Are we too different to play single codex?

[AekoldHelbrass]

Hails, fellow Chaos fans.

For quite some time I've watching us "getting along" in our own subforum, and one thing becomes clear to me: we are too different.

There are some of us who likes current book, takes VotLW upgrade willingly, and fields Chosen.

Some of us, me included, who remembers good times of CSM 3.5, and would like to see Legions back.

Some of us are higher tier players and they realize there is still single powerful build in codex.

There are people who tries to write their home rules or unofficial updates to CSM.

 

And of course some of us just want to have fun playing toy soldiers, and switching to Daemons Primary is the simplest solution.

But all of us see CSM differently. Look, even Night Lords can't agree, some of us like Raptors Legion idea and some of us cries havoc that is was never the case.

Because of that, we cannot have single solution to our common problem, and we are just continuing to fight in our own subforum.

I see following groups between us:

1. Like current codex, need only minor tweak to make it work.
2. Want Legions back and want favourite Legion represented properly.
3. Want larger quantity of powerful lists from single codex.

Can you say to which group you belong, or which one is closest to you?

[Scribe]

2 - Fully.

 

1 - The codex is simply not good, requires far more that a minor tweak.

3 - Would seem to come out of 2, done properly.

 

Item 2 is the source of pain and anguish in my soul.

[Noctus Cornix]

Closest I can all myself to is Group 1.

 

I have played Chaos since I first started 40k back in late 3rd edition, and this still remains to me as the best adaptation of the Chaos Codex so far. Still could use plenty of work, but this also has a great part to do with the game as a whole and the current standing of the rules and units, not simply the codex itself.

[Scribe]

Closest I can all myself to is Group 1.

 

I have played Chaos since I first started 40k back in late 3rd edition, and this still remains to me as the best adaptation of the Chaos Codex so far. Still could use plenty of work, but this also has a great part to do with the game as a whole and the current standing of the rules and units, not simply the codex itself.

 

EDIT THE PART 2: Actually disregard. I have to accept people see things differently and I dont need to really understand it. :]

[Dravenguild]

2 camp for myself, the codex is just not a good base to work off of, too many inherent imbalances and non-cohesive design philisophies (Are they Legionnaires? Renegades? Neither?) make this a pull in every which way to which the whole is weaker for it.

 

I'll be honest, my issue is fluff and power. One, we shouldn't have to prop ourselves up on the heldrake just to remain effective, alongside that I would like proper methods of deployment fitting the established fluff of Astartes warfare, drop pods!

 

Seriously, with the inclusion of a drop pod entry so many nuances could be fixed, certainly the codex as a whole wouldn't be better but hey at least we have new ways to deploy our inferior units to the battlefield.

 

And I want fluffy things for the legions not just the cults, as restrictive or imbalanced 3.5 was it was fun, much like grey knights of current times. Overpowered as all hell but allowed for thematic lists that won't get swept away by a subpar list from a new codex.

[totgeboren]

Group 2 for me. Even to the point that I would gladly have CSM remain at this weak powerlevel, with bad internal balance, if we instead got legion rules.

 

1 and 3 goes hand in hand, and if we don't get legion rules, we should at least get an interesting and varied codex that allows you to play many different playstyles (instead of like now, when you can really only just deploy and then move forwards. We play more like a caricature of orks/nids than anything else).

 

AS Dravenguild says, Drop pods would in a heartbeat balance a huge number of units fro basic CSM to Helbrutes.

 

Also, the removal of the ability of icons to act as beacons for deep-strike/summoning was a big mistake, as that was the one thing CSM armies could do well. They were not fast, nor sneaky, but at least they could call in everything from nurglings to obilterators to the exact location where they were needed. Now we can do nothing, except walk up the field.

 

We play like a list from the old black&white list included in the 2ed starter box. Just a bunch of random units with no special movement/deployment options at all.

