Are we too different to play single codex?

[minionboy]

Wait wait wait wait wait. So we go on and on and on , how bad the gav dex is how it is no legion for whole 5th ed [and a bit of 4th] . To a point where the designers themself tell that the gav dex doesn't work well for chaos legions and that this may be fixed in the future[we never got to know , if they ment FW stuff or the ed chaos dex by that in the end] and then they give us an identical codex .And then our whining for a month makes the DT[considering the 4-6 month time window of codex production in GW] go "let us give sm chapter traits "?

 

Wait wait wait... what? I just want to be clear, you honestly believe that it was more likely GW deciding to actively screw over chaos players?  LOL

 

 

this is a fluff question right ? Because game wise the combination of those 3 is less scary , the bikes and helldrakes or 2-3 helldrakes .

 

 

Look at my response in context.  The person was someone who didn't want to play competitively, so how a unit performs competitively isn't the point.  Also, sure, a bunch of crazy guy son motorcycles riding you down as you flee through the streets with giant mechanical deamon dragons farting fire all over the place is still terrifying!

 

 

Unfortunately, as we can see by BL supplement (and Jeske summarized it perfectly in some neighbouring topic) - supplements suck. Even mandatory VotLW upgrade, seriously? Sons of Horus were almost wiped out before Abaddon painted them black and recruited another 150 000 of them, where the Hell they got veterans?

 

 

Here has been the chaos war cry this entire edition, "We want supplements!  Supplements suck!"  Everyone wants special rules, but complains that they got them, or that they should have had them first.

 

The thing is, I don't see it even remotely possible. Night Lords and Alpha Legion are least represented by current codex. Lord cannot have fear, no matter how many points you'll spend on your Lord - he'll probably die in challenge against any SM captain, and of course you do not want to win a challenge because of stupid Boons table that can get your clean atheistic Lord transformed into DP, Warp Talons are daemons and without grenades, no Night Vision, no Fearless troops unless you're taking some kind of totem like a barbarian, and you're suddenly getting scared when enemy sergeant rolls 6 on his Plasma pistol? Don't get me even started on Alpha Legion, those guys have way more reasons to complain way more than I do. So yes, I see current codex as Codex Black Legion, that can be allied with Supplement Black Legion (also known as Supplement 4 Heldrakes). On the other hand, Raven Guard with White Scars allied can represent Night Lords better than Gavdex and Phildex ever will. History shows that GW lost their path on CSM, so I really wish there will be no Supplement for Night Lords, just not to make things worse.

 

Lucky me, FW arrived just in time with HH. But why are there still so many people writing home rules? What drives them?

 

 

Your own vision of what makes an Alpha Legion army or a Night Lords army might actually not be what the game designers agree with, isn't that a funny thought?  Bear with me a second here, I'm not totally crazy.  Forgeworld, yes, the beloved Forgeworld that somehow makes everything right, has made THE ONLY Alpha Legion special character ever to exist since 2nd edition.  GW has never done it, FW did, though they didn't make a model for him.  Now guess what?  HE DOES NOT INFILTRATE!  You read that correctly, no infiltrating, no outflanking, no scouting!  His warlord trait, which could have just as easily been Master of Deception, is instead a re-roll for picking table sides and Seizing the Initiative.  This mans name is Arkos the Faithless, Scion of Alpharius.

 

End Rant.

[minionboy]

Sorry for that bit of a rant, but honestly, hearing people complain and offer no solutions is just aggravating, which is why I haven't posted much in the Chaos forums lately.

 

I prefer to find solutions instead of focus on the problems.  When all you do is complain and focus on what you don't like, you are spending a lot of energy on something which will not produce results.  I firmly believe that if Chaos players would spend that energy on actually playing the game and figuring out how to make the codex work for them, it would be a much better community.  Instead, we sound like a bunch of children.

[Scribe]

Argh, I wish I could just walk away....

 

My solution? Sell my 40K, buy FW, play HH, read Black Library. I dont want my purchases showing up on some bean counters spreadsheet under 'Chaos Space Marines' anymore.

 

The rest of this rant has been deleted, as we already have a QQ thread.

[Zhorzh]

 

I prefer to find solutions instead of focus on the problems.  When all you do is complain and focus on what you don't like, you are spending a lot of energy on something which will not produce results.  I firmly believe that if Chaos players would spend that energy on actually playing the game and figuring out how to make the codex work for them, it would be a much better community.

