra vigilance and prayers. Would we desert our brethren in their hour of need?

HOWEVER, as a PD, the BT can probably manage without calling for assistance from such allies unless in dire need (Armageddon scale).

More prayers brothers! and guard against corruption! Whatever next? Allied with DA? Bin there, dun that, not again.

[Perry]

This about worshipping the Emperor as a God fundamentally changes the way any piece of DIY background is conceived. Adherence to Ministorum doctrine revises the previous independent streak. Reverence for Astropaths is contradictory.

Where does it state anywhere in the new codex about adhering to Ministorum doctrine? As I can't find it.

What it does say is that somewhen in the past the chapter started to view the Emperor as a god, which has grown to fanaticalism.

This is fine with me, as I always viewed my Templar's as holy crusaders bringing the wraith of the emperor to his many foes, having wargear such as Holy hand grenades and characters with slave creatures lugging around holy artifacts only reinforces the religeous aspect of the previous codex.

[Balian of Terra]

Does anyone think that the rumored BT supplement is going to improve things much, fluff and ruleswise?

[Marshal Rohr]

The part talking about how marines with the emperor.

 

 

Starts at 'With the sole exception'

 

 

And if that's the case how do you justify Grimaldus exchange with the SoB in Helsreach or the description of how the Emperor is viewed in Blood and Fire which came out within the last month?

[ArcticFox]

Yeah I'm not sure how worshipping the Emperor as a god is contradictory to old fluff... I had always though it if being that way.

Dude the fluff exists to support the game. If you don't like the fluff then ignore it. If somehow your thousands of points of Templars become worthless just because the fluff changed a little, then I'd respecfully suggest that your focus is in the wrong place. I love Templars fluff, but it wsn't perfect. I like this better.

Think about it. not being able to ally with psykers was a disadvantage, not a strength. It didn't make my army play better for ignoring psykers. It was just another lack of options in a codex that already suffered severely from lack of options. Now we have it as an option. Don't want to? Don't! Not a problem brother. It's truly that simple. In the 6th Edition the ability to use allied detatchments made that disadvantage even more acute, because now we could bring in other codex armies but needed to be very careful not to include any pyskers. Yet another limitation. Are we celebrating disadvantages?

Well, yes, we did, didn't we? We needed a fluff justification for this weakness in our codex and we had one. Great. It got us through. But now GW had the chance to get us up to speed by giving us a mechanism, if we chose, to take full advantage of the opportunities and options permitted by the 6th Edition rules set. I think they did a pretty damn good job, actually. They gave us those options with the minimum change necessary to get it to work fluff-wise. It's a retcon, but I see no other option.

So quit complaining and play your damn Templars however you want.

[Honda]

/*wisdomandfaith

 

 

What Cruddace has done has fundamentally changed what we were and made us fall in line with the other 'deviants' who arguable are not that deviant. Where before we were unique of every documented chapter, now we are just another documented chapter.
 

 

Only if you let it. It is your choice as to whether or not you let others define who you are.

 

 

It's time to hang up the tabard, fellas.

 

These are truly dire times when the last actions of a...Templar are to yield. If that is all that you have the strength in you to do, so be it.

 

 

Brother, do not dishonor me, for to do so is to dishonor all of us. Think you that my voice is alone? Do you believe, honestly, that other Marshals and their Crusades will universally maintain the old way for some arbitrary sense of self righteousness? Would you divide our glorious chapter to serve your vanity?
 

 

I see. So you propose that it is my desire to maintain my vows, to Abhor the Witch, which makes me vain? I only dishonor those who would consort with witches. Should you choose to do so, and you are the one who chooses this action, you do not stand with us, you separate yourself for your own gain because you find yourself what...faithless?

 

 

You are correct that the Emperor has blessed us, and that he has blessed us for our faith. Show your faith now. Do not let fear serve as a tool for your enemies. It is not the avoidance of Librarians that proves our faith. It is our devotion. It is our refusal to refuse a challenge. It is our prayers, our piety and our fury. These are the tools we use to fight for the Emperor. They will not, and have not been put aside. We will always use these tools. Always. It is for that reason that the Emperor will continue to bless us.

 

No Fear. No Pity. No Remorse. This applies to all, especially witches.

 

 

 

It is the mark of a Black Templar that we do not concern ourselves with what others think of us.

 

How quickly you have walked away from this simple truth.