 

Give us fluff (legion lists) or failing that, at least give us a codex that has ok internal balance and some movement/deployment options other than just running forwards.

[Sanctimonius]

Closest I can all myself to is Group 1.

 

I have played Chaos since I first started 40k back in late 3rd edition, and this still remains to me as the best adaptation of the Chaos Codex so far. Still could use plenty of work, but this also has a great part to do with the game as a whole and the current standing of the rules and units, not simply the codex itself.

 

You....you interest me. Can I ask, do you mainly focus on the rules when you decide what makes a codex? The options, the fluff? What about this codex makes it the best? This is genuine curiosity, by the by. There needs to be a *genuine question* mark on the keyboard.

[daveNYC]

We can all play in the same codex.  Ignoring balance issues, all you would need to do is bring back 3.5 and then stick the Heldrake in and add forge and mauler fiend type options to the existing defiler (start with a CC only walker, have the hades, ecto, and battlecannons as ranged weapon upgrades, lashers as melee upgrades; if no ranged weapon upgrades are taken, give the option for extra legs or something that gives the speed and move through cover and whatnot of the maulerfiend).

[TheDevourer]

Mostly

2. Even though I only jumped in on this codex, not being in the hobby in the 3.5 era. But I loved the chaos fluff, which is what made me start csm. However, I feel badly represented with this codex. I just don´t feel like a chaos marine. I feel like a slightly worse normal marine with dodgy mechanicum tools and I happen to have forgotten most of my useful tools while I escaped to the eye of terror during the heresy.

 

However, being a tourny player I also feel strongly for

3. I don´t want to have to change armies to be able to compete. I hate tau and their fluff, aswell as play style. Eldar are ok, but that´s about it. So that left me daemons, and well they work. I don´t feel the urge to spend alot of money on armies I don´t like just to be constantly viable. I just have really big issues with the way rules are written by GW at the moment.

I´ve even worked on multiple fandexes in my group which I feel turned out rather well, and yes I´m starting on a chaos dex simply because I want to be able to represent legions.

[hornywingythingy]

Mostly two, with a lot of three, been looking through my older csm dexes, and it just got depressing, 3.5 and the sheer options, the book before that with some terrible models and 30pt sorcerers. Its the restriction of the vision that gets me, most of all.....

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

As a Thousand son player, you can guess my views on the codex, yet I will keep with it (though when my Salamanders are big enough to fight more then 600pts we shall see.)

[Tenebris]

So the options are:

 

1. Like current codex, need only minor tweak to make it work.
2. Want Legions back and want favourite Legion represented properly.
3. Want larger quantity of powerful lists from single codex.

I would say that I am completely in favor for the option number 2, which would eventually lead to options 1 and 3 since it would provide the much needed options for a competitive and powerful army list or lists and it would include the needed minor tweaks to make the army work. 

 

All in all we lack a theme, or themes since without legion rules, modifications of the FOC and all the according things we are and will remain a very bland and uneventful codex. 

[AekoldHelbrass]

Looks like most votes for option 2, but still we can see immense amount of homegrown rules topics. What makes me wonder, you will have better luck using FW Horus Heresy than writing homerules (trust me, I've been trying to write homerules for my Night Lords for about 4 years already), why would people still go that path?

 

 

Being fully option 2 myself, I'm putting my Night Lords to shelf, salvaging all possible parts, and switching to 30k SoH, probably keeping my Daemons+Noise Marines army just in case. And of course I would recommend the same to all other type 2 Chaos fans.

[Kol Saresk]

I would say number two just for the variety, but the 3.5 rules were so..... narrow in my opinion. Not to mention now in the Night Lords, one of the biggest Night Lords factors is now redundant. So none of the above.

[the jeske]

if you wanted to play a NL painted army in 3.5 times you could . take NL legion army . Play any other legion army [stealth+infiltration here you go use AL rules. Want a demon bomb ? pick any of the cult legions or WB or BL. Want a mix of everything take BL] or a non legion army . That was 10+different builds to make NL , they could be with marks or without marks , with vet skills or without them etc.

