So...

[RazorDaemon]

/IC

*In the voice of a Space Marine like in DoW*

I heed the words of my Emperor, he set forth his decree upon the planet Nikea. Until the Emperor himself revokes his decree, not the Primarch of the Ultramarines, although he is a son of the Emperor he cannot overturn his father's word.

 

/OC

 

As far as old fluff validity, I personally think old fluff is still valid until new fluff directly opposes it. Since new fluff does not say "Black Templars are now down to 1000 souls" then I firmly believe we still are an unknown number above it.

[tvih]

The thing I liked about Templars and their religious ways and fanaticism was that there seemed to be no God-figure attached. It's a cheap, too-obvious and boring cop-out to introduce that now. I liked the idea of Crusading for the Emperor and Imperium without needing an "actual" God in the picture. Obviously the Emperor is a sort of god-like supernatural figurehead, but that's not the same thing. We may seem like gods to ants, but alas, we are not gods.

 

I suppose the final verdict will have to wait until the supplement if it does in fact get written, but from some of the stuff so far I'm not sure if I should be giddy for it or dread it :P

[Mandolore511]

Personally I'm not too happy with the new codex, but we're not as vanilla as I feared. Maybe they'll fix it a bit with the supplement. I guess it doesn't feel like we fit in the book as well as the other chapters... I certainly won't be going anywhere near filthy witches my self and will continue ridding the galaxy of their sorry existence until the Emperor calls me to his side. If others want to consort with them, well, just more foes to fall under my righteous wrath. I'll still shoot and or stab them allied or not.

 

As far as the fluff portions regarding the worship of his divine benevolence and august supreme majesty the one and only Emperor. I couldn't be happier. My crusade at least has always worshiped his sublime person in the temple of holy battle. I've always viewed my crusade as being as devoted as the sisters of battle... just we worship more on the battlefield and less in the cathedral. I've been rolling over in my mind how to make servitors carrying giant speakers to drown out the thoughts of the impure in the praise of his grace while their doom runs them down. Also the crusade fluff I'm working on includes recruiting primarily from shrine worlds... so the new bit about how we actually worship him who is seated in glory fits very nicely.

[Kristoff]

One could always view some of these attitudes, old, older, and new, as the behaviors and pronouncements for each Crusade. Some Marshalls may have a SOS order for ANY witch that is not involved in transport, while others are more tolerant. Some Chaplains are fanatical about the Creed, while other have an older view.

 

But one of the fun parts of the hobby.

[Honda]

<in character>

 

 

My brother, if your only test of the value of wisdom is "it does not change" then truly you show no faith at all in those who lead us.

 

It takes more faith to hold on to that which you were blessed with, than to seek new shiny distractions. You continue to frame my position incorrectly as if that would justify yours. I did not say that the value of wisdom is that it does not change. You did.

 

You seek to paint your position as being more enlightened through new "wisdom" <sneer>, fully ignoring what the Emperor has decreed. When faced with an absolute, you seek to avoid the truth and to deny what you were entrusted with. You seek tolerance for your sins and absolution. Your desire to undermine is richly cloaked in fetid mantle of inclusion. You seek lies.

 

We are the Templars. We are not tolerant. We are faithful. We bring the full measure of the Emperor's wrath upon those who pursue the path of the traitor, the heretic, and the xenos.

 

You cannot do both.

 

My vows are to destroy the witch, and I will always maintai that vow.

 

Then go forth and show us that you are a Templar. Demonstrate that you understand what it means to hold that title.

 

 

But you know as well as I that not all psykers are witches.

This is a lie that only a witch would attempt to argue.

 

 

 

 

Astropaths, Navigators and Grey Knights all use the warp and yet are not witches.

 

Why is it that when you are unable to defend your position, you seek to distract with meaningless chatter? You seek to defend Librarians. You seek to consort with them. They are witches. You are seeking acceptance so that you might become a consort of their coven, yet remain one of our own.

 

You can't. You have to choose. The Emperor declared where the line was to be drawn. You are either for the Emperor or against him. You either accept his timeless wisdom or reject it.

 

There is no middle ground.

 

Be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

 

 

  Otherwise, you have failed in your duty for not storming the choir of the Battle Barge and slaying every single astropath within.  Our Marshals have failed for trusting navigators and not slaying them all. 

 

Your claim of "their" trust has no standing. You assume because it fits your newfound beliefs. That does not make your statement accurate.

 

 

Our glorious High Marshal is a failure for not calling for a crusade against Titan...

 

Yet.

 

 

But this is absurd, is it not?

