Traitor Raven Guard?

[Larkyn]

After seeing 1000Heathens posts in the Unkindness of Ravens thread about Native American skinwalkers, I'm kind of half tempted to make Traitor Raven Guard based on this myth/legend.

 

I've written up a bit of fluff that I know needs to be worked on for it to fit right, but I figure if we have Loyalist World Eaters, we can have Traitor Raven Guard.

 

 

Known as the "Oathbroken", this platoon of Raven Guard joined the Warmaster's
side during the horror of the Drop Site Massacre. Cut off from the remains of
the Raven Guard force, and surrounded by Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, they
fought bitterly until a lone warrior strode from the ranks of the Word Bearers.
This Astartes was a superbly powerful sorcerer, and calling upon the powers of
the Warp, he seduced the entire band of Raven Guard. (NB: Either that, or they
gave themselves willingly?)

 

Led by Akando (ambush) Chogan (blackbird), former Chieftain
of III Platoon, 14th Shadow Company, the Oathbroken now consist of a mere
handful of warriors, absorbed by the Alpha Legion, due to the similarity in tactics.

 

What do people think?

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, maybe he gave them the chance to live and "exact vengeance on the brothers who abandoned them"?

[GhostMalone]

Brother join the battle for humanity I want more grim dark

[Larkyn]

I like the exacting vengeance thing.

 

And Jasp, I do have an Imperial Fist army that I'm working on. I also wanted to do a smaller Traitor force, which was originally going to be Alpha Legion, but RG with Alpha would be even more epic.

[Hyaenidae]

The Skinwalkers were black-hearted, yes, but not necessarily evil. They were akin to witch doctors of the amazon, and had a place in Native society for a reason.

 

I would say, toe the line and remain in shades of grey. A force of shadow walking killers whose loyalty was questionable could make for an interesting story.

 

Also, try researching the Mexican folklore of the Cadejo (Wiki has an article, if I remember right). Could feed some more inspiration.

[Larkyn]

I kinda want to make a black dog on the base of my praetor now...

 

Anything else out there, Heathens, that would be of interest?

[Conn Eremon]

Raven Mockers sound like they might be right up your alley. They're a Cherokee spirit that honestly sound like awesome pre-Long War Raptors.

[jeremy1391]

Did a little reading on raven mockers.... Could be a good basis for a night lords war band...

[Kol Saresk]

Nah. I think the crocotta and dullahans work out better as Night Lord influences.

[SyNidus]

Traitor Raven Guard seems a bit far fetched, at least as far as those joining in at the Massacre. It would not fit for a number of reasons:

- the bond of brotherhood within each legion was strong. Even if you look at the Dark Angels and Luther separating, it was out of envy at having been left out of the glory of conquest for so long.

- if such a thing happened at the time of the massacre, you'd also have to consider the effect it would have on the RG survivors, I.e. if they had witnessed their own battle brothers fighting against them, the knowledge of that would have been passed along during the battle itself. The RG would end up being suspicious of each other and it's likely that Corax would've found out about it. Mention would have been made about this. In fact, the entire plot of Deliverance Lost as far as the AL infiltrating the RG couldn't have happened.

 

HOWEVER, that being said, it's also likely that along the way, after the heresy some RG turned traitor. We did see this with Aethon Shaan in the Uriel Ventris trilogy. So traitors in a more modern time would better fit with the fluff.

 

On the other hand, the idea that a word bearer sorcerer used warp magic to corrupt a loyal band of RG who were cut off and surrounded is equally possible. I'm just saying that they would not have been able to join in the fighting against the RG at the massacre itself.

 

And the Raven Mocker mythology sounds a lot cooler than the skin walker myth :)

 

Just my 2 cents

[Chronotonic]

at the same time there were forces loyal to the emperor in the Chaos Legions why would it be so far fetched to think a few squads that fought with Horus and those others sided with them during the Heresy...granted not even as close to as many loyalist in the traitor legions as killed on Istvaan but still I could see maybe a company or two "loyal sons" joining Horus and his men as they have the same idea as some of the traitors of getting angry because the imperium they built up and died for is being handed off to mere mortals...