How many ways to play NL do people had in the gav dex time or kelly dex ? ah and as a "way to play" I counted I just counted the armies that were either good or very fluffy for the 3.5 armies.

[Kol Saresk]

if you wanted to play a NL painted army in 3.5 times you could . take NL legion army . Play any other legion army [stealth+infiltration here you go use AL rules. Want a demon bomb ? pick any of the cult legions or WB or BL. Want a mix of everything take BL] or a non legion army . That was 10+different builds to make NL , they could be with marks or without marks , with vet skills or without them etc.

That's exactly my point. If I wanted to play by only Night Lord rules, I had to confine myself to a view specific, narrow view of the Legion. If I wanted a broader view, then I had to play a different Legion. That's why I look at Forgeworld's rules in sheer wonder and adoration. Because there, the rules aren't confining or restricting. They don't focus you on a specific form of gameplay. That's what the Rites of War are for. But 3.5 was a narrow view while 4th and 6th are no view at all. So, like I said, none of the above. Neither options 1, 2, or 3.

[Scribe]

Option 2 is not 'I want 3.5 back' its 'I want Legion rules' its exactly what FW is doing. :p

[Kol Saresk]

Option 2 is not 'I want 3.5 back' its 'I want Legion rules' its exactly what FW is doing.

I know. That's why I said:

I would say number two just for the variety, but the 3.5 rules were so..... narrow in my opinion. Not to mention now in the Night Lords, one of the biggest Night Lords factors is now redundant. So none of the above.

I'm not against Legion rules. Just 3.5 Legion rules. Well, not even really against, just that my view is that they are narrow, specific and restricting. As Jeske pointed out, depending on the playstyle you wanted, you may not even be allowed to use your Legion rules. You'd have to use a different Legion's rules. Which, if I have understood it correctly, makes the whole point of Legion rules useless and redundant.

[Jiron]

I am a camp 1!

I quite agree with Noctus Cornix. I have never played according to "worshipped" 3.5 (I have been Dark Angel that time) but I have read it and didn't like it at all.

Why I like the codex? I like the new fluff (Abbysal Crusade esspecially), because we already know everything about the legions. I like the mark system. I also like the Champions of Chaos rule cause it gives more character to my aspiring champions.

 

From my point of view, most of the legions does not work anymore. The codex gives you the option of play a pure world eater warband or pure thousand sons warband. And if you really need to play the "honourable Legion!", you can always switch to HH. Let's face it, after ten thousand years in eye of terror, every legionaire is just a Chaos Space Marine. 

[minionboy]

Honestly, I'm fine with the book as is.  The 3.5 worship is goofy, while there were options for the legion lists, aside from Iron Warriors, none of them were viable competitively...

 

I'm still of the opinion that people who fluff themselves into corners are always going to be disappointed, it has been this way for the last 16 years at least, and will probably continue that way for many more years.  GW has always favored the collector, the person who built a larget collection that could play their army in a variety of ways, anyone who has ever built a one-dimensional army has always had problems when their book is updated, and guess what?  GW will always update the books.

 

If you want to play Night Lords, then do it, I'd still suggest using the CSM book, as it really is thematically more appropriate than space marines.  Raptors cause fear, and what is more terrifying than maulerfiends running down city streets with giant fire breathing daemon dragons flying over head?

 

ATSNKF is also fairly un-fluffy for Chaos Marines.  Chaos Space Marines are not selfless soldiers willing to lay down their life for their comrades, they're totally willing to leave when the fight isn't going their way, and they definitely would rather see the guy next to them get pushed face down in the mud than risk their own shot at immortality.  Maybe they should have a rule called "Better you than me."

[Scribe]

And thats totally a valid opinion minionboy, but its still just an opinion.

 

Did you see a lot of First Claw working to sacrifice their brothers in the Night Lord series?

