Best Chapter Tactics?

[Captain Idaho]

The Imperial Fists Trait is great because of Tank Hunters Devastators, with the bolter aspect being a little bit of a boost on top but not game breaking.

 

I fear the day when the Internet locks onto tournament lists built with three Imperial Fist Devastator squads with 1 squad with 4 Lascannons and 2 with Missile Launchers and flak missiles, supported by a few Tactical Combat squads with Heavy Bolters. Any other points are just icing on the cake.

 

It can just sweep the board with firepower, taking out the vehicles of the opponent and then splattering the infantry with bolter fire.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

minigun762, that is a really good idea for a cheap yet effective IF/CF captain.

 

Also

I believe that bolter drill isn't as good in the real world as it looks

on paper. I don't know what kind of games you guys play, but in my

experience it is special and heavy weapons that carry most of my army's

shooting. Bolter drill re-roll's 1's to hit, and that gives you a 16.7%

increase in hits with BS4. A 16.7% increase in hits with bolters isn't

going to make or break anything. It is a nice little bonus, but nothing

to build a list around.

 

I agree that bolter drill is less effective than people think (It's actually even less than 16.7%, the re-rolled 1s still have to hit so it's only an 11% increase in hits)

 

Captain Idaho, I think that could be a strong list but I wouldn't worry about it getting to tournaments. Tournaments lists like triple helldrake won't worry about some power armoured guys with heavy weapons.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe, but they could quite possibly lose such flyers without being able to neutralise the Devastators. Aegis quad guns are powerful when Tank Hunters is getting involved.

 

It's hit or miss depending on how many kills they get.

 

But it's easy enough to not bother with the Aegis line and go for the Sky Shield and then all of a sudden the Flak Devastators will probably survive to shoot down the Helldrakes.

[DarkGuard]

The Imperial Fists Trait is great because of Tank Hunters Devastators, with the bolter aspect being a little bit of a boost on top but not game breaking.

 

I fear the day when the Internet locks onto tournament lists built with three Imperial Fist Devastator squads with 1 squad with 4 Lascannons and 2 with Missile Launchers and flak missiles, supported by a few Tactical Combat squads with Heavy Bolters. Any other points are just icing on the cake.

 

It can just sweep the board with firepower, taking out the vehicles of the opponent and then splattering the infantry with bolter fire.

 

And with that post you've just unleashed the one evil you sought to contain. :P

[Deus de Mortalis]

 

 

I agree that bolter drill is less effective than people think (It's actually even less than 16.7%, the re-rolled 1s still have to hit so it's only an 11% increase in hits)

 

Captain Idaho, I think that could be a strong list but I wouldn't worry about it getting to tournaments. Tournaments lists like triple helldrake won't worry about some power armoured guys with heavy weapons.

 

It actually is a 16.7% increase in effectiveness. Normally there is a 2/3 chance for a hit with BS4: .667

But it you re-roll 1's, that is 1/6 (chance of rolling a 1 to hit) x 2/3 (chance to hit with BS4): .111

.667 (chance to hit on the first roll) + .111 (chance that the first roll is a 1 and you roll a 3+ on the second roll) gives us a new chance to hit of .778

.111/.667 = .167 or a 16.7% increase in the chance to hit.

 

Either way though, it isn't the reason to take imperial fists.

[infornography]

Yeah, I plan to take an imperial fists detachment without a single boltgun in it aside from on one sergeant.  Mostly focused around the quad lascannon dev squad. 

The troops they would bring would just be sniper scouts and a librarian for the HQ.

 

But with the librarian manning the quad gun and the devs shooting at enemy tanks they can lay down some serious pain.

[minigun762]

I view Bolter Drill as a nice passive bonus for the majority of your units. It's not game breaking but it's a small bonus that is used multiple times each turn and that adds up.

 

I'd consider a simple HB Tac Squad to hold an objective.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

 

 

 

I agree that bolter drill is less effective than people think (It's actually even less than 16.7%, the re-rolled 1s still have to hit so it's only an 11% increase in hits)

 

Captain Idaho, I think that could be a strong list but I wouldn't worry about it getting to tournaments. Tournaments lists like triple helldrake won't worry about some power armoured guys with heavy weapons.

 

It actually is a 16.7% increase in effectiveness. Normally there is a 2/3 chance for a hit with BS4: .667

But it you re-roll 1's, that is 1/6 (chance of rolling a 1 to hit) x 2/3 (chance to hit with BS4): .111

.667 (chance to hit on the first roll) + .111 (chance that the first roll is a 1 and you roll a 3+ on the second roll) gives us a new chance to hit of .778

.111/.667 = .167 or a 16.7% increase in the chance to hit.

 

Either way though, it isn't the reason to take imperial fists.