 

The only thing that we can do now is to pray that GW will salvage this situation by releasing quality legion supplements. Otherwise there's nothing that players can do about this codex. If they could then they would've found some kind of solution by now.

[Trevak Dal]

The neat thing about the CSM list compared to the Legions list is that they are kind of similarly built.  20 man sized squads of "Tactical" marines (CSM), 10 man special weapons shooting squads (Super Chosen), Rampagers (khorne beserekers with better ccws worth the buy in) and 10 man Devestator squads with auto cannons.

 

Fluff Perspective:  You can see why Guilliman made the codex astartes as he did-they were putting all their specials and heavies into one basket-and 20 man squads are a bit unwieldly (but Combat Squads where you could break them into 4 5 man teams would be glorious...Combat squads should be a USR available to all armies not horde built)

 

You can also see how the Chaos space marines tried to keep the way that the legions did...but as guys died and stuff broke, and they ran into similar situations that Guiliman saw they adapted (though not with his rigorous 1 special 1 heavy per 10 man squad deal...though I wish we could get 2 per 10 and include power weapons in there but I digress)

 

Crunch Perspective:  If you have a Chaos Space Marine army that isn't a cult army (beserkers, Dubstep marines, etc) without a whole lot a modeled mutations and such, you're pretty much 1/4 the way of having a Legion army (I've been building my CSMS with the HH in mind as well as Codex Space Marines)

[Noctus Cornix]

You....you interest me. Can I ask, do you mainly focus on the rules when you decide what makes a codex? The options, the fluff? What about this codex makes it the best? This is genuine curiosity, by the by. There needs to be a *genuine question* mark on the keyboard.

Verywell then. If that is what you desire.

 

Allow me to begin by saying that I am not blind to the inadequacies of our current codex. From a rules stand point, our codex has its issues (though I am far less harsh than some of my associates on this board) but the blame is not set solely on the codex. The game itself has taken a change towards a design that is based more around fluff than of ensuring balance which revolves around the constant need for updating and adding to each army so as to ensure that each faction has something new to attract more players. I am not here to condemn or venerate such a conceptual decision because none of that matters. At the same time, it must also be said that this change has unveiled a disturbing trend within our more competitive players to ensure that the maximum potential is obtained no matter the cost so they may win. And so we see the min maxing of cults and helldrakes, wave serpent spams and players flying to each new army to ensure that they remain ontop. Because of this, the obvious minor and insignificant differences between certain units are seen as staggering flaws and units that are actually decent are seen as worthless because of the most miniscule things. Make no mistake that our codex could use changes, a fine tuning, additions and alterations but what book doesn’t? Nothing is perfect and you can always make it a little bit better and a little bit cleaner. Looking at this from purely an objective point of view, knowing that the codex is confined to a select number of pages, has a clear and direct objective, while attempting to appeal and make available for every player, our current Codex is the best portrayal of Chaos Space Marines to date. I say this not because it is the best thing since sliced bread but because the previous renditions were worse.

 

Forgive me for making an assumption but I can only guess that the most prominent thing on your mind is the addition of Legion rules, yes? I know that there are quite a few Chaos players who wish for its safe return. To be fair though, and in my honest opinion, the 3.5 Codex, for all its cool tid bits of fluff and flavor, is perhaps the worst plague on the Chaos Community as a whole. Am I saying that the rules are bad? No. Am I saying that the codex was bad? No. But it has shown a skewed and misguided portrayal of what Chaos is. Chaos is, and always has been, a melting pot. The Eye of terror is a homogenous conflagration, where traitors, killers, heretics, and warriors unit under the banner of warlords and champions with the thoughts of revenge, domination, and apotheosis ever-present in their minds. The Legions are dead. Fluff dictates that nearly every Legion save for the Black Legion and Word Bearers (and even these have their splinters, renegades, and sub-factions) have shattered into warbands and splinters, each warrior seeking his own battle and his own future. Is there Legion specifics warbands? Certainly but these are far few and inbetween things. The ‘pure’ Traitor Marine is a nearly extinct breed of renegade. Isolation, in-fighting, and desperation will have those who wish to survive for themselves to call upon the power of thirsty-Gods and, whether they like the Gods or not, use it. There is no excuse. No exception. And no differentiation.

