Best Chapter Tactics?

[templargdt]

What do you guys think?  To me it's the Imperial Fists followed by Iron Hands.  Rerolling 1's on bolt weapons is pretty good, but tank hunters on devs is awesome.  Flak missiles get solid results with that.  Oh, and your Quad Gun.  That's fantastic.

 

As for the IH, 6+ FNP is meh to me, but IWND on all your vehicles could be great if you're armor heavy.  IWND on a Land Raider?  Yeah, I'll take that.  After taking a few hull points, you can shuffle your vehicles around, bring some fresh units around to shield LoS to the damaged ones and wait for the repair rolls.

 

The rest to me are are not in the same category. 

• The UM doctrines are one shot deals; reroll misses on tacs is great, but otherwise?  One fleet per game (waaghh!) is okay, but how much assaulting do you do in a C:SM army?  Then there is the Devastator one which is seems pretty useless to me. 
• The sallies are pretty fluffy but uninspiring.  How many armor saves against flamers do you typically take in a game?  My answer is none because the only flamer templates I find myself under these days are AP 3 from Heldrakes.  Rerolls on your flamers are okay, but I don't have trouble killing things that flamers kill in a C:SM army.  I need help killing Riptides and Heldrakes. 
• White Scars seem great if you have a ton of bikes, which I don't and I don't plan on spending several hundred dollars on.  But if you have them, not bad at all.  Khan seems awesome to boot. 
• Ravenguard... eh?  Scouts on my transports is okay if I'm trying to assault someone (I'm probably not).  Rerolls on my Jump Pack units would be great if our jump pack units were good but they're not.  Then again, I have hopes for new massively cheaper vanguard veterans.

What do you guys think?

[Excubitor]

I see them in a different way to you then.

 

-IF and IH Chapter Tactics; powerful and direct, much like the chapters.

-UM; extremely powerful for one turn with each, requiring the right timing and tactics to make the most of them, suiting their supposed tactical superiority.

-Salamanders; suits the background of the chapter, and allows for powerful short-ranged lists.

-WS; very suitable for the chapter that lives around direct, mobile assaults.

-RG; I actually see these being powerful, in the subtle, IN-direct methods of the sons of Corax. All the others are more openly powerful, these seem more indirectly so. Remember, with scout, they can also outflank. I think it will take longer than the other chapter tactics for the real strengths of the RG to come out.

 

I see uses and abuses in ALL the Chapter Tactics. I also find them surprisingly fluffy for the chapters involved. For example, in contrast to the IF, who are more direct and in-your-face (and their tactics show this) the RG are all about misdirection, confusion, and hitting the right place HARD. You can deploy a couple of vehicles in one place before the game, then after your opponent deploys, move then somewhere else. You can keep units in reserve and outflank, and your opponent will not know where they will appear.

[Custodian Athiair]

As a Salamander player through and through I will not change however I find myself reeling from the backlash of last edition. When everyone took He'Stan to get the best rules at the time. So what happened to us? They take us down to the bottom of the pile. Flamers are barely used now a days because they dont have much use beyond two codexs (Orks and Tyranids)

 

Add to that that we still cant take heavy flamers in tactical squads (which is a gut punch)

 

And to finish it off to even make use of the builds we used last codex we still have to take He'Stan to make the swathe of meltaguns we all have even slightly improved.

This is slightly rectified by now being able to give HeStan a Command Squad.

 

I suppose a free master-craft weapon is nice, but it aint brilliant.

 

 

 

To your question I think you're right. Ultramarines are quite nifty too though, if you play well and use them at the right time.

But dont forget with Iron Hands IWND on characters! Throw that in with FNP it starts getting ugly

[WarriorFish]

Maybe with the UM tactics you could make good use of podding Tacs? Thundering in and delivering punishing bolter fire and more to really take the wind out of your opponent.

[Ishagu]

The devastator doctrine in the UM traits is great.

Re-rolling overwatch and snapfire can be very useful in late game when you're being assaulted or have to deal with a busy airspace...

[Kastor Krieg]

Flamers are barely used now a days because they dont have much use beyond two codexs (Orks and Tyranids)

Have you EVER played against these guys?

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/11/7/428787_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Flames,%20Flyer,%20Heldrake,%20Oranges.jpg

 

Because now you can put anything you want on a Skyshield and laugh your ass off at the 3-4 'drakes builds, when all these guys have re-rollable 4++.

