Best Chapter Tactics?

[Excubitor]

Devastator Centurions with tank hunter (from IF traits) just walking around seems better to me. At least 4 strong, with lascannons and the omniscope, is 4 twin-linked lascannons firing at 2 different targets with tank hunter - it's going to hurt a couple tanks a turn.

 

As far as the UM tactics with drop pods go...just remember that they cannot get relentless the turn they disembark from a transport.

 

I agree with CAG, I feel that drop pod devs are always a bad idea. You may as well get a command squad with 5 meltaguns/plasmaguns in a pod for less and be more likely to actually do something when they arrive. Or a dreadnought.

 

Multi-melta devs I think actually go ok with the RG tactics or WS with Khan - they get that scout move to get them up the field a bit more and into a more dangerous position.

[Arufel87]

I'm loving the IH chapter tactics and think they will bring a return to vehicles in Marine armies. I think IWND is the clincher because AV13+ becomes that much more reliable. The only thing that I can think of to take out a wall of them would be a few melta suicide squads however how many of them do you usually see in a TAC list these days? 

[infornography]

Even disregarding that you are spending a first turn drop pod on the tactic and they are going to be snap shooting the turn they arrive, Drop pod devs are not super durable and a high priority target.  They are often going to get burned down (sometimes literally if there is a hell chicken around) before hitting a single thing.

 

I think las cannons are worth those extra points since you can hide them in your back lines and take shots at full BS from turn 1 without taking one of the first turn drop pod slots.

 

4 las cannons can do a pretty good number on most tanks.

[Captain Idaho]

Lascannons are really good for Imperial Fists Devastator squads.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

I really don't think any particular army has a massive advantage overall, although as we should expect certain CT's are better for certain army types (Scars for bikes, IF for gunline, IH for armor). Templars are the only ones who really suffer because all their CTs and all their characters are assault based (as they should be), but for some reason GW thinks assault needs to be nerfed as hard as possible. (seriously a storm raven gets assault vehicle but Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks all apparently have their doors welded shut?)

[shandwen]

I really believe that WS and IH are the best, with ultra marines being poor but better by characters. For IF, salamanders and Ravenguard it will take a while to figure out. Black templar just don't fit with the edition. But ravenguard will have a mean attack with outflanking flamebacks and assualtcannon backs. I saw how great an outflanking rhino of stearngaurd worked yesterday, and will not underestimate them.

[Captain Idaho]

The traits looked in isolation don't give the full picture as to their effectiveness. The Ultramarines one, for example, appears to be no where near as powerful as the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands or White Scars Traits, but there is one crucial difference that elevates it into a decent choice - you can build a broader list with it and still benefit from the Trait. Without Devastators and Heavy Bolter Tactical Marines, what is the point in the Imperial Fists Trait? ;)

[Brother Captain Andrew]

The traits looked in isolation don't give the full picture as to their effectiveness. The Ultramarines one, for example, appears to be no where near as powerful as the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands or White Scars Traits, but there is one crucial difference that elevates it into a decent choice - you can build a broader list with it and still benefit from the Trait. Without Devastators and Heavy Bolter Tactical Marines, what is the point in the Imperial Fists Trait?

Yeah, I've been kicking around Ultra and Fist lists. For a tailored basic IF list it can be really powerful, but if you are taking Kantor and Sternguard it means a wide swath of your army isn't using the benefits of your CT. Ultras on the other hand work for basically any unit any shooting unit makes good use of Tactical and Devastator Doctrines and that big charge you have to make is immensely helpful. Ultras appear to be less powerful, but it is all about choosing your spots, devastator doctrine at the right time can make a massive difference if you're going to get charged, and tactical can be insane when you have to take something out (see my post in the new tac squad thread for my best example)

[Stickeh]

I think timing is more of a factor with the UM chapter tactics as well. Do you use tactical doctrine first turn, so more models will benefit, or wait for the perfect moment, which may never come and result in you missing the opportunity to use it. It's the same for devestator doctrine as well, do you use it first turn to put your devs into better position or wait until the turn before a charge to benefit from over watch rerolls?

[minigun762]

I think timing is more of a factor with the UM chapter tactics as well. Do you use tactical doctrine first turn, so more models will benefit, or wait for the perfect moment, which may never come and result in you missing the opportunity to use it. It's the same for devestator doctrine as well, do you use it first turn to put your devs into better position or wait until the turn before a charge to benefit from over watch rerolls?

 

My rule of thumb is to use it at the first good chance. Don't hold up waiting for the perfect situation, as that may never arrive.

[crazyterran]

Ultramarines w/ IF allies is my 2000pt list. 4 Lascannon Devs getting Tiggy to cast Prescience and/or joining them to cast ignore cover is pretty swell, imo.