 

Our leaders have told us  that Librarius departments of other chapters are not witches.  So be it.  If my High Marshal ordersme to battle beside a Librarian then I will fight beside a Librarian.  If our Imperial allies call for aid from my Crusade I will not ask them first whether a Librarian is among them.  I will fight the enemies of mankind and I will kill them all, and I will not let the presence of Librarians slow me down simply because they're "icky."

 

"Our" leaders? You mean, those you have chosen to follow. There is an abyss between your piteous cries and the Emperor's Truth.

 

You speak heresy.

[Brother Jobu]

The new codex and the fluff therein that pertains to us...               Utter claptrap!

 

We had librarians once upon a time (likely losing them all in the aftermath of some past victory), and will be thoroughly thrilled at the return of librarians to us "if the Emperor wills it"?

 

Captain Helbrecht??? Since when have Black Templars ever had Captains?

 

Oh, let me not forget... We follow the Imperial Creed now. The Emperor is a Divine being! Cruddace has turned us into the 40K version of the pre-heresy Word Bearers.

 

Did you also hear the wonderful news? Our Chapter now has 10 black swords!!! How wonderful. Making sure that there is one for each Crusade in case our "once a century" Emperors Champion happens to have his visions. This of course lays the groundwork to bring us back into compliance with the other Chapters by only having 1000 marines.

 

Well, since it looks like we might be dwindling down to only 1000 marines (and I imagine only 1000 or so suits of power armor), those neophytes that are considered worthy enough (but can't be placed in a Crusade as an Initiate because it would make the Crusade too large) can now be sent on missions by themselves. They no longer need the supervision and tutelage of their Initiates. We'll also requisition sniper rifles and land speeder storms for them, along with heavy bolters and missile launchers.

 

 

It's just too much. I read the posts saying that this is a new start, and that all will be better. It's not, though. Sure we have a bunch of shiny new equipment available to us, but don't let the shiny objects distract you from the rip job we just went through. How do you think the Space Wolves fans would feel if their next codex said they only had 10 companies limited to 100 marines each and that Bjorn never fought alongside Russ and the Emperor? How would the Blood Angel feel if there was no longer a Red Thirst or the Death Company? The Dark Angels if it was decreed by GW that they no longer had the Ravenguard or Deathwing?

 

Our fluff, the history of the Black Templars has been turned upside down and ripped asunder. We were the most stubborn and adamant of the Imperial Fists, we were the marines that couldn't accept what Guilliman was trying to force upon us. Dorn made Sigismund our High Marshall and we set out on the Eternal Crusade, keeping true to the ideals of the Great Crusade. To bring the light of the Emperor to the stars, uniting humanity and destroying the enemies of mankind. No Pity, No Remorse, No Fear.

 

If this truly is the path that GW has decided the Templars will be taking, I don't hold out much hope for a Templar supplement.

 

I am saddened, but I will keep my black and white painted plastic/resin/metal men and their machines. It will not be the same, there will be a hollowness inside.

 

We had a codex, full of fluff history. Now we have four pages in a book that still has predominance of blue in it.

[ArcticFox]

@Honda:

 

  You know, it's too bad we don't live near one another.  There's only one way to end this kind of debate:  In a rousing 40K Battle!

[Honda]

@Arctic Fox: I salute you brother, it has been entertaining...and who knows, it is a small world. The future is full of possibilities.

 

 

We were the most stubborn and adamant of the Imperial Fists, we were the marines that couldn't accept what Guilliman was trying to force upon us. Dorn made Sigismund our High Marshall and we set out on the Eternal Crusade, keeping true to the ideals of the Great Crusade. To bring the light of the Emperor to the stars, uniting humanity and destroying the enemies of mankind. No Pity, No Remorse, No Fear.

 

We still are. Always remember that.

 

Codexes come and go, but your army is forever. This is your hobby, don't let anyone take it from you, especially someone you probably couldn't identify in a crowd of two who lives 6,000 miles away.

 

We are Templars. We KNOW who we are. They obviously don't.

 

Remember, "they" think we play Templars because we want to be like them. The Truth of the matter is that we play Templars because they are like us. We were Templars before they were created. GW only created the Templars so they could understand us better. McNeil understands that. So does A-D-B. Whomever penned the Templar piece in the new codex does not. We're assuming it is Cruddace, but it could have been someone else.

 

The point is, "they" were wrong. That doesn't change who we are or what we represent. We don't have to accept their reality.

 

They could just as easily have stricken us from the roster. I dare say a majority of  us would have continued to play Templars because of who we are, not  them.

 

We are Templars.