 

 

 

We rely on our chaplains to teach us the will of the Emperor, and look not to our own, individual understanding.

 

Yes, that is the wisdom that has stood the test of the millennia. A fact you are now choosing to ignore.

 

 

The chaplains are allowing us to ally with Librarians. That is the will of the Emperor, and it is good enough for me.
 

 

I see...you equate to hearing what you wish to hear as "truth". Your truth has not and will not stand. Remember the folly of Magnus.

 

 

We trust atropaths, we trust navigators. Why? Because they have been properly vetted. It is why we trust the Grey Knights to fight at our side. We do this because we posess the humility to know when to trust in those who have greater knowledge and understanding than we.

 

 

Trust and Tolerate, both begin with "T", but mean two completely different things.

 

 

 

I counsel you, my brethren, do not hold yourselves to be higher in wisdom and understanding than he who sits upon the Golden Throne. That is the path of hubris, and it will ultmately take you as surely as it took Magnus and his Thousand Sons. Horus fell because he believed his wisdom and understanding to be superior to that of his father. Would you follow his example?

Your feeble attempt to paint me as the transgressor has failed. I acknowledge and apply the timeless wisdom of my Father.

 

So should you.

[ArcticFox]

<in character>

 

My brother, if your only test of the value of wisdom is "it does not change" then truly you show no faith at all in those who lead us.  My vows are to destroy the witch, and I will always maintai that vow.  But you know as well as I that not all psykers are witches.  Astropaths, Navigators and Grey Knights all use the warp and yet are not witches.  Otherwise, you have failed in your duty for not storming the choir of the Battle Barge and slaying every single astropath within.  Our Marshals have failed for trusting navigators and not slaying them all.  Our glorious High Marshal is a failure for not calling for a crusade against Titan...

 

But this is absurd, is it not?

 

Our leaders have told us  that Librarius departments of other chapters are not witches.  So be it.  If my High Marshal ordersme to battle beside a Librarian then I will fight beside a Librarian.  If our Imperial allies call for aid from my Crusade I will not ask them first whether a Librarian is among them.  I will fight the enemies of mankind and I will kill them all, and I will not let the presence of Librarians slow me down simply because they're "icky."

[Krikey]

There are definitely discrepancies with the AD-B books and the rest of the BT fluff, which is a shame, because the books have considerable detail. In the end, though, I have to go back to pre-AD-B and now post-AD-B.

 

Pre-AD-B, we had the 4e BT codex, in which we have "spiritual leaders", "sacred standards", "holy orbs" and "holy bolters", "sacred duty", shrines for "prayer and worship", and literally dozens of other references to religion and the trappings thereof. It seems obvious that the Black Templars were a religious group and that they prayed to and worshipped something. If not the Emperor, then what are the alternatives?

 

In the 6e C:SM, it is now directly stated that we worship the Emperor as a god. I don't see any contradiction between our 6e rules and the 4e rules. There is only AD-B that digresses, but it's quite a digression. In Blood and Fire, we get the following from Grimaldus's point of view:

 

"The Emperor was immortal and mighty beyond reckoning. But he was no god. Mankind – in its blessed ignorance – worshipped him as one.”

~Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Blood and Fire.” Black Library, 2013.

 

So there is contradictory fluff, and I think either view of the Black Templars can be held as completely valid. The codices may be more "official", but the richness of AD-B's writing in books also published by GW cannot be discounted. Of course, there is also the strong possibility that the 6e C:SM is merely propaganda fomented by the Ministorum and Inquisition that may have accurate descriptions of the number and tactical aspects of our forces, but which spread FILTHY LIES about our spiritual aspects...

 

@Honda

Brother, do not dishonor me, for to do so is to dishonor all of us. Think you that my voice is alone? Do you believe, honestly, that other...

I like most of what you write, as heck, but I can't help but hear your "in character" comments in the voice that disgusting xenos known as "Marvin the Martian".

 

~K

[Marshal Rohr]

Space marines have always practiced a bastardized form of ancestor/hero worship it's what made the Templars so interesting. The religious feel of a knightly order mixed with preChristian familial reverence. The first known religions were ancestor worshippers so it makes sense that after an era of militany atheism the cycle of human nature would progress back to its first form of religion in the absence of dogma.

[ArcticFox]

T

I

like most of what you write, as heck, but I can't help but hear your "in

character" comments in the voice that disgusting xenos known as "Marvin

the Martian".

~K

This made my day