Best Chapter Tactics?

[DarkGuard]

 

Marines is a shooting codex. Versus Tyranids, Daemons, IG-blobs, and various other melee stuff it is very important that you extract yourself from combat right before it is about to be your turn so that you can shoot whatever it is.

 

Hit&Run is not a rule meant for a melee army, it is a rule that primarily benefits a shooting army.

 

Example: Flyrant charges a Tactical squad, Sarge challenges then gets eaten leaving the other dudes alive. You then roll your Initiative check (66% success) and the remaining guys get free, allowing you to blast the Flyrant.

 

Example: Your attackbike squad charges an IG blob squad. Then in your melee turn and in his turn, the blob has to consolidate into melee, crunching itself into a tight package. At the end of your opponent's melee, you Hit&Run away so that in your following shooting phase, you can drop templates on the tightened blob

 

<Checks rule book> Yeah, it is an initiative test.  I thought of it like the old combat tactics.  Yes, that is very, very good to save your rear from things like Demon Princes, etc.  I still wouldn't rate that higher than Imperial Fists though.  As good as Iron Hands?  Not sure.  If you're running some bikers, yeah, I'd say better.  Definitely better than IH if you're running Khan.

 

I'd love to see an IH armor gunline behind an Aegis line duke it out with a scars list to see who comes out on top.  I think if it's biker scars, they probably win.  If it's Rhino born tacs, I think they probably lose.

 

The skyshield trick with the Sallies is nice, I hadn't thought of that.  But I'm skeptical.  You're still trying to shoot down AV 12 with STR 7 (roughly .67 HP/turn per 4 missile launcher squad.)  Oh, and your target has IWND on 3 HP.  If I'm running missile devastators for Flak, I'm taking Fists for tank hunters.  But I may look into buying a skyshield whenever I go to my next tournament. 

 

As much as I like the IH and IF tactics, I'm actually going to try out UM first, because I think Tigger is so incredibly good.  I'll be surprised if I ever run across a competitive UM list running anything besides him.  (I want to like Calgar, but I play around 1500 points.  I don't know what level I'd feel comfortable playing him at.  2K I guess.)

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Coming from someone who loved Combat Tactics, Hit and Run is very powerful.

 

I do agree with Tiggy though. He is too good, and him alone bumps Ultramarine tactics up IMO.

[Axagoras]

Ok has anyone here talking about running 6 dread lists ACTUALLY ran 6 dread lists. I mean no disrespect but I have, Ive ran them many times. From mostly on foot to massive pod lists, Even throwing in contemptors. It all very situational on what list you play but in the current meta of tau and eldar they drop like flies. Salvosides will drop a ironclad/contemptor in 1 salvo, wave serpents will throw their complement into a ven dread and glance him down in 1 turn, and Doom scythes popping 2 in 1 turn. IWND would not of helped me at all in most of my games. when I run 6 dread lists and lost i usually lose a dread to 2 a turn. If IWND could be taken after being wrecked I wouldnt be typing this but it cant. And in my experiences my dreadnought will die in 1 turn of being shot it especially now with IWND.

[Captain Idaho]

It was an example of how to fit large amounts of vehicles into a list.

 

In actual fact the armies you described would burn any other Space Marines list to the ground too, not just Iron Hands.

 

You can have less Dreads and still benefit from It Will Not Die with other vehicles. Beating the aforementioned Tau and Eldar cheese is a place for another tactica altogether! ;)

[infornography]

As a veteran player of Tyranids with MCs using regen I can tell you one thing I have seen happen that has resulted in me never ever taking regen anymore.

 

If you have big targets with regen on them, your enemy will be encouraged to burn down targets one at a time rather than being satisfied with removing a few wounds and then aiming at things that are closer to other units.  Most players will hit around each unit firing at whatever they have the best line of sight on or is closest to being a serious threat to them.  This is less the case the more skilled the player is, but it is something that happens to some degree even with very skilled players.  They hit around allowing more of your army to survive.  If everything has the ability to regen they will suddenly pay more attention to this and burn things down with more purposeful concentration. 

 

The result of this is that you encourage your enemies to play better in order to deny you an additional advantage you would have if they didn't. 

 

Many of you are thinking about that land raider that hung on for several turns damaged with only one or two hull points.  What you don't realize is that if that land raider had IWND your enemy would have been more focused on it's destruction.  They wouldn't have diverted a dev squad to shooting down a nearby speeder, they would finish the job before refocusing on a new target.

 

For that reason, I don't think the IH got a good deal.  If it was 5+ FNP it would be decent, but as is, it is just weak in comparison.