 

Nothing more need be said.

 

We are Templars.

[Algesan]

Yeah I'm not sure how worshipping the Emperor as a god is contradictory to old fluff... I had always though it if being that way.

Yeah, i's fairly obvious you are clueless and/or uncaring on this subject.

Dude the fluff exists to support the game. If you don't like the fluff then ignore it. If somehow your thousands of points of Templars become worthless just because the fluff changed a little, then I'd respecfully suggest that your focus is in the wrong place. I love Templars fluff, but it wsn't perfect. I like this better.

Good for you, then you will be happy playing as a Codex Asstartes Smurf Marine. From your posts, it's where you really want to be anyway.

BTW, it's a bit hard to ignore this fluff, since GW used the retcon to gut the Black Templars of their individuality. Claiming to love it and then not understanding why anybody is upset...I call BS.

Think about it. not being able to ally with psykers was a disadvantage, not a strength. It didn't make my army play better for ignoring psykers. It was just another lack of options in a codex that already suffered severely from lack of options. Now we have it as an option. Don't want to? Don't! Not a problem brother. It's truly that simple. In the 6th Edition the ability to use allied detatchments made that disadvantage even more acute, because now we could bring in other codex armies but needed to be very careful not to include any pyskers. Yet another limitation. Are we celebrating disadvantages?

No, it was the steady nerfing of Black Templar of all their uniqueness from day 1 of 6th Edition until the official assimilation of the as a Codex Asstartes compliant bunch of smurfs with a funny paint job. I could have pulled two of those BS nerfs, just two of the many, and the Black Templar would have still been viable as a primary detachment.

Well, yes, we did, didn't we? We needed a fluff justification for this weakness in our codex and we had one. Great. It got us through. But now GW had the chance to get us up to speed by giving us a mechanism, if we chose, to take full advantage of the opportunities and options permitted by the 6th Edition rules set. I think they did a pretty damn good job, actually. They gave us those options with the minimum change necessary to get it to work fluff-wise. It's a retcon, but I see no other option.

Then you are a bit clueless about game design and balance. Really, it is a couple of days work to upgrade to 6th without losing the distinctive variation of the Black Templar. It takes two because of some of the options used in other 6th codices make for potential interesting changes. If you want something more than a face lift, then it takes a couple of weeks. The level of smurfing I've seen? Cruddace probably wrote it while sitting on the throne for his daily constitutional on the paper he used.

So quit complaining and play your damn Templars however you want.

HELLO MCFLY! We can't since we are now retconned, smurfed and assimilated into compliance with Codex Asstartes. Unless you personally, in your great and mighty power, can guarantee that the entire 40k player base will reject this Squatting by Rolling Into Another Codex in favor of an actual fandex.

[Algesan]

There are definitely discrepancies with the AD-B books and the rest of the BT fluff, which is a shame, because the books have considerable detail. In the end, though, I have to go back to pre-AD-B and now post-AD-B.

 

Pre-AD-B, we had the 4e BT codex, in which we have "spiritual leaders", "sacred standards", "holy orbs" and "holy bolters", "sacred duty", shrines for "prayer and worship", and literally dozens of other references to religion and the trappings thereof. It seems obvious that the Black Templars were a religious group and that they prayed to and worshipped something. If not the Emperor, then what are the alternatives?

 

In the 6e C:SM, it is now directly stated that we worship the Emperor as a god. I don't see any contradiction between our 6e rules and the 4e rules. There is only AD-B that digresses, but it's quite a digression. In Blood and Fire, we get the following from Grimaldus's point of view:

 

"The Emperor was immortal and mighty beyond reckoning. But he was no god. Mankind – in its blessed ignorance – worshipped him as one.”

~Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Blood and Fire.” Black Library, 2013.

 

So there is contradictory fluff, and I think either view of the Black Templars can be held as completely valid. The codices may be more "official", but the richness of AD-B's writing in books also published by GW cannot be discounted. Of course, there is also the strong possibility that the 6e C:SM is merely propaganda fomented by the Ministorum and Inquisition that may have accurate descriptions of the number and tactical aspects of our forces, but which spread FILTHY LIES about our spiritual aspects...

 

Mankind, Reason, the Emperor's purpose, etc., etc., etc..  Many options not requiring worshiping the Emperor as deity would be viable alternatives.  Go read some secular humanist stuff, it is a religion and probably the closest thing to what the Emperor proclaimed.  Unless you really think people speaking of the "sacred soil" of their country or the "holy martyrs of the revolution" constitute worshiping something.  Heh, maybe you should check your dictionary for some of what the word "worship" means as well.

