Nature vs. Nurture, the What If? edition

[Kol Saresk]

Dude, everywhere can lead to some scary places. No wonder you're insane.

[Wade Garrett]

So Wade Garrett, going by what you wrote of Guilliman on Barbarus, it sounds like you're saying that what made the Death Guard and their Primarch turn to Nurgle is not themselves but their homeworld's influence?

Actually, what I was thinking of when I was typing it out is that OTL (original time line) Roboute is very much a "good son" who defines himself in relation to the role his father wants him to play. In canon, that father was the just and honorable Konor Guilliman. Swap him out for the dark warlord who raised OTL Mortarion and you get a whole new XIII Primarch.

 

I was also trying to hint that this Rob has some Nurglish elements to his character, something Mortarion seems to lack, by mentioning how even his pre corruption tactics leave no room for heroic resolve or fighting spirit...he simply brings logistical pressure to bear until the foe knuckles under.

 

I imagine this version of Rob saw a thousand idealistic rebellions rise up against him and get crushed under a tide of boots and tank treads, accounting for his dismissiveness of courage and creativity in the face of overwhelming force.

 

So he's ripe to be presented with the idea that Chaos (specifically Nurgle's entropy flavored brand) is the inevitable state of everything, and instead of fighting uselessly against it you should just stoically accept your fate.

 

Think of the character Quintus from Gladiator (Russell Crowe's second in command, becomes the leader of Commodus's Praetorians)

"People should know when they're conquered."

[GhostMalone]

Just back on the Magnus in Baal comment Magnus have his eye to save his legion he did originally have two. Sorry about the wait on my work I'm actually really digging into it.

 

Plus I just woke up

[Conn Eremon]

Hey, take your time Jaspcat.

 

Wade, perhaps I shouldn't have used the words "what you're saying is . . ." To be more accurate I meant to say your depiction of Barbaran Bobby says something to me of Barbaran Morty. How someone would walk in someone else's shoes says a lot about both.

 

As for your Nurgliman, you are right. There is a lot to Guilliman's character that it shares with a Nurgle worshiper. That rigid, regimental control over the status quo. Unlike on Macragge, Guilliman can't be a hero.

[Wade Garrett]

It's cool, Cormac. I just wanted to pontificate at length a bit more, a condition that often afflicts me on the B & C.

 

I will get around to Lorgar on Fenris directly.

[Gree]

The Primarch of the XII had the good fortune to land safely in the hands of the Battle-King Konor on Macragge. The young child, Angron, quickly prospered under the kind, but firm hand of Konor at the military academies of Macragge.

 

As he grew into manhood, it became clear to all that Angron was a warrior first and foremost, and a ruler distant second. He had mastered all weapons and surpassed the finest warriors of Ultramar before his tenth year. By contrast he had very little interest in the mundanies of ruling and organization, preferring to lead that business to other men.

 

As the young man grew, he surrounded himself with chosen warriors and young nobles, many of whom he had bested in the sparring ring.  Collectively known as the Companions, Angron forged a powerful brotherhood that would stay with him forever.

 

Angron rose to position as the sole Battle-King of Macragge after avenging his father’s death at the hands of the traitor, Gallan. He soon developed a thirst for battle, crushing the hillside barbarians of Macragge and earning the loyalty of their chieftain

 

Conquest without humiliation. Defeat with a hand of friendship extended. Those were the watchwords Angron held true, even as he extended the reach of Ultramar across the stars, the Primarch always ahead of his conquering armies. The Primarch always took care to befriend and incorporate conquered peoples into his armies.

 

It was thus that Angron encountered his true father at the vanguard of his own conquest. The Battle-King recognized his true father at once and amicably pledged loyalty, seeing the truth in the Emperor’s noble vision.

 

The newfound Primarch had one of the smoothest and most welcome transactions with his Legion, the War Hounds. The Companions as one were inducted into the Legion, with the oldest given the necessary surgeries to become half-Astartes.  The Primarch formed fast friendships among the command cadre of the War Hounds, earning the respect and loyalty of all.

 

The War Hounds took their place at the head of the Great Crusade, developing a reputation of close-quarter proficiency and massed assault. The name Angron became a watchword for heroism and loyalty among the Legions of the Emperor.

 

The Primarch himself also became known for his restless nature, always pushing on ahead at the frontiers of the Great Crusade. He had the recorded for the fastest conquests of the Crusade. When he completed the conquest of a world, scarcely did time past before Angron pushed further and further to new worlds.

 

Indeed, when the Great Atrocity occurred, Angron was far from Terra, having been at the very edges of the Halo Stars. By the time the Primarch had made it back to Terra, the Emperor was on life support on the Golden Throne.

 

Angron was distraught. He blamed himself for the Emperor’s mortally wounded state.  He threw himself
at the forefront of the Scouring, chasing down the traitors as a form of vengeance. His once noble heart became consumed by vengeance and Angron eventually disappeared into the Eye of Terror, determined to hunt he traitors to extinction, his Companion Terminators following behind him every step of the way.

 

 

 

.......so basically Angron lands on Macragge and becomes Alexander the Great, instead of a berserker.