[Lysere]

 

 

Here is a thought,

Does IF make for a better drop pod Dev squad with 4x Multi Melta than either Salamander or UM?

 

I think tank hunter might be worth more than rerolls to hit or Relentless on turns after you pod in.

I still think UM is the best for a drop podding dev squad. Relentless after drop podding in behind cover, allowing you to move your dev squad into position for board control AND[/b[ fire that turn is priceless. For static devs Fists really are the way to go (particularly with Lascannon or Plasma Cannons), but if your podding them in you need the dev squad to be someplace where something with Interceptor (read:Riptide) can't blow your guys off the table before they even have a chance to fire.

Ehhh, I mean... UM for Drop-Devs is cute but I think that any Drop-Devs at all are still a dead-in-the-water idea. If anyone decides to drop Devs, then they either take up valuable "Turn 1" allotment of 50% DP Arrival, or else they end up waiting T2+ (in which case, they won't fire at full-BS until T3 which is simply terrible).

 

Just so inefficient--- I just don't see Drop-Devs of any faction ever being a good idea. Same as how a Hail Mary pass is not a good idea; sometimes you get the miracle but most of the times it ends up... poorly.

 

If only devs could take Heavy Flamers. Its good yet weird that they had a Tactical squad in the WD that had a heavy flamer but then decided to not let tacs take em. I think devs should've been able to though because then even sallies would always have a use for em. I suppose you could take the LoTD but not sure if they even worth it right now.

[infornography]

heavy flamers are not worth it on LotD because they can fire plasma cannons that ignore cover while on the move.  I would not trade that capability for a weapon that normally can be fired on the move and ignores cover.  Seems like a waste of crazy good potential.

[Rhetoricus]

The whole chapter tactics and death of counts as irks me a little. As a player I want options. Now if I don't use centurions or dev's im shooting myself in the foot. I would like to able to field an entirely 1st company force. In the last dex I could just about get away with this (kantorguard and termies) with a couple of scout squads to fill the troop choices (I wasn't overly thrilled about having to field these)

 

Now I pretty much have to attach scouts AND dev's. Also the kantorguard element will get minimal benefit from Bolter Drill, which I don't rate all that highly anyway. 

 

Basically my old company gets about 0 benefit from the new chapter tactics. Im now pushed into a 1st, 9th and 10th company force, a large portion of which (SG's) still get no benefit from my CT's.

 

I would very much like there to be a way for any chapter to field a purely first company force. Without compromising their CT's.

 

But i'll deal I guess.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Maybe you could find a way to incorporate Deathwing?  If you allied in Belial or Azrael, then you could have a unit of scoring Terminators.  As Crimson Hand is an IF tactics chapter, you could also field a character who the Sternguard count as troops can't you?  I could easily stomach the idea that D-Centurions are a First Company kind of unit.  I can't think of anything for the scouts.  It's not optimal, but so often you have to choose between optimal and true-to-fluff.

[Ming]

I was in a 3-game 1750 point tournament on Saturday.  I used a Tiggy list (and of course Ultramarine Tactics).  Shiny Rhino used a White Scars/Kahn Biker List.   

 

The other gamers were IG, Necrons, Chaos Marines with Daemon Allies, and All Daemon (Tszentch).

 

White Scars won first.

 

Demons second

 

Necrons or chaos marines third/fourth

 

Ultras were fifth

 

IG was last.

 

White scars beat Necrons and IG, lost to Daemons.

 

I lost to necrons and daemons, but beat Chaos Marines.

 

As a note, the Daemon and Necron lists were very similar in construction at the top level, having about 45% or more spent on T5-6-7, multiwound models that are great in assault.

 

The major differences characterizing a Kahn list from a Tiggy list - bikers are all T5, very mobile, great on short range firepower.  When you are fighting lower S opponents, T5 is the best way to go.  The Tiggy list (to try out the tactics) had tactical, assault, and devastator squads, backed by terminators and hardware.  Not as mobile, all T4.  I'd say both lists had similar amounts of high S special weapons.  Where the Ultras list struggled was in assault vs the higher T assaulting units, whom often had AP1-2-3 weapons en masse. 

 

So, yeah, in my local meta, I'm expecting White Scars bike armies to rule the day for a while.  They get all the stuff you need right now - fast, high T, access to lots of special weapons, ability to better fall back out of combat, and that spells victory.  It also means alot less to remember or select/apply....but that is an article for my blog sometime soon...

[Rhetoricus]

Maybe you could find a way to incorporate Deathwing?  If you allied in Belial or Azrael, then you could have a unit of scoring Terminators.  As Crimson Hand is an IF tactics chapter, you could also field a character who the Sternguard count as troops can't you?  I could easily stomach the idea that D-Centurions are a First Company kind of unit.  I can't think of anything for the scouts.  It's not optimal, but so often you have to choose between optimal and true-to-fluff.