 

You bring up the legion lists as non-competitive, as if thats even the point here. I wouldnt even play Chaos (as Primary) if I was doing nothing but competitive. I would have kept the Necrons I sold because they where boring to play, and had no soul (ha!) as a faction.

 

ATSKNF is unfluffy, sure if you define it by...fluff. Just change the words and the rule is fine. CSM live in hell. Literally, the dimension behind the veil, and they have LD 8? Fascinating. 

 

Forge World continues to show us the way. Its not overly difficult, the 'balance' discussion is a non-starter in the world of Necrons, Eldar, and Tau, and frankly 'fear' as a concept is far more than Daemon Engines or the next 'big shiny'.

 

I mean seriously, in the face of the Space marine book Chapter rules this conversation borders on pointless.

 

GW recognizes the appeal, they have the ability to implement a vision on it, and its hardly restrictive at all (indeed if I recall correctly the ruins may reinforce a style, but there is no reason you couldnt run Raven Guard as a tank heavy list).

 

If you find the CSM book acceptable, thats fantastic. However to say that "oh we can only go back to 3.5 if we want legion rules" is simply lazy, kind of like GW's efforts toward CSM.

 

FW has shown us a method.

GW has shown us a method.

 

Neither where even attempted for CSM.

[Kol Saresk]

And thats totally a valid opinion minionboy, but its still just an opinion.

Did you see a lot of First Claw working to sacrifice their brothers in the Night Lord series?

Well,t here was that spat with Third Claw... and let's not forget about Cyrion and Uzas...

But you do make a point.

[minionboy]

And thats totally a valid opinion minionboy, but its still just an opinion.

 

Did you see a lot of First Claw working to sacrifice their brothers in the Night Lord series?

 

You bring up the legion lists as non-competitive, as if thats even the point here. I wouldnt even play Chaos (as Primary) if I was doing nothing but competitive. I would have kept the Necrons I sold because they where boring to play, and had no soul (ha!) as a faction.

 

ATSKNF is unfluffy, sure if you define it by...fluff. Just change the words and the rule is fine. CSM live in hell. Literally, the dimension behind the veil, and they have LD 8? Fascinating. 

 

Forge World continues to show us the way. Its not overly difficult, the 'balance' discussion is a non-starter in the world of Necrons, Eldar, and Tau, and frankly 'fear' as a concept is far more than Daemon Engines or the next 'big shiny'.

 

I mean seriously, in the face of the Space marine book Chapter rules this conversation borders on pointless.

 

GW recognizes the appeal, they have the ability to implement a vision on it, and its hardly restrictive at all (indeed if I recall correctly the ruins may reinforce a style, but there is no reason you couldnt run Raven Guard as a tank heavy list).

 

If you find the CSM book acceptable, thats fantastic. However to say that "oh we can only go back to 3.5 if we want legion rules" is simply lazy, kind of like GW's efforts toward CSM.

 

FW has shown us a method.

GW has shown us a method.

 

Neither where even attempted for CSM.

 

Well, if you go by mechanics alone, I still think ATSKNF doesn't represent chaos well.  The immune to fear part?  Sure.  The part where they heroically never run away, not so much.

 

Not all "Chaos Marines" live in the warp, LD8 represents more recent converts to chaos and renegades.  VOTLW, which makes them LD9 represent the embittered, more stubborn, veterans of countless battles and millennia of existing inside the warp.  Maybe they should have wrapped fear immunity into that?

 

Regarding the SM chapter rule, I'd be very surprised if they had this idea while writing CSM and decided, "Nah, screw Chaos."  What probably happened is that they released the CSM book, people complained to holy hell (which Chaos seems to be exceptionally good at), and decided that when the opportunity arose again, they would come up with a solution.  I see the Chapter Traits more as GW actually listening to the community, rather than them actively deciding to pull one over on chaos.