[WarriorFish]

A very good point, but don't forget that there are those out there who love Dreadnoughts and want them to be better no matter what it takes... :P

 

For what it's worth (or if anyone cares) I've settled on UM tactics for my Chapter. More suitable for them and lets me keep using my couple of converted counts-as characters, so I'll just have to keep my Techmarines handy to try and keep my Dreads fighting and pray for the Omnissiah's blessings. Counts-as is dead, long live the counts-as-chapter.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@Info:  Yes, you're right.  IWND will convince some players not to spread their anti-tank fire around, but to instead focus down on each AV-bearing unit until it is absolutely dead before moving on to the next target.  Does this prevent us from using IWND?  Sure.  But there's a silver lining to this cloud, too, even if its not readily apparent.

 

I've witnessed many a game where someone shot at a Land Raider and Immobilized it, and moved on to a different target.  Or pulled a Weapon Destroyed on a Vindicator, killing the Demolisher cannon, and then moved to shoot at something else.  Sometimes, when they shift targets, they'll get another mobility kill or blow up a Rhino or some such.  The point is, when a player spreads out his firing, he increases his chances of doing significant harm not only to your army, but to your plan.  A Land Raider that can't move can't deliver that death star melee unit, can it?  Those grav guns are of no use sitting in the wreckage of their Rhino in your own deployment zone, right?

 

What IWND is doing -- what Regen did with your Nids -- is that it turns every single vehicle unit in your army into a fire magnet.  We've all known since 6th Edition hit that the only way armor survives is if you have a lot of it, and IWND is going to make that concept better since our armor can now heal itself.  Plus, with the heavier armor -- 13 and 14, specifically -- their life expectancy has increased by virtue of the fact that melta is no longer the weapon of the day.  Everybody's gone plasma, which literally cannot hurt AV14 and can only glance AV13 (hull points?  We can heal those!).  So while the enemy is going to focus down on, say, my Vindicator on Turn 1 in order to make sure it dies and stays dead, that gives an entire turn of moving and shooting free of enemy attention to the whole rest of my armored company.

[Molokai]

@Deus. Well said. This is exactly what I thought but couldn't phrase it as well as you did.

[Grizzly_bear]

I'm just happy my chapter got ther preferred enemy rules against orks, means my scouring sterngaurd can re roll 1's on their special ammo whilst the rest of the army are re rolling bolter shots and my heavy bolter devs have more of a boost to blow up trukks now too

[d@n]

Venerable Dreadnoughts, Iron Clads and most tanks will be a hard nut to crack when used in numbers in Iron Hands armies. You can get 6 Venerable Dreadnoughts with assault cannons for 870pts, as a plain example.

 

Let's not forget Storm Ravens are vehicles too.

 

The Feel No Pain is just a little added bonus to frustrate opponents.

 

If I'm honest I don't know what else people expect their army to do on top of that?

just imagine 60 scouts for less then 700 points, having a 6+ fnp donst look that bad

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I'm just happy my chapter got ther preferred enemy rules against orks, means my scouring sterngaurd can re roll 1's on their special ammo whilst the rest of the army are re rolling bolter shots and my heavy bolter devs have more of a boost to blow up trukks now too

Crimson Fists are gonna be an ace-in-the-hole for when the new Ork codex drops. As it stands, Sternguard rerolling 1s to hit then wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s... Orks are gonna have a bad time.  Too bad Cassius doesn't give Army-wide Preferred Enemy: Tyranids.... might have finally seen him on the table! Especially since rumors are bugs coming this winter.

 

Really sad that Chaplains are all worthless now. Would have been neat for at least someone's Chapter Tactic to give Chaplains a nod

[Grizzly_bear]

 

 

I'm just happy my chapter got ther preferred enemy rules against orks, means my scouring sterngaurd can re roll 1's on their special ammo whilst the rest of the army are re rolling bolter shots and my heavy bolter devs have more of a boost to blow up trukks now too

Crimson Fists are gonna be an ace-in-the-hole for when the new Ork codex drops. As it stands, Sternguard rerolling 1s to hit then wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s... Orks are gonna have a bad time. Too bad Cassius doesn't give Army-wide Preferred Enemy: Tyranids.... might have finally seen him on the table! Especially since rumors are bugs coming this winter.

 

Really sad that Chaplains are all worthless now. Would have been neat for at least someone's Chapter Tactic to give Chaplains a nod

I think chaplains still have a reason to be in lists. Take the imperial/crimson fists Bolter drill,

 

You'll have 10 assault marines jumping into combat with re rolling 1's with their bolt pistols, HAmmer of wrath straight away, hatred, re rolling to hit, plus the ability to take the special equipment on top of the special issue wargear.