[Kol Saresk]

SyNidus, have you by chance read Prince of Crows by A D-B in the Shadows of Treachery Anthology?

[Hyaenidae]

My original point was to take aspects and aesthetics from multiple myths, from the skinwalkers, to the cadejo, to the raven mockers, to the pau'guk of the ojibway, and blend and mix it until it's yours.

Any knucklehead can find a cool pic or name (I'm proof ), but if you take the extra effort to research and cautiously blend many different myths and folktales, melt them down and cast your own tale from their distinct influences, is when you will not only have something epic, but something you can call your own. And when you own something, you will have pride. You take care of it, and it will take care of you.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah. I just wish I could have seen the Cadejo bear fruit.

[SyNidus]

I can't say i have read it Kol Saresk, but i'm all ears. :)


Now i understand, given my obvious affection for the RG, my comment may be seen as biased and therefore illogical/unreliable, but i assure you, i've got solid logical grounds for say why traitor RG fighting against their brethren at the dropsite massacre would've been both implausible and improbable.

Capitano, granted what you say is similar to the current idea posed, but there's a slight difference. The traitor legions weren't always traitor legions. Being loyal to the Emperor was their status quo and it took fairly massive events coupled with underlying cracks to drive each of them to turn traitor.

Sons of Horus: They had ideas of warrior lodges, coupled with ritualistic practices which were infiltrated by Chaos through Erebus. Before that, they've always been particularly proud of their primarch.

Word Bearers: Always had a religious leaning, but when the emperor spurned Lorgar's attempts to deify the emperor, he turned to worshipping the Chaos Gods instead

Night Lords: Even before the heresy they've been maligned for their use of excessive force. Konrad's visions; the influx of criminal elements from Nostromo, and; being censured by the other brothers meant that they already had a factor pulling them away from the Emperor.

Thousand Sons: The council at Nikea already put a stress on Magnus and his legion because this was their main attribute; psyker-ness and sorcery. The catalyst was when the emperor not only censured Magnus for trying to warn him, but he even set the space wolves on them in an attempt to purge the legion.

Death Guard: There were strong splits within the legion between the Terran born Dusk Raiders and the Barbarus born Death Guard by the time Istvaan III happened. The increasing Barbarus-cultural influences in the legion meant alienation of the Terran born, who had always brought with them terran traditions. It's easy to see how they would splinter, with the loyalists on one side (such as Garro) and the traitors on the other.

Iron Warriors: The Iron warriors became increasingly bitter because they were constantly left behind as a stabilising/occupation force. There was also the rivalry between Dorn and Perturabo and better prospects of glory for the IW by siding with Horus. It's easy to see how they eventually turned.

Emperor's Children: The emperor's children were aloof after being bestowed the honour of bearing the aquila. The innate idea that they were better than other legions was there. The factors affecting them were: Fulgrim's closeness with Horus, his subsequent corruption through the sword, coupled with the sense of superiority, they too fell prey to treachery

World Eaters: Like the night lords, they'd already been on the more extreme side of the use of force. Add to Angron's resentment at being saved against his will by the emperor, his own proclivities towards wrath, the aggression chips implanted into recruits. Do you think they would not have turned?

Alpha Legion: This legion, i honestly can't say for certain whether they are actually traitors or not. What i do know is that they've always played a role in the heresy against Loyalists.

My point is this: Each of the traitor legions already had strong reasons to go against the emperor. Each had their stressors and their influences which made it inevitable that they would turn traitor. It was only because of these strong reasons that they were willing to go against the grain entirely and turn traitor.

Now consider the Raven Guard. They've never been maligned by the imperium or its people. The only issue they had against other legions was Horus because of his arrogance and bloodshed between the legions was avoided only by Corax removing himself and his legio from Horus' command. Corax hated Horus, plain and simple. Corax only joined the emperor after having spoken to him, it was voluntary so clearly an understanding must have been reached between Corax and the Emperor.