 

Now the matter turns to the 3.5 edition codex. Why do I not agree with it? Why do I think Legion rules are a bad decision and I am happy they stay out of Chaos as a whole? Because it sets a false idea of what Chaos is. Night Lords specialized in fear. Iron Warriors specialized in Siege Warfare. World Eaters specialized in up close and personal combat mixed with barbarism. All of these things are true but they do not translate well when you try and apply them into a rule set. What the 3.5 codex did was it restricted players who found themselves attracted to certain Legions. It set them with guidelines, rules organization but most importantly it rewarded them for it with personal traits and advantages. Why? Why should Night Lords not be allowed to follow the Blood God? Why can you not take Noise Marines or Plague Marines into battle alongside your Iron Warriors? Why are you denied the opportunity and favor of the Gods? Because you are part of a Legion that no longer exists or cares about you? Once again, fluff dictates that the Legions are dead and warbands do not have the resources or the power in their hands to resupply and grow the same way Chapters do. Gene-seed vaults may run dry. Munitions will bleed empty. Your navigators will become mutated gibbering abominations and you are left in a desperate situation where you must adapt to survive or you die out. And so you recruit traitors. You make alliances and trades. You turn to the worship of Gods for strength and you rely upon those who you hold no love for in hopes that you may survive another day. That is, in essence, what Chaos is meant to be and that is what the current codex strives so hard to explain and allow. Legion rules restricts. It organizes. It follows codes, procedures, and doctrines. There’s no such thing any longer and they are too far and few to make any meaningful impact upon the lore to take a standing within the rules.

 

When it comes to Legion rules, how does one make them effective and reasonable? Do you place it upon the entire army? Or do you make it available as a price for each squad? Chapter rules are meant to portray an elite fighting force that has spent generations honing and practicing its doctrines, teaching these same doctrines to their neophytes and one day they will teach it to their own. Chaos has none of this. And if you did, who’s to say who gets what? Do you label it down upon the entire Warband? Does that mean a World Eater Warband cannot take Plague Marines? Why can Warlord Zhuphor not make an alliance with the Lords of Decay to purge an Imperial World when it is convenient and profitable for both of them? And what if you make the rules squad by squad based? Which squads can take them? Is it only available to standard Chaos Space Marines? Why so? Can a Khorne Berzerker not be from the Iron Warriors? What legitimate claim does an unmarked marine over one that is? The entire question becomes convoluted and a giant jumbled mess to which there is no answer that can work well without offering a blanket statement about each former Member of a now dead Legion.

 

So. Why do I like the new codex? Because it feels like what it was meant to be. Chaos. Its not codex traitor Legions. Its not codex spikey marines. Its Codex Chaos Space Marines. Armies of bitter, vengeful warriors who march beneath the eyes of thirsting Gods, each Champion, each warrior seeking his own place of power, his own personal glory. Whether they love the Gods or not, the strength cannot be denied and they march forward into battle in hopes to lavish themselves in glory and rewards. They’re not sergeants. They’re champions and they are called such for a reason. The most recent codex, both in rules and fluff offers the widest array of options and variety to tune a Chaos Warband to your own design and your own liking with selected warriors and traitors from wherever you like. It disowns the entire use of Legion rules but it offers flavor, warp smiths, raptors with fear, dark apostles. These are all options you can take and use at your leisure that provide the fluff and flavor you want without restricting anyone to an organized ideal. If you want to go without any marks of Chaos. That’s perfectly fine, but the option is there and its your choice to take it.

 

 

And thats totally a valid opinion minionboy, but its still just an opinion.

 

Did you see a lot of First Claw working to sacrifice their brothers in the Night Lord series?

 

You bring up the legion lists as non-competitive, as if thats even the point here. I wouldnt even play Chaos (as Primary) if I was doing nothing but competitive. I would have kept the Necrons I sold because they where boring to play, and had no soul (ha!) as a faction.

 

ATSKNF is unfluffy, sure if you define it by...fluff. Just change the words and the rule is fine. CSM live in hell. Literally, the dimension behind the veil, and they have LD 8? Fascinating.

 

Yes. I did see First Claw quite often trying to kill one another or content to see one of their fellow members of the Warband die. As I do recall, in Void Stalker we see two Night Lords happily leave one of their wounded squad mates to die in the tombs of Tsugalsa. The point you are trying to make is characters of a novel, specially selected and hand crafted personality to forge a narrative that does not reflect the remainder of the Legion as a whole.

 

LD 8 is a perfect standing for which each Chaos Space Marine to be. So what if they do live in the Eye of Terror. Failing a leadership check does not mean you are running scared. Space Marines do not feel fear as humans do. CHAOS Space Marines however are selfish and nihilistic things. If they see a battle is not going their way, they will happily retreat and call it a day to save their skins. They do not fight for a common goal or some great powerful figure that they will selflessly throw themselves into the enemy for as Loyalist Marines or Cult Marines do. In the end, they look out for themselves because that's all they care about.