 

I think chaplains are still viable in this codex.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Not to derail the thread, but Chaplains as force-multipliers are really poor efficiency when compared to Librarians. Then when you look at them as melee-characters, they are FAR outpaced now by Masters/Captains because there is only the 2-wound Chaplain now, the 'Reclusiarch' statlined Chaplain is gone.

 

On top of that, Assault Marines are bad under the current meta. I use them all the time but only because as Blood Angel at the very least they Score, and even then I understand their value on the table is fairly inefficient.

 

The other codicies with Chaplains have access to Prescience Librarians which are superior, no contest.

 

So the SM Chaplain is 90pts minimum, and they lost their discount-powerfist unlock too. Final nail in the coffin? Banner of the Emperor Ascendant now exists for 25pts cheaper AND its better because its a bubble not just the attached unit.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Axagoras, on 10 Sept 2013 - 02:42, said:

Like I said before dan a 6+ fnp only helps for every 18 wounds we suffer

You are thinking about it the wrong way. It reduces unsaved wounds by 1/6.

[Brother Xeones]

I have to agree with some of the others who say that the Iron Hands chapter tactics are pretty decent. The may not be on par with some of the top pics, but for anyone who wants to run dreadnoughts and other vehicles, it's a nice boost. Venerable dreadnoughts are much cheaper now than they were. Combine that with the fact that techmarines are not competing with superior elite choices and you've got a pretty nice setup.

 

A friend of mine had a list with a bunch of shooty Venerable dreads and a MotF with servitors in a Redeemer. First of all, with the drop in points for dreadnoughts, speeders, servitors, stock tactical squads...

...pretty much everything in his list, he had over 200 points extra compared with the previous codex. Couple that with IWND and techmarines that can repair anything that didn't make their IWND roll, and you've got a really tough list. I'm not really looking forward to an AV 14 vehicle with 2 AP3 flamers and IWND with a MoTF and servitors tucked inside for an additional auto-repair hull point, weapon destroyed or immobilized.

 

I'm not really saying that this is broken or that it's even the most competitive option out there, but I have to respect how much better this build got with the drop in points and the addition of IWND to all his models with an AV.

 

For me, I'm mostly just happy that any chapter tactic is no longer tied to a special character and with the inclusion of the relic wargear section, you can really personalize your stock HQs to make some really noteworthy characters of your own.

[Captain Idaho]

I still think we are suffering a little fall out from the surprisingly negative reaction to Codex Space Marines and as the tournaments go on we'll see Iron Hands do much better than people want to think.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I don't think anyone will argue that Iron Hands isn't awesome if you already happen to want to play mass quantities of AV.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that if you want to play lots of AV, then IH is the Chapter that does it best.

 

Iron Hands is even the best chapter for building the "one-man deathstar" Chapter Master: 220pts for 2+/3++, T5(bike), W4, EW, 6+FNP, IWND then add melee weapon of choice.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that everyone got a huge boost FOR FREE or even cheaper compared to last book.

 

The thread is for discussing which Chapter came out "appearing" to be the most competitive (no one has had thorough playtesting yet for definitive statements, only opinions). Not that I'm directly attacking your comments Xeones, I'm just highlighting that we are all trying to predict the future on which chapter will become 'top dog'

 

 

And if I'm honest, I think Ultramarines will end up seeing more tournament appearances than anyone else. Tigurious is just that good, attached to Chapter Tactics that are actually quite good too.

[templargdt]

+1 to what Citadel said.  Tigger is ridiculously good for his points. 

[Brother Xeones]

The thread is for discussing which Chapter came out "appearing" to be the most competitive (no one has had thorough playtesting yet for definitive statements, only opinions). Not that I'm directly attacking your comments Xeones, I'm just highlighting that we are all trying to predict the future on which chapter will become 'top dog'

No offense taken. I think it's just my different take on the topic we are discussing. The "best" chapter tactic to me, is situational on what kind of build you are running. If, in the case of IHs, you have a large number of AV units, it can be an excellent choice. If by "best" you mean "most competitive" I won't argue that most competitive (ie tournament take-all-comers builds in 6th edition will not be running huge numbers of dreadnoughts or other vehicles.

 

If by the "best" chapter tactic, you mean the set of tactics that is likely to be the most effective for the most number of different army builds, then I'd say you'll automatically gravitate toward either UMs, WSs, or IFs. But, even here there are optimal builds to benefit from their respective traits. Ultras can use Tigger, White Scars can bring Khan and bikes, and Imperial Fists should probably be bringing some Devs in order to benefit from the Tank Hunters Half of their tactic.