Consider as well the fact that all legionnaires virtually worshipped their primarchs and followed his lead and judgment on most things, the legionnaires would have held. The Raven Guard were comprised of recruits from the freed slaves of Deliverance or the terran warriors brought with the emperor, Neither of which had any problem with the other. Indeed the human population of deliverance saw the legion as their protectors and brothers, no doubt this affection would have carried on in the deliverance born recruits as well.

And directly relating to your point Capitano, why would the RG feel resentment towards the mortal population of the imperium? That's unlikely, they were former slaves and still held affection for the mortal population even after they were inducted. Their entire ethos is based on the premise of liberation and emancipation of humanity!

What stressors or influences (that we know of from fluff) are there which would turn the RG traitor BEFORE the massacre? Of course individuals will have their views: I'm not saying it's impossible:

I'm saying it is extremely implausible and improbable.

[Conn Eremon]

My original point was to take aspects and aesthetics from multiple myths, from the skinwalkers, to the cadejo, to the raven mockers, to the pau'guk of the ojibway, and blend and mix it until it's yours.

Any knucklehead can find a cool pic or name (I'm proof ), but if you take the extra effort to research and cautiously blend many different myths and folktales, melt them down and cast your own tale from their distinct influences, is when you will not only have something epic, but something you can call your own. And when you own something, you will have pride. You take care of it, and it will take care of you.

Some of the most fun I have in this hobby is to come up with the concepts of a force, and 1000niftyguys' post quoted above is what makes that fun. Space Marines are more than just psychopathic, brainwashed, emotionally stunted, socially awkward super-soldiers. They are the heroes of myth and legend, nine times out of ten influenced at the conceptual stage by one of ours. Which is, honestly, what first attracted me to the hobby. History in SPAAAACE. When I initially come up with an idea, I look it up, and I just keep clicking around, exploring as many aspects as interests me. If I come across something that just fits, I jot it down. I don't have to be faithful to the source, because I'm just taking what I want as inspiration. I don't need to care about the veracity of the sources, because all I'm doing is looking for ideas. Of course, I actually do, but, as a History major and just plain nerd of all things historical, anthropological or mythological, that is just me.

Once I have exhausted my interests in my search, I take all those notes I took and see which ones are the most similar. I merge those, making something new and whole from the pieces. By the end of it, I have a small collection of awesome points to build something off of.

It is actually really easy to mix and match and merge things together. History repeats itself. Myths and religions share themes regardless of geographical location or point in time. There was a gentleman by the name of Joseph Campbell who wrote some books on the underlying similarities across all myths, legends and religions. His ideas on the universal myths are hardly revolutionary or original, but I find that he was the most aware and focused on it, and was very easy to understand. The Power of Myth is a great introduction to him and his work, I would certainly recommend looking it up.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, there's a surprise for you in there ;)

 

Also, when I suggested the Traitor Raven Guard, I wasn't suggesting they turn around and fight the Raven Guard. Rather, these would be some who were left behind when Corax made his escape from Istvaan V.

 

Take that treasured brotherhood. Now provide evidence of it being broken. Then throw that evidence into the faces of those who were, unknowingly, left behind. Space Marines are still children after all. They might have minds of steel but once you make your way past the walls, they are fragile. And all it takes is applying the right pressure in the right place.

 

Also, technically not even all the Traitors had a grudge against Humanity or the Imperium. Lorgar honestly believed that the Emperor had wronged Humanity by hiding the fact that there are gods, and that by doing the will of the gods, Humanity could ascend and merge with the warp, becoming all-powerful as a result. Horus thought the Emperor had truly abandoned them and that a new, more caring(ironic, I know) Emperor should take his place. Granted, many in their Legions did not share their views. But can we say that every Loyalist shared all the views of their respective Primarchs?

 

The point is, that at least those two wanted to benefit Humanity and the Imperium, not destroy it.

[SyNidus]

Kol Saresk, i never said that RG traitors during the heresy couldn't happen. But i specifically said "I'm just saying that they would not have been able to join in the fighting against the RG at the massacre itself." So yeah. Raven Guard Legionnaires cut off from the rest of the legion and left for dead could definitely be turned! That's a situation which could very easily happen.