[Conn Eremon]

I like it, but where does this all-encompassing friendship thing come from? I'm not attacking your position, I just want to see how this new trait can be seen in the Angron we know. Or if not already present, how did Macragge instill it? When it's something that far off from the canon version, I would like to see how it came to be. Wade's Barbaran Guilliman is a good example. This isn't just to come up with great alternative ideas, I just want that creativity to be the carrot that gets us to look into the real meat of these demi-god characters.

[Gree]

I like it, but where does this all-encompassing friendship thing come from? I'm not attacking your position, I just want to see how this new trait can be seen in the Angron we know. Or if not already present, how did Macragge instill it? When it's something that far off from the canon version, I would like to see how it came to be. Wade's Barbaran Guilliman is a good example. This isn't just to come up with great alternative ideas, I just want that creativity to be the carrot that gets us to look into the real meat of these demi-god characters.

 

I recall the War Hounds had something about Brotherhood and Angron had some sort of brotherhood in Nuceria. It was that and a combination of the historical Alexander the Great. I don't see it as that far off from canon honestly. Granted, I probably laid the whole thing on a bit thick.

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[Conn Eremon]

Sorry, I wasn't really meaning friendship friendship, just the idea that Angron would be all inclusive. After all, honor can also dictate eradication rather than mercy. Again, not arguing against, I like the idea, just wanting to see the logic behind it,

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[Kol Saresk]

 

Every culture holds the concept of friendship to a different standard. It's just a matter of exploring these different aspects.

Exactly. Look at the Night Lords. They have a very healthy form of friendship that helps them hone their survival instincts on a daily basis. :D

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[Kol Saresk]

Huh. Very interesting take Heathens.

[Chronotonic]

wow that was a few tied all in there...that was well done indeed

 

that is something I would like to read more of...

[spu00sed]

I'm liking everything here.

 

My own attempt would be Magnus on Nuceria.

 

The nails and his mighty psychic ability resulting in anyone with a scor of meters suffering fom an acute case of exploding head syndrome. Not sure how that would develope into a story of him conquering a planet and taking control of a legion.

[Legatus]

 

There is a lot to Guilliman's character that it shares with a Nurgle worshiper. That rigid, regimental control over the status quo.

 

Guilliman was probably one of the most progressive and innovative Primarchs, but whatev's. That may have been the result of the education on Macragge anyways. 

[lokkorex]

i'm curious, master Heathens, how come Dorn suffered the same mental damage as Curze?

 

or was that Curze, but they found him on Inwit?

[GhostMalone]

Angron as a base example will be used to show the effect of the environment surrounding him nurturing his latent potential.

 

We know that the gene seed which is based off the primarchs biology caused higher levels of testosterone and other chemicals that caused heightened aggression and bursts of violence.

 

Also that pre angron war hounds were very brotherly and skilled at arms spending most times training and doing live practices were casualties were a side note.

 

These facets are what I believe angron originally was intended to have. A militaristic mindset with comradere and anger.

 

Now I will start to go into how each home world would effect these traits and cause failings and it strengths.

 

This concludes part 1

[Ace Debonair]

Cormac Airt, on 13 Sept 2013 - 22:05, said:

Ace Debonair, on 13 Sept 2013 - 08:49, said:

Ace Debonair, on 13 Sept 2013 - 00:57, said:

...Huh.

Well, there's a thing.

I've been tossing this idea around for about two years as a really nifty way to do a compelling alternate heresy, only putting the Primarchs on planets that I made up to make sure we don't get too many Primarchs not really changing.

Dew eet. I'd read the out of that.

Maybe one day, but not now.

This thread's probably going to leave my half-formed idea in the shade, anyway.

With that in mind, though, I'd like to add something to this thread instead. I thought I might help mix things up a bit, and take a look at a possible fate for Medusa...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

EDIT: This story is UNNACEPTABLE!

Off to the dungeon for a thousand years with it. And no trial!

If anyone's interested there's a newer one on the next page.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

1000Heathens: Let me see if I can't change your mind about Fulgrim - he just needs the right world to make a man out of him.

EDIT: Ferrus basically beat the Silver Wyrm to death with his bare hands, like a boss. According to Lexicanum (I know, I know, just hear me out) Fulgrim studied the machinery he was brought up around until he understood it, hence him doing that (broadly) here. I also figure he'd develop some insight into how to kill the damn thing while he's at it, and also a silver spear is a quick nod at his artistic side and a good way to avoid being called Ferrus Manus.

[High MarshalGR]

Okay so first things first as a rough outline here are what I believe the primarchs were installed with and what the worlds gave them as it currently stands;

 

 

Lion el'Jonson - tactician (to do whatever it takes)

Fulgrim the Phoenician - the goal for perfection

Perturabo - diplomacy and philosophy

Jaghatai Khan - the unknown element (wildness)

Leman Russ - fatherly and instinctual

Rogal Dorn - honour

Konrad Curze - order

Sanguinius - soul

Ferrus Manus - the will

Angron - the brotherhood and anger/wrath

Roboute Guilliman - the brain

Mortarion - endurance

Magnus the Red - pshycic potential

Horus Lupercal - the vision

Lorgar Aurelian - the faith

Vulkan - the humble and humane

Corvus Corax - the concise

Alpharius Omegon - the secrecy

 

Fleet of unknown origins- ehh?