 

It's clear we both understand the maths we're just using slightly ambiguous terminology. I was referring to the initial increase of 11% from hitting 66.7% of your shots to hitting 77.8% of your shots. But when expressed as a percentage increase in effectiveness from the original you're quite right it's 16.7%.

 

The important stat is that bolter drill will get you one extra hit every 10 bolt shots you fire.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The math says Bolter Drill gives you 11% more hits, 66% becomes 77%. That is not why Bolter Drill is so effective.

Bolter Drill (and indeed any form of re-roll in the game) is excellent because it is insurance against a massive whiff.

If you throw 20 shots and through the vagaries of fate you miss 14 shots, at least you get to throw some more dice in an attempt to repair the damage.

 

Just like how observed results eventually match the expected results (math) given enough events. Flip a coin enough times, you get 50% head 50% tails... but if you only flip it 4 times... see?

 

Dice rerolls basically expand the number of events in order to produce more 'stable' results that will match the mathematical expectation.

 

Mentally you can think of 20 dice hitting on 4+ with reroll is essentially 30 dice-- and the more dice you throw, the more the actual outcome will match the expected.

[minigun762]

Well said CAG!

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

The math says Bolter Drill gives you 11% more hits, 66% becomes 77%. That is not why Bolter Drill is so effective.

 

Bolter Drill (and indeed any form of re-roll in the game) is excellent because it is insurance against a massive whiff.

 

If you throw 20 shots and through the vagaries of fate you miss 14 shots, at least you get to throw some more dice in an attempt to repair the damage.

 

Just like how observed results eventually match the expected results (math) given enough events. Flip a coin enough times, you get 50% head 50% tails... but if you only flip it 4 times... see?

 

Dice rerolls basically expand the number of events in order to produce more 'stable' results that will match the mathematical expectation.

 

Mentally you can think of 20 dice hitting on 4+ with reroll is essentially 30 dice-- and the more dice you throw, the more the actual outcome will match the expected.

 

That's true if you rolled under the mathematical average.  However, let's say you rolled at the mathematical average.  Then re-rolls give you an enhanced chance to roll above average.  In other words any re-roll mechanic (including twin-linking) actually pushes the average higher by eliminating a certain percentage of the lower rolls.

[Office temp]

The math says Bolter Drill gives you 11% more hits, 66% becomes 77%. That is not why Bolter Drill is so effective.

Bolter Drill (and indeed any form of re-roll in the game) is excellent because it is insurance against a massive whiff.

If you throw 20 shots and through the vagaries of fate you miss 14 shots, at least you get to throw some more dice in an attempt to repair the damage.

 

Just like how observed results eventually match the expected results (math) given enough events. Flip a coin enough times, you get 50% head 50% tails... but if you only flip it 4 times... see?

 

Dice rerolls basically expand the number of events in order to produce more 'stable' results that will match the mathematical expectation.

 

Mentally you can think of 20 dice hitting on 4+ with reroll is essentially 30 dice-- and the more dice you throw, the more the actual outcome will match the expected.

The math says Bolter Drill gives you 11% more hits, 66% becomes 77%. That is not why Bolter Drill is so effective.

Bolter Drill (and indeed any form of re-roll in the game) is excellent because it is insurance against a massive whiff.

If you throw 20 shots and through the vagaries of fate you miss 14 shots, at least you get to throw some more dice in an attempt to repair the damage.

 

Just like how observed results eventually match the expected results (math) given enough events. Flip a coin enough times, you get 50% head 50% tails... but if you only flip it 4 times... see?

 

Dice rerolls basically expand the number of events in order to produce more 'stable' results that will match the mathematical expectation.

 

Mentally you can think of 20 dice hitting on 4+ with reroll is essentially 30 dice-- and the more dice you throw, the more the actual outcome will match the expected.

Reminds me of the time a full 10 man squad of ASM missed with all of their bolt pistol shots before charging a mob of cultists. Sheesh, at least the assault went better.

[LtSwifty]

There All about the same(apart from the poor black templars ) Imo overall the codex seems to be not over or under powered, compared to the other hard back codices. It looks to me, that gw is trying very hard to do away with codex creep which is a Good thing as its nice to play none marine army's and not win due to having better rules, but because you played better.

 

Don't think there's ever been a time that marines had "better" rules than the top armies. We've always been middle of the road. Early editions were dominated by eldar, 5th was guard. Maybe 4th but even that's a stretch. We're given preferential treatment in the fluff and have more models from forgeworld, but that doesn't translate to being OP on the tabletop. Anyone telling you that they lost because of their poor codex either had a bad case of sour grapes or was playing pre 5th ed Dark Eldar.

 

People said GW were moving away from codex creep when Dark Angels were released, then they came out with Eldar and Tau. I've no issues with marines being middle of the road, but it isn't GW making some consolidated effort to try and remove creep, we've always been where we are - middle of the road. Easier to play, able to perform reasonably well in all phases of the game, but unable dominate any.