Also mentioned that each traitor legion had it's reasons. Of course not every single trooper would follow his primarch's views on everything, I said that as well. I also never said that the traitor legions did not have good intentions. In fact, if anything, it was their good intentions (but misguided nonetheless) that led to the heresy.

[Chronotonic]

Well my idea was just an addition to stuff already up there

 

the traitor RG

 

made traitor by that one Librarian who turned the squad...

 

But we all know that SM training would make it all but impossible to turn astartes to your train of thought...even harder because these Librarians have not made deals with deamons to boost their own powers...thus the seed is what that Librarian would use to turn the captain/sergeant/banner carrier/whomever you are choosing here

 

--------------------------------

 

As for the Alpha Legion doing what they did I think that the way they did it could work...it was only a matter of time until they were found out and they knew it too...I think it would have been caught quicker but the fact that they were just cut down by their brothers...on top of almost being wiped out to the man would make all those left rethink their own lives for awhile and get caught up in the fact...

[Daemon2027]

The Warmaster: sounds like an interesting idea. I feel there could be a darker side to the Raven Guard that can be exploited. I think keping it somewhat grey though would be best, keeping there loyalties uncertain. Perhaps they fought bitterly to give Corax a chance to escape only to see his transport shot down. Not realising that he, and a portion of the legion survived, they went rogue. Maybe they had been corrupted by a Word Bearer Chaplain who had been with the company for a while. Maybe weave in the American mythology to caste them as slight outsiders in the Legion anyway and you have a strong case for them being manipulated by Horus.

 

If you want any ideas from my RG then just ask, I'm not exactly sure what direction I will go in. Going to give it a rest for a bit, not down some ideas and pick up either the RG of the AL again when I have a clearer direction, probably once Massacre is out.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol Saresk, i never said that RG traitors during the heresy couldn't happen. But i specifically said "I'm just saying that they would not have been able to join in the fighting against the RG at the massacre itself." So yeah. Raven Guard Legionnaires cut off from the rest of the legion and left for dead could definitely be turned! That's a situation which could very easily happen.

 

Also mentioned that each traitor legion had it's reasons. Of course not every single trooper would follow his primarch's views on everything, I said that as well. I also never said that the traitor legions did not have good intentions. In fact, if anything, it was their good intentions (but misguided nonetheless) that led to the heresy.

lol, fair enough. I was just agreeing with you from a different angle was all.

[Guest Musketeer12]

How about they were turned by the word bearers after seeing the massacre and being shown prophesies of the battle of terra?

 

Musket

[Larkyn]

That could work too, I suppose. Maybe the Chaplain/Sorcerer showed them the future similar to the Cabal did with the Alpha Legion.

[Hyaenidae]

In my head, this is what I'm seeing:

 

Your particular group sees your primarch's ship get shot down as they are escaping. Assuming that their father is dead, the group ceases to care about anything other than revenge. They gather who they can (maybe a sallie or iron hand amongst them), bury themselves deep in warmaster held territory, and begin waging a guerrila war like no other (aka, they can't recieve word that the primarch is indeed alive). They would be constantly on the edge of going overboard with their tactics, choking with dark emotion and suffering, slaughtering the warmasters supporters in vicious ways. In their emotional darkness, they might fall back into ancient cultural methods/roots of their leader (maybe a Terran? Or possibly a ancient system of a preserved dark culture that survived slavery on Deliverence?) Always toeing the line, hands shaking, marking their plate in the old ways (white and black warpaint would look nice), blackened blades slathered with the blood of ignorant innocents, who were foolishly following Horus, not recognizing the threat, but suffering the wrath of broken, screaming shadows who can barely keep themselves in check.

 

Tap into that potentail sorrow, pain, and sense of righteous revenge. A Legion of tyrant-killers shadowed in horror and sadness, walking a fine line between vengeance and damnation.

[Kol Saresk]

You really want to see those tribal Raven Warriors become a reality, don't you Heathens?