[WarriorFish]

While the access to special characters is a fair point, wouldn't it be better to discuss the merits of the Chapter Tactics alone? That is the topic's title and I feel probably a better way to look at them, especially with the relics now making custom character builds much better. That and factoring in special characters makes it more complicated with all the variations.

 

Where has there been a negative reaction to the codex? I thought most were pretty pleased with it, I'm quite happy with how it has turned out. Unless you're referring to certain "elements" of the hobby who love to complain about C:SM... or maybe just love to complain in general. Hard to tell sometimes.

[Nusquam]

Think about all these Chapter tactics, what they can do. Now think about what future supplements will do to benefits these...

 

My mouth is watering.

[Reinholt]

While Ultramarines may be the most common, and Tigurius is fantastic, I don't think they will see the most success at tournaments.

 

That army will be White Scars. They are a counter to a lot of things that are good in the current meta (Tau are going to get wrecked by majority biker armies that don't care about difficult terrain because there will be no way for them to avoid assault, as an example), and they can still take Tigurius in an allied detachment. UM are a force multiplier and are good. White Scars can be great at some of the things that the good stuff in the meta will find most problematic.

 

I also happen to think, as a result, WS are the best overall. The Khan + Chapter Tactics + Bike-based army (as bikes are one of the best troops choices in the game bar none with their points reduction) + potential allies is the power build of this SM edition.

[minigun762]

Here is a thought,

Does IF make for a better drop pod Dev squad with 4x Multi Melta than either Salamander or UM?

 

I think tank hunter might be worth more than rerolls to hit or Relentless on turns after you pod in.

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Here is a thought,

Does IF make for a better drop pod Dev squad with 4x Multi Melta than either Salamander or UM?

 

I think tank hunter might be worth more than rerolls to hit or Relentless on turns after you pod in.

I still think UM is the best for a drop podding dev squad. Relentless after drop podding in behind cover, allowing you to move your dev squad into position for board control AND[/b[ fire that turn is priceless. For static devs Fists really are the way to go (particularly with Lascannon or Plasma Cannons), but if your podding them in you need the dev squad to be someplace where something with Interceptor (read:Riptide) can't blow your guys off the table before they even have a chance to fire.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

 

Here is a thought,

Does IF make for a better drop pod Dev squad with 4x Multi Melta than either Salamander or UM?

 

I think tank hunter might be worth more than rerolls to hit or Relentless on turns after you pod in.

I still think UM is the best for a drop podding dev squad. Relentless after drop podding in behind cover, allowing you to move your dev squad into position for board control AND[/b[ fire that turn is priceless. For static devs Fists really are the way to go (particularly with Lascannon or Plasma Cannons), but if your podding them in you need the dev squad to be someplace where something with Interceptor (read:Riptide) can't blow your guys off the table before they even have a chance to fire.

Ehhh, I mean... UM for Drop-Devs is cute but I think that any Drop-Devs at all are still a dead-in-the-water idea. If anyone decides to drop Devs, then they either take up valuable "Turn 1" allotment of 50% DP Arrival, or else they end up waiting T2+ (in which case, they won't fire at full-BS until T3 which is simply terrible).

 

Just so inefficient--- I just don't see Drop-Devs of any faction ever being a good idea. Same as how a Hail Mary pass is not a good idea; sometimes you get the miracle but most of the times it ends up... poorly.

[minigun762]

 

 

Here is a thought,

Does IF make for a better drop pod Dev squad with 4x Multi Melta than either Salamander or UM?

 

I think tank hunter might be worth more than rerolls to hit or Relentless on turns after you pod in.

I still think UM is the best for a drop podding dev squad. Relentless after drop podding in behind cover, allowing you to move your dev squad into position for board control AND[/b[ fire that turn is priceless. For static devs Fists really are the way to go (particularly with Lascannon or Plasma Cannons), but if your podding them in you need the dev squad to be someplace where something with Interceptor (read:Riptide) can't blow your guys off the table before they even have a chance to fire.

Ehhh, I mean... UM for Drop-Devs is cute but I think that any Drop-Devs at all are still a dead-in-the-water idea. If anyone decides to drop Devs, then they either take up valuable "Turn 1" allotment of 50% DP Arrival, or else they end up waiting T2+ (in which case, they won't fire at full-BS until T3 which is simply terrible).

 

Just so inefficient--- I just don't see Drop-Devs of any faction ever being a good idea. Same as how a Hail Mary pass is not a good idea; sometimes you get the miracle but most of the times it ends up... poorly.

 

My thinking is that a MM Dev squad with a pod is the same price as a LC Dev squad and MM are a lot better at killing armor, especially if you can get side or rear armor shots.

Yes you're snap firing that first turn, but if you survive, you have a much better field position for tank killing, and the reroll seems stronger using a melta weapon.