[Naminé]

As a Salamander player through and through I will not change however I find myself reeling from the backlash of last edition. When everyone took He'Stan to get the best rules at the time. So what happened to us? They take us down to the bottom of the pile. Flamers are barely used now a days because they dont have much use beyond two codexs (Orks and Tyranids)

 

Add to that that we still cant take heavy flamers in tactical squads (which is a gut punch)

 

And to finish it off to even make use of the builds we used last codex we still have to take He'Stan to make the swathe of meltaguns we all have even slightly improved.

This is slightly rectified by now being able to give HeStan a Command Squad.

 

I suppose a free master-craft weapon is nice, but it aint brilliant.

 

 

 

To your question I think you're right. Ultramarines are quite nifty too though, if you play well and use them at the right time.

But dont forget with Iron Hands IWND on characters! Throw that in with FNP it starts getting ugly

 

What? I take tons of flamers in everygame and they rock.  Salamanders took a buff, which was a surprise to me if anything.  Now you get better protection against flamers in addition to twin-linked everywhere.  Vulkan giving a master-crafted weapon to ALL characters is so many times better then before (mastercrafted meltabombs on sergeants, anyone?)  and now it's cheaper then ever to get mass melta and flamer in your enemy's face.  They even made the Redeemer's flamers twin-linked for you!

 

Salamanders are right up there with IH as far as I'm concerned.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Maybe with the UM tactics you could make good use of podding Tacs? Thundering in and delivering punishing bolter fire and more to really take the wind out of your opponent.

Not necessarily Tacticals, even - I'm thinking the army-wide re-roll buff from the Tactical Doctrine makes Sternguard and their pricey combi-guns hit even harder on drop-turn.

...for Drop Pod lists, it looks like the one-turn firepower boost from the UM Chapter Tactics is the best bet...unless you feel like annoying your opponent with IWND Deathwind Drop Pods, of course...

For more normal lists, I will agree that it looks like it's between the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands, with the better of the two depending on your ratio of infantry (Devastators in particular) to vehicles.

Also, less tactics-related, I am very happy the White Scars finally reflect their mastery of bikes in the fluff...and I think that the Jump Infantry aspect of the Raven Guard one sounds just plain fun.

[DarkGuard]

Don't forget that White Scars get Hit and Run as well. That's powerful. Part of the reason why Combat Tactics was so good in the last Codex was because you could fall back from assaults and carry on shooting, shooting being what Marines are better at. Hit and Run can be quite powerful for us, making White Scars pretty good.

 

Imperial Fists are good, who doesn't like re-rolls and Tank Hunters.

 

Iron Hands, I probably wouldn't take them, seems too marginal to me (success rate of FnP etc).

 

Salamanders are still good, and MC weapons makes them better. Tank Shock combined with twin-linked flamers is amazing, even against MEQ. And Vulkan still twin-links meltas. Being able to MC all your combis that Sergeants take are good.

 

I think Raven Guard had so much promise until they forbade Assault Marines from gaining Scout and Stealth, they can't assault after using Scout, and it would have been so fluffy. Still, their ability to use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase is very good. Unfortunately, Assault squads didn't get additional power weapons or different special weapons in the squad, so I don't think we'll see many Assault Marine heavy armies.

 

Ultramarines is good. It requires skill to use effectively, but if used at the right time you can swing the tide of a battle. The Tactical doctrine is very powerful, the Devastator is also good when joining battle lines for the improvement to Overwatch and when having to re position Devastators. The Assault squad is good for last ditch attacks. More than anything, it favours a well balanced army, making it so that you'll get the best use out of all of them. And don't forget that the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics unlocks for you one of the best characters in the Codex, Tigurius. With Storm of Fire, and Divination powers, and MC3 with re-rolls on psychic tests, psychic selection etc, and costing less than Sicarius, I think we'll see this guy on the battlefield a lot, which means Ultramarines tactics will be used a lot.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

It is worth mentioning that Raven Guard are actually fairly bad IMO. The Scout and turn1 Stealth does NOT apply to: Terminators, Bikers, Assault Marines, Centurions, Thunderfires OR any vehicles at all (remember, no Vehicles have Chapter Tactics- Iron Hands is the exception due to specific inclusion). Outflanking Stormtalons would have been boss but as it stands... fail.