 

While I agree that it does suck to wait for supplements, I actually think supplements are quite awesome.  There is nothing like having a whole book dedicated to the subfaction that you choose to dedicate your collection to.  If you're not playing for competitive purposes, then there is no reason to complain about how powerful the book is, so go on playing your Night Lords using the Chaos Marine book.

[the jeske]

Regarding the SM chapter rule, I'd be very surprised if they had this

idea while writing CSM and decided, "Nah, screw Chaos."  What probably

happened is that they released the CSM book, people complained to holy

hell (which Chaos seems to be exceptionally good at), and decided that

when the opportunity arose again, they would come up with a solution.  I

see the Chapter Traits more as GW actually listening to the community,

rather than them actively deciding to pull one over on chaos.

Wait wait wait wait wait. So we go on and on and on , how bad the gav dex is how it is no legion for whole 5th ed [and a bit of 4th] . To a point where the designers themself tell that the gav dex doesn't work well for chaos legions and that this may be fixed in the future[we never got to know , if they ment FW stuff or the ed chaos dex by that in the end] and then they give us an identical codex .And then our whining for a month makes the DT[considering the 4-6 month time window of codex production in GW] go "let us give sm chapter traits "?

 

 

 

 

 

 

But 3.5 was a narrow view while 4th and 6th are no view at all.

Ok this has to be language barrier thing , because in my mind , a codex that gives you 10+ ways to play your faction maybe many things , but narrow is not one of them . The 3.5 dex didn't force NL players to play NL raptor spam list[well actualy it was biker spams more offten then raptors] , it gave them an option to play it that way .  Raptors weren't even the only thing the NL legion list  had , buff to normal troops and cheaper Ld debuffs in form of demon visage were more

important .A NL are the raptor legion , they invented mass raptor/jump unit tactics .

 

 

 

 

 

 Raptors cause fear, and what is more terrifying than maulerfiends

running down city streets with giant fire breathing daemon dragons

flying over head?

 

this is a fluff question right ? Because game wise the combination of those 3 is less scary , the bikes and helldrakes or 2-3 helldrakes .

 

 

Ah and as FW goes . It is hardly  a fix for chaos as a faction. FW is still not 100% accepted both in casual and in tournament games .

[AekoldHelbrass]

While I agree that it does suck to wait for supplements, I actually think supplements are quite awesome.  There is nothing like having a whole book dedicated to the subfaction that you choose to dedicate your collection to.

Unfortunately, as we can see by BL supplement (and Jeske summarized it perfectly in some neighbouring topic) - supplements suck. Even mandatory VotLW upgrade, seriously? Sons of Horus were almost wiped out before Abaddon painted them black and recruited another 150 000 of them, where the Hell they got veterans?

If you're not playing for competitive purposes, then there is no reason to complain about how powerful the book is, so go on playing your Night Lords using the Chaos Marine book.

The thing is, I don't see it even remotely possible. Night Lords and Alpha Legion are least represented by current codex. Lord cannot have fear, no matter how many points you'll spend on your Lord - he'll probably die in challenge against any SM captain, and of course you do not want to win a challenge because of stupid Boons table that can get your clean atheistic Lord transformed into DP, Warp Talons are daemons and without grenades, no Night Vision, no Fearless troops unless you're taking some kind of totem like a barbarian, and you're suddenly getting scared when enemy sergeant rolls 6 on his Plasma pistol? Don't get me even started on Alpha Legion, those guys have way more reasons to complain way more than I do. So yes, I see current codex as Codex Black Legion, that can be allied with Supplement Black Legion (also known as Supplement 4 Heldrakes). On the other hand, Raven Guard with White Scars allied can represent Night Lords better than Gavdex and Phildex ever will. History shows that GW lost their path on CSM, so I really wish there will be no Supplement for Night Lords, just not to make things worse.

 

Lucky me, FW arrived just in time with HH. But why are there still so many people writing home rules? What drives them?