[minionboy]

 

 

I prefer to find solutions instead of focus on the problems.  When all you do is complain and focus on what you don't like, you are spending a lot of energy on something which will not produce results.  I firmly believe that if Chaos players would spend that energy on actually playing the game and figuring out how to make the codex work for them, it would be a much better community.

 

The only thing that we can do now is to pray that GW will salvage this situation by releasing quality legion supplements. Otherwise there's nothing that players can do about this codex. If they could then they would've found some kind of solution by now.

 

We could play the book we have (my choice), or if you're into tin-foil hats, you can accept that GW actually has an evil vendetta against chaos marine players, and quit playing chaos. :)

[Scribe]

First Claw didnt leave their buddy to die however, which I made a point of mentioning. Not all CSM are the same is the point here, to say they are all craven is false. :]

 

You make a great point, CSM will run away, kind of in the same capacity as a unit of Grey Hunters will run away.

 

The difference is, only one unit gets swept, and it goes a mmmmmmmmmassive way in determining the balance of the central unit of the codex.

 

We could go round and round on this (Legions turned into Warbands...Legions turned into Chapters...only one of these get special snowflake rules...why?)

 

However its just my own weakness keeping me involved here when I know neither of us will budge in our positions.

[Zhorzh]

@minionboy: But those aren't solutions to the problem. Switching armies/keep playing your army won't change the fact that CSM lack special rules and good units, and are outclassed by vanilla marines in almost every way. GW made this mess and they're the only one who can fix it.

[Noctus Cornix]

They did leave Mercution do die, if memory serves me. Of course that was a 'heroic sacrifice' sort of thing but still. Cyrion was more than happy to leave him.

 

Yes, of course. We are each entitled to our own opinions, we respect one another's and it is likely neither of us will sway one another.

[Scribe]

Cyrion was a bastard anyway. :D

[Noctus Cornix]

Cyrion was a bastard anyway.

And that's why he's my favorite. :D

[A D-B]

Cyrion was a bastard anyway.

Oh, yeah? Well. Well, he told me he hates you, too. And that you smell.

[minionboy]

@minionboy: But those aren't solutions to the problem. Switching armies/keep playing your army won't change the fact that CSM lack special rules and good units, and are outclassed by vanilla marines in almost every way. GW made this mess and they're the only one who can fix it.

 

Then that furthers my point that complaining is an unproductive use of energy.

 

What is a much more productive use of your time and effort is actually playing the game, looking at the tools available and then figuring out how you can work within those constraints to make an army operate as close to how you'd like as possible.  If you want Night Lords, play Night Lords, take raptors (which are actually good units) and Heldrakes and be on your merry way, hell, you can even get 4 fast attack choices by using the Black Legion allies (or heavy support if your Iron Warriors MUST have 4)!  If it is your opinion that Alpha Legion MUST infiltrate/scout, then consider ways to accomplish that (Huron, Ahriman, allies, etc.).  The tools are available, it's up to the players to use them.

 

Bickering solves nothing but is easy, thinking and problem solving are difficult, but infinitely more rewarding.

 

Also, I don't buy the vanilla out-classes chaos at everything garbage.  Can vanilla get fast assault units?  Sure, assault squads and bikers, but even their bikers lack 2 hand weapons, so really aren't that good in assault.  Can vanilla get daemon princes, or lords potentially capable of killing 10 models in a turn?  How about cultists?  Fearless T5 FNP scoring units?  Shoot, how about fairly inexpensive squads of T6 beasts with a ton of S5 attacks?  Oh, I know, their terminators are better then ours?  Uh, still no...

 

Oh, do you remember the last time your sole survivor of a Chaos Marine squad getting assaulted by monstrous creatures frustrated you by keeping them engaged in combat during your shooting phase?  Not me, he did his job and died so I could shoot at them!

 

Focus on the strengths, avoid the weaknesses, that's how any good list works, Chaos is no different.

[Noctus Cornix]

Cyrion was a bastard anyway.

Oh, yeah? Well. Well, he told me he hates you, too. And that you smell.

I'm going to frame this on my wall.

[Scribe]

Oh man, when it was revealed how he 'framed' or let Uzas take the fall, I was ENRAGED. :p

[A D-B]

Deleted, to the max.

[Scribe]

Now now, do share. :D

[Noctus Cornix]

I think AD-B and I just agreed on something.