 

So, no, there isn't contradictory fluff, there is simply AD-B expanding from the core fluff in the codex.  Given that you might be able to come up with something you think it irrefutable, check at the door first and make sure it isn't a variation on the part of BT character involved.

 

[ArcticFox]

@Honda: Agreed and I salute you as well. If you ever make it out to Baltimore, consider yourself challenged to a game.

@Algesan: Get over yourself, dude. Seriously. If you're mad at GW don't take it out on me just because I don't choose to join you in the martyr's corner.

[Terrified Templar]

Algesan just step back for a minute ok? If you're really this concerned about all of this then find some other people who share your opinon and talk about how annoyed you all are. Most of us are just trying to look at the bright side and it would really help if you didn't try to bring us down with you. Thank you.

[Algesan]

@Honda:

 

  You know, it's too bad we don't live near one another.  There's only one way to end this kind of debate:  In a rousing 40K Battle!

 

 

The problem with that idea...I played the last major tournament with Black Templars in the list.  I'll play again when I can do so again.  I'll not submit to the assimilation of smurfing.  Until then, there will be nobody playing anything other than black & white Codex Asstartes clones.

 

Face it, 40k has never been a great game system and 6th has shoved it far downhill....hmmmm....well, unless you are the kind of person who thinks retconning a Marine faction out of viable independent existence into yet another compliant chapter of smurf variants is "wonderful".  So maybe I should just bless you to go forth and be "cinematic" while "forging a narrative" with your, well, you can't call it opponent these days...maybe date?

 

So, I played 40k for the fluff.  Three choices, GW hosed one minorly (actually improved them in many respects, but failed to follow up on the improvements), virtually Squatted the second and actually Squatted by retcon the third.

 

Pollyanna moment just for you as heck, to go with your Glad Game: the new fluff explains totally, reasonably and logically why Black Templars are the one and only group (chapter now) of Marines that aren't Allies of Convenience, but Desperate Allies. 

[Marshal Rohr]

It not being a martyr, as heck. Look at what the Iron Hands have been going through for 3 editions. Now we are getting our own taste of it. Our complaints are not unjustified, not matter what the mob says. GW can't and haven't pleased everyone with the newly invented Templar background and that grates on a few of us. Especially those of us who've devoted over a decade to thinking our chapter operates a certain way, only to find out that everything in the past decade isn't 'true' anymore. Us just saying, "Well, Im just gonna pretend this doesn't exist" have been moved into the fringe of gamers who make up Lost Legions, think Rune Priests are special, and Females can be marines. 'Our' version of 40K is no longer the real 40K, where as before it was. 

 

 

If I made up an unheard of rank for my Crusade, or said my Battle Barge was a Gloriana Battleship, that was acceptable because it didn't really go against anything established. But if I say my Crusade doesn't think the Emperor is a God, that is like saying the Ultramarines Primarch is Vulkan. Its patently untrue. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Algesan just step back for a minute ok? If you're really this concerned about all of this then find some other people who share your opinon and talk about how annoyed you all are. Most of us are just trying to look at the bright side and it would really help if you didn't try to bring us down with you. Thank you.

No one is bringing you down and there is no bright side. The new background is about as Black Templar as Game of Thrones is to the Caliphate Succession.

Edit: Krikey, I think he and you are actually in agreement, he was confused by the A D-B reference you made.

[RazorDaemon]

Without becoming condescending myself, but still addressing Krikey (Krikey isn't the one being condescending, that is someone else, he knows):

 

The idea of the Emperor being a God, God-like or just really-super-awesome is intended to vary around the Empire. Some are more religious than others, while there are many more common citizens that view the Emperor as full fledged God and more Space Marines that view him as something higher than themselves but maybe not a God. If a certain player wants his army to worship the Emperor as a true God, go for it, if someone else doesn't, leave them alone and worry about your own self.

 

(Following not directed at Krikey, just to be clear) How can someone who claims to play 40k not get the concept of free reign and the ability to customize your army in both looks and fluff. If you think two Marines of even the same Chapter can't have disagreements concerning doctrine and belief explain the Horus Heresy to me. Explain how many Chapters were split apart and its the part that survived that is now known as either Loyalist or Traitor.

[ArcticFox]

@Algesan: Well if you choose to get personal over a disagreement like this then I pity you.  I'm not even joking.  At the end of the day this is a game, which you either choose to play or you don't.  Attack me personally if that makes you feel better.  You're not mad at me, you're mad at GW.  So don't play their game and don't give them your money if you can't deal with it. 

 

There's nothing else to be said.