 

"Centurion pilots are not chosen from

the ranks of lst Company, but are hand-picked from the

Chapter's Assault and Devastator brethren. The most

frequent explanation for this is that a Cenntrion's role

requires a Space Marine to be fully immersed in a particular

style of war, whilst the bulky exosuits lack the degree of

tactical flexibility that the Chapter's Veterans require"

 

As to the scoring stern guard, yeah you're right. Kantor (counts as Vladimir Pugh) means my stern guard are scoring, which is great. But because 9 times out of ten they will be firing special ammo they wont benefit from Bolter Drill. Which isnt great. The problem only compounds when you consider how expensive sternguard are (less bolters overall in the rest of the force = even less Bolter Drill) 

 

Bottom line. Sternguard make Bolter Drill bad.

 

Don't get me wrong I still love the 7th and think that overall the new dex is fab. Its just causing my (very specific) army some headaches and difficult choices.

 

I just can't justify not including devs so im gonna have to scrap the idea of the 1st (with scout support) 

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

But isn't every member of the 1st Company picked from some other company when they get pulled into 1st Company?  Vanguard are picked from assault companies for example.  Sternguard are picked from tacticals or devastators.  etc.  I could see your chapter deciding that being one of these hand picked people from another company to drive a Centurion means a transfer to 1st Company.  If that was how you want to go.

[Rhetoricus]

Its definitely an angle I could (may well) take. Thanks. Something else i'm toying with is storm bolters on sternguard. Trying to maximize bolter drill. The math seems to suggest paying 50 points to make the stern guard less effective though (even with bolter drill) so i'm not sure about this at the mo. 

 

A full rapid firing volley of vengeance rounds will kill about 3 times as many MEQ's as a storm bolter drill for example.

[minigun762]

Its definitely an angle I could (may well) take. Thanks. Something else i'm toying with is storm bolters on sternguard. Trying to maximize bolter drill. The math seems to suggest paying 50 points to make the stern guard less effective though (even with bolter drill) so i'm not sure about this at the mo. 

 

A full rapid firing volley of vengeance rounds will kill about 3 times as many MEQ's as a storm bolter drill for example.

 

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Tac Terminators would be a better option than SB Sternguard. Yes the Sternguard are cheaper but Terminators are more durable and you're not wasting that awesome special ammo.

[Rhetoricus]

 

Its definitely an angle I could (may well) take. Thanks. Something else i'm toying with is storm bolters on sternguard. Trying to maximize bolter drill. The math seems to suggest paying 50 points to make the stern guard less effective though (even with bolter drill) so i'm not sure about this at the mo. 

 

A full rapid firing volley of vengeance rounds will kill about 3 times as many MEQ's as a storm bolter drill for example.

 

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think Tac Terminators would be a better option than SB Sternguard. Yes the Sternguard are cheaper but Terminators are more durable and you're not wasting that awesome special ammo.

 

You surely did. I realize now that you were spot on. I thought bolter drill was much more powerful than it actually is.

 

I mean you would expect that paying 50 points to "upgrade" your squad would make them much more of a threat. Even more so when the "upgrade" appears to play nice with your chapter tactics.  Just don't get whats going on here. Even if storm bolters were assault 3 weapons (and taking bolter drill into account), vengeance rounds would still perform better against MEQ's.

[minigun762]

I mean you would expect that paying 50 points to "upgrade" your squad would make them much more of a threat. Even more so when the "upgrade" appears to play nice with your chapter tactics.  Just don't get whats going on here. Even if storm bolters were assault 3 weapons (and taking bolter drill into account), vengeance rounds would still perform better against MEQ's.

 

I don't understand why Storm Bolters are treated they way they are. As simple swap, I could maybe see them being worthwhile.

That said, I think they make a good addition to a Relic Blade HQ unit, especially as an IF player. BS5 and IF tactics gives you a true twin link effect.

[Rhetoricus]

I don't understand? You mean on a captain or master? 

[minigun762]

I don't understand? You mean on a captain or master? 

 

Yeah, either or. You'll likely give the Captain a Relic Blade as the Master will probably get more expensive gear.

[Deus de Mortalis]

minigun762, that is a really good idea for a cheap yet effective IF/CF captain.

 

Also I believe that bolter drill isn't as good in the real world as it looks on paper. I don't know what kind of games you guys play, but in my experience it is special and heavy weapons that carry most of my army's shooting. Bolter drill re-roll's 1's to hit, and that gives you a 16.7% increase in hits with BS4. A 16.7% increase in hits with bolters isn't going to make or break anything. It is a nice little bonus, but nothing to build a list around.

 

However, I do think that IF/CF devastators with heavy bolters are extremely effective for their points cost. Because not only do they hit more often and have a lot of shots, but they have tank hunters. They would be great vs any AV10 and AV11, and are even useful against flyers.