This means the Scout and Stealth applies to... Tacticals, Devastators, Sterns, Foot-Vanguards, Foot-Command and HonorGuard (Scouts had it anyway). That's fairly underwhelming. All of the things you would have wanted to Outflank with your Scout are unable. Outflanking Tacticals is cute but hardly as good as any of the other Chapter Traits


As far as Chapter Strengths in order of competitiveness IMO:

1) White Scars (don't even need Bikers-- Hit&Run on a Shooting Army is just that good. Remember IC with H&R will give it to an Allied BattleBrother)
2) Imperial Fists (Also Kantor Sternguard Army lies here)
3) Ultramarines (Highly ranked due to Tigurius unlock; also, Tigurius attached to an IG blob is insane, 4++ has way high probability)
4) Black Templar (Ranked this high Solely due to both Heavy & Special allowed for only 5-man unit, very min-max)
5) Salamander (Solid, solid choice as always but still requires Vulkan for full potential)
6) Iron Hands (so marginal, most tanks are killed outright)
7) Raven Guard

[Excubitor]

Vehicles can't take tactics, true...but Scout on a squad affects their dedicated transport.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Vehicles can't take tactics, true...but Scout on a squad affects their dedicated transport.

Very true good point, but not many competitive lists are running Terminators in a Land Raider.

 

Additionally, if Scout is absolutely required for your plan of battle then you should simply play White Scars and take Khan. Then you get the best of both, and also now your AttackBikes outflank too.  It seems like Raven Guard's only tiny niche is for Outflanking PowerArmor dudes on foot.

[Excubitor]

I was think more melta/Plasma gun tacticals in a lascannon/assault cannon Razorback...or same for a command squad if they FAQ the special weapons.

 

But you make a good point with Khan. I guess since I run several types of lists I see uses in all of them (Scout list - RG, gunline - IF, mech - IH or WS etc.). I also wasn't taking into consideration special characters.

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines Doctrines are good, but what makes them nasty is the chance to use the Tactical Doctrine multiple times (in essence) a game. How I hear you ask? Well, Tigurius, for example, has the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait, and can get access to Prescience. This means it's entirely possible for you to use the Tactical Doctrine one turn, Storm of Fire the next, and Prescience and other Divination powers to bolster both turns.

 

The relentless efficiency of such a move would apply constant pressure on an opponent potentially.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Another reason Ultramarines are better than appears is that Devastators can begin the game behind BLOS terrain, then move into view. Great way to avoid damage before they let loose.

 

Funny how 3 Chapters all have direct boost Devs now. Ultras as mentioned, ImpFists as obvious, and RavenGuard at least give them turn1 Stealth. Now that I think about it, Salamanders on a Skyshield for combatting Heldrakes as well, so call it 4 Chapters boosting Devs.

 

Add all that to the drop in Devs cost... mmm.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Keep your Devastators.  I'm rebuilding my Dreadnought corps.  Two Ironclads with dual heavy flamers and two Venerables with multi-meltas, all in drop pods, backed by Tacticals with plasma and grav guns.

 

 

Until I get that built, though, it's Razor-spam and a Land Raider for me.

[DarkGuard]

Ultramarines Doctrines are good, but what makes them nasty is the chance to use the Tactical Doctrine multiple times (in essence) a game. How I hear you ask? Well, Tigurius, for example, has the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait, and can get access to Prescience. This means it's entirely possible for you to use the Tactical Doctrine one turn, Storm of Fire the next, and Prescience and other Divination powers to bolster both turns.

 

The relentless efficiency of such a move would apply constant pressure on an opponent potentially.

 

All of which make Tigurius one of the best characters in the game. The sheer amount of support he can give it amazing, and he doesn't even cost that much.

[templargdt]

I seriously doubt any special character is going to be run as much as Tigger.  He's insanely good for his point cost.  I'd take him if he was still W2 and for some reason they gave him W3, I guess to make up for the fact he probably was last seen on a table top circa early 2008. 

 

Back to the OP, I can't see ranking non-biking White Scars so highly as Citadel did.  Yes, Hit and Run is nice.  You don't have a great chance of pulling it off against most opponents, and against anything I'd consider assaulting with a tactical squad, I wouldn't H&R out anyway.  The only exception I can think of is a Riptide.  How did I catch it on foot?