Chogoris - open plains adding freedom and the will to dream

Prospero - the acceptance of warpcraft and pursuit of knowledge

Macragge - Romanian empire bringing in beauracracy and honour

Baal - a declining population that bring steadfastness and hope for a better future

Barbarus - tyrannical domain of necrons cents and suffering

Nocturne - a testing place of endurance will and a hardy people that try protect each other

Olympia - a society of philosophers poets and warriors

Inwit - a cold hard dominating place that needs a will of stone to handle

Caliban - feudal knightly yet dark

Colchis - religious dominance zealotry and martyrdom

Chemos - a struggling people that hold dear what pleasure can be taken from life

Nostramo - lawless unjust society of darkness

Deliverance - slavery and dominance of its people's

Fenris - extreme planet of extremely strong and disillusioned people

Medusa - warring clans of rogues and wonderers

Cthonia - gangsta underground societies and dealings

Nuceria - slavery and cruel tormentors.

 

Does everyone agree, I just want people to be able to see where the next part of my arguementbis comes from

 

 

Nice idea, so I'll edit along with my views for each one. Three characteristics included. Hope everyone follows and edit according to his views so we can set a base to work on:

 

Lion El 'Johson: Survival, Profit, Cynical

Fulgrim: Narcissism, An urge for Perfection, Foolish

Perturabo: Dominance, Tyranny (see his Legion's structure), Underestimated

Jaghatai Khan: Unstable adaptability, Artist, Freedom

Leman Russ: Balanced, Leadership qualities, Honor

Rogal Dorn: Willpower, Faith, Truth

Curze: Order, Chaos, Bipolar disorder

Sanguinius: Angel, Righteous, The Emperor's soul

Ferrus Manus: Harsh, Evolving, Mechanical

Angron: Anger, Ruthlessness, Aggression

Roboute Guilliman: Justice, Order, Farsight

Mortarion: Grudge, Rot, On-off Resilience

Magnus: Psychic, Knowledge, Occult

Horus: Charisma, Egoism, Achievement

Lorgar: Obedience, Ignorance, Blind faith without purpose

Vulkan: Humble, Concience, Dreamer

Corax: Coolheaded, Methodical, Self-reflection

Alpharius- Omegon: Secrecy, Boast, Self-esteem

 

Chogoris: Freedom

Prospero: Knowledge without limit

Macragge: Equilibrium

Baal: Hope

Barbarus: Tyranny

Nocturne: Teamwork

Olympia: Calculation

Inwit: Will

Caliban: Every man for himself (under the portrait of teamwork, knighthood)

Colchis: Ignorance

Chemos: Hard work

Nostramo: Darkness

Deliverance: Slavery

Fenris: Strength in body, mind and spirit

Medusa: Unforgiving

Cthonia: Greed

Nyceria: Corruption

 

Keep in mind those are some traits I find major for each Primarch and each world and are by no means the only or absolute. Now, as far as nature and nurture go, I can't say the exact percentage of either of the two. 

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED

[lokkorex]

that... that is truly horrible! (what happened to Dorn, not what you wrote)

 

poor Rogal, but we all have our breaking point, but if i understand you correctly, he broke at the worst possible moment, on the worst possible place for him.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

When the Primarchs were scattered, Anubis came to rest upon the scholar planet of Prospero, being taken in and raised by the psychics who had found the infant in the crater in Tizca's central plaza. It was this community of scholars and mistics who named him after a God of ancient Aegyptus, the guardian of the dead, not just his coloring which matched the God's, but for a vision that Amon, wisest of Prospero's people, that showed him this infant guarding a multitude against, an unspeakable horror, a crawling chaos. 

Whilst skilled in all of the psychic arts that the people of Prospero practiced, it was the art of using his powers to heal or to create devices aided his fellows in harnessing their power, that the young Primarch excelled. Of all his devices, his arguably greatest one was aegis generators, which both shielded psykers from the psychneuein and held back the ravenous predators. It was these, and other similar wonders that brought machine and sorcery together, that allowed Anubis to cleanse Prospero of the menace, and for the restoration of her cities.

Over time, Prospero became known of a world of learning and healing, with many flocking to the planet, tales of a dark giant who despite standing both physically and mentally head and shoulders above all on his planet, was humble and quiet. It was these tales that brought the Emperor to Prospero.
The main idea I had was that Vulkan's compassion for humanity seems to have been his main feature that was not shaped by Nocturne, and that all the Primarchs have psychic abilities to some extent, and that chances are he would still be good at making stuff :P I figured he would have a different name then when he ended up on Nocturne, and went with Anubis mainly because he just comes across in Egyptian mythology as a nice guy, like Vulkan does in the HH series. 
I must admit, the idea of Hellenistic Iron warriors is brilliant.

[Hyaenidae]

DELETED