 

Peace out, brothers.

[Marshal Rohr]

Without becoming condescending myself, but still addressing Krikey (Krikey isn't the one being condescending, that is someone else, he knows):

 

The idea of the Emperor being a God, God-like or just really-super-awesome is intended to vary around the Empire. Some are more religious than others, while there are many more common citizens that view the Emperor as full fledged God and more Space Marines that view him as something higher than themselves but maybe not a God. If a certain player wants his army to worship the Emperor as a true God, go for it, if someone else doesn't, leave them alone and worry about your own self.

 

(Following not directed at Krikey, just to be clear) How can someone who claims to play 40k not get the concept of free reign and the ability to customize your army in both looks and fluff. If you think two Marines of even the same Chapter can't have disagreements concerning doctrine and belief explain the Horus Heresy to me. Explain how many Chapters were split apart and its the part that survived that is now known as either Loyalist or Traitor.

 

You understand that following your reasoning (splitting between God and Great Man) was what led to the Heresy? In the microcosm of a single chapter, even one as big as the Templars it would most certainly lead to violence and civil war within the chapter. Its not about free reign. They took us from having lebensraum for our own individual mark on our Crusades, to sticking rails on how far we can deviate. 

[RazorDaemon]

Without becoming condescending myself, but still addressing Krikey (Krikey isn't the one being condescending, that is someone else, he knows):

The idea of the Emperor being a God, God-like or just really-super-awesome is intended to vary around the Empire. Some are more religious than others, while there are many more common citizens that view the Emperor as full fledged God and more Space Marines that view him as something higher than themselves but maybe not a God. If a certain player wants his army to worship the Emperor as a true God, go for it, if someone else doesn't, leave them alone and worry about your own self.

(Following not directed at Krikey, just to be clear) How can someone who claims to play 40k not get the concept of free reign and the ability to customize your army in both looks and fluff. If you think two Marines of even the same Chapter can't have disagreements concerning doctrine and belief explain the Horus Heresy to me. Explain how many Chapters were split apart and its the part that survived that is now known as either Loyalist or Traitor.

You understand that following your reasoning (splitting between God and Great Man) was what led to the Heresy? In the microcosm of a single chapter, even one as big as the Templars it would most certainly lead to violence and civil war within the chapter. Its not about free reign. They took us from having lebensraum for our own individual mark on our Crusades, to sticking rails on how far we can deviate.

That is partially my point, there are disagreements even within chapters, so while some BT may be ok with psykers of course there are still plenty that still would rather shoot them. I realize the changes and what is happening, but the Codex isn't an absolute on fluff, not with the hundreds of fluff sources. We look at the Codex and cookie cut our entire army and Chapter regardless of the player, that would make us Ultrasmurfs. I mean really, since when do BT follow a Codex verbatim , right? I just see this more as allowing those who wish to have a more progressive, for lack of a better word, attitude to still play an army like BT, they'll just be the new young wiper-snappers with their new-fanged ideas regarding witches, but I'll have none of it.

[Acebaur]

Algesan: Cool it, there is no need to attack other members just because they have a different opinion than you.

 

First off, have any of you who are so up in arms about how we have supposedly been completely changed even read the fluff in the new codex?  Remember in 40K the only cannon is there is no cannon. Stuff gets contradicted all the time. The way a chapter believes as a whole doesn't reflect on every individual. Marines can disagree on certain beliefs, I've read enough 40K books to know that.  I have read the new fluff and I don't find it so drastically different that we aren't Templars anymore. In fact it seems they went out of their way to talk about how much we reject the codex and have formed our own organization and tactics.  The bit about the witches was to ease off of the insane hatred of very people we depend on to be able to wage war. Also so that people who wanted to ally with their friends who fielded psykers could.

 

Personally the Emperor god worship doesn't bother me at all, I've always figured he was a god, there is no other explanation for the amount of power he wields and why the chaos gods fear him so. I also personally love the new info about the EC and the black swords. They say nothing whatsoever about our size in this book and I like that the EC is more rare and special. It made no sense that there was probably dozens of EC's running around all wielding these super rare relics.

 

The tone in this thread is becoming increasingly aggressive(baring as heck and Honda's exchanges). Everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath and relax. If you can't discuss this like reasonable people then this thread will be closed until cooler heads can prevail. Know this any personal attacks that I see and the entire post will be fragged on sight.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Getting tired of all the reports the mods are having to field in this forum of late. Maybe swallowing this forum into the Index Astartes would be the better course. Yet another taking the Emperor's Mercy because folks can't seem to keep themselves in check.