 

Hiding Devs behind LoS terrain and then moving out first turn to shoot is a neat trick, hadn't thought of that one.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Marines is a shooting codex. Versus Tyranids, Daemons, IG-blobs, and various other melee stuff it is very important that you extract yourself from combat right before it is about to be your turn so that you can shoot whatever it is.

Hit&Run is not a rule meant for a melee army, it is a rule that primarily benefits a shooting army.

Example: Flyrant charges a Tactical squad, Sarge challenges then gets eaten leaving the other dudes alive. You then roll your Initiative check (66% success) and the remaining guys get free, allowing you to blast the Flyrant.

Example: Your attackbike squad charges an IG blob squad. Then in your melee turn and in his turn, the blob has to consolidate into melee, crunching itself into a tight package. At the end of your opponent's melee, you Hit&Run away so that in your following shooting phase, you can drop templates on the tightened blob

[Custodian Athiair]

As far as Ive read it we only get to re-roll armour saves, as such a Helldrake will still burn anything but our terminators to the ground.

 

However Ive personally never had much luck with flamers, unable to get more than 50% of the squad in the template and only if im lucky getting two kills.

Maybe I should have more faith in flamers now... Ive got a friendly tournament coming up, might try out the flamers then...

[Kastor Krieg]

As far as Ive read it we only get to re-roll armour saves, as such a Helldrake will still burn anything but our terminators to the ground.

 

However Ive personally never had much luck with flamers, unable to get more than 50% of the squad in the template and only if im lucky getting two kills.

Maybe I should have more faith in flamers now... Ive got a friendly tournament coming up, might try out the flamers then...

No, all saving throws from FLAME weapons "as defined by BRB" (which can be read as "Flame_R_ Weapons table only" or "anything that uses a flame Template"). And put your guys on a Skyshield, for that rerollable 4++ goodness vs. Kentucky Fried Chaos.

[Ishagu]

Everyone talks about hit and run... but Calgar unlocks the ability to pass or fail morale checks at will army wide... you can't overlook that ability!

[DarkGuard]

I seriously doubt any special character is going to be run as much as Tigger.  He's insanely good for his point cost.  I'd take him if he was still W2 and for some reason they gave him W3, I guess to make up for the fact he probably was last seen on a table top circa early 2008. 

 

Back to the OP, I can't see ranking non-biking White Scars so highly as Citadel did.  Yes, Hit and Run is nice.  You don't have a great chance of pulling it off against most opponents, and against anything I'd consider assaulting with a tactical squad, I wouldn't H&R out anyway.  The only exception I can think of is a Riptide.  How did I catch it on foot?

 

Hiding Devs behind LoS terrain and then moving out first turn to shoot is a neat trick, hadn't thought of that one.

 

Hit and Run uses an Initiative test, not a Sweeping Advance test. With an Initiative test, you only have to roll equal to or lower than your units Initiative, the enemy doesn't factor into it. So for Marines, we'll be passing it 2/3rds of the time, that's pretty significant for a shooty army that wants to keep out of combat. That's why Hit and Run is so good. It keeps our best units out of assault. Hit and Run as a rule is actually pretty bad for assault armies, its golden for shooty armies though. More like Get Hit then Run. ;)

 

Totally agree about Tigurius, which means Ultramarines will be one of the most used Chapter Tactics.

 

 

Everyone talks about hit and run... but Calgar unlocks the ability to pass or fail morale checks at will army wide... you can't overlook that ability!

 

Calgar unlocks it at a price of more than a Land Raider. And then you need to get him a hitty retinue, and then likely put him in a Land Raider so he can hit things. Otherwise he's a lot of points for what is a glorified banner. Hit and Run, on the other hand, costs nothing, and you aren't locked into using a specific character to unlock the ability.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

very interesting read.

 

I agree that the

UM tactics appears to be best with use of Tiggy

 

My order would be..

1) Ultramarine

2) White Scares

3) Imperial Fist

4) Black Templar

5) Iron Hands

6) Salamanders

7) Raven

[The thousand son]

Wow, I guess I rate things very differently from the rest of you. I have plenty of meltas in my army. I love Vulkan.

But more than anything, mastercrafted chracter-weapons? That is brilliant. It´s every powerfist and thunderhammer (outside termies), its the relic blade, its the combi-plasmas.... wow. I really cannot understand peoples low rate on sallies tacs...