Edit: Nevermind. Not sure why you deleted it. Nothing toxic about your post, if I'm honest and I can't see anyone getting offended over it. Ohwell, your choice, good sir.

[Scribe]

Well I hope to see it, i've gotta wait and get my brakes inspected so give me something to read! :p

[Dravenguild]

You make a good point Noctus Cornix, and I will say you are right but also wrong in my opinion. And that's the beauty of chaos there's many interpretations of it through the players but this book encapsulates none of that.

 

Chaos is a big metling pot like you say, I agree wholeheartedly to that extent. However that being said, the multifaceted nature of the faction can make any interpretation true. I'm sure you prefer the grab bag approach with a little bit of everything spread around, warp talons here a few berzerkers there and that's dandy, even then this book fails to make a cohesive effort to flesh out the army and hits a terrible middleground when neither proper renegades or proper legionnaires can be represented how they should be.

 

Just because certain legions have wittled down to warbands I don't feel like this should set a precedent to throw any legion rules out the window, last I checked Word Bearers and especially Iron Warriors operated on legion scale.

 

There is the matter of balancing such a thing, executing a concise way. As you put it "Why no berzerkers with iron warriors?" Or "Plague marines with berzerkers in a legion?" Just as a gist mind you, your text was much more eloquently put.

 

As a solution to this, I would have the "chapter tactics" of a legion locked into a generic special character much like the SM codex, except these characters can be tailored just a bit so you can have a useful HQ that still produces results for people that want to play a legion.

 

And I don't think the rules should set the precedent to restrictively theme your army, I agree. But in the very least I would like proper seige specialists rules for Iron warriors if I choose to go down that route, rather than have every chaos marine fight exactly the same way which we know they don't.

 

The theme should be self imposed and completely by choice. After all, Space wolves get Sagas and though they have a thematic oath they don't lose anything for not upholding their end but for some reason when it comes to chaos it seems to get anything whatsoever it's always us that has to give something up for nothing. Obliterators were suitably "chaos" and now loyalists get their own version, again we lose something unique to us and no overall gain.

 

So to make this less convoluted have 4 generic characters that influence legion rules, this should apply to all units and it's upon the player to keep within their own version of the fluff for unit composition. After all salamanders take speeders and white scars take dreads.

 

So while I'll never run any daemons in my IW army, or sorcerors, or apostles or cult units I impose that restriction on myself, but I would love a compensation for that through a generic HQ that gives me access to siege specialists and servo arms, maybe even bolster/tear down defenses. And this HQ isn't locked to IW it's there for everybody.

 

Either that or allying with yourself, same way loyalists do, so I could have my iron warriors how I envision them and then khornate marine allies but still being distinct ruleswise and execution rather than being 2 shades of the same black.

 

That's what my hopes were, basically everything loyalists had got, once again..

[Noctus Cornix]

Thank you for the response, Dravenguild, and you make an interesting point.

 

While, yes, I can agree we do have some kinks and flaws in our army, I don't honestly see how we are so largely outclassed even by standard loyalists. Our Chaos Marines, aren't bad. They're well rounded, efficient, and for a price can be tailored to your choice of play style. We may not have combat tactics or they shall know no fear, but we can get Initiative 5 and feel no pain a single unit. Outside of the Dark Eldar, I don't know of any army that can have that, and only their expensive elite Incubi will have the 3+ armour save.

 

Yes, I suppose you do make a good point when it comes to the question of sacrifice, but if you ask me, and this is of course just my thought, isn't sacrifice a crucial point of our theme? Chaos Space Marines, whether willingly or unwillingly fight with or for the power of callous and hungry Dark Gods who treat their subjects like play things to satiate their hunger and satisfy their amusement. We can have rather power troop choices (if you're willing to fork over the points, which I am) and our Chaos Lords and daemon princes can be utter killing machines. But power has a price. The Gods require sacrifice in blood and power and the best way to do that is through points. There is that option of strength, growing more powerful and dominating over lesser marines. But of course there is sacrifice and there is risk. It is only nature when you make deals with Daemons.

 

I do know this response is far more based around fluff and what I believe the thematic direction of Chaos as a whole, while yours was more grounded in rules, but I hope what I was trying to convey comes across.

 

Your idea about generic Legion chaos Lords is interesting, sort of a way that some Space Marine captains were in the 5th Edition Marine codex. Yes? While I cannot say I agree with you, I'm also finding difficulty understanding the idea. Maybe I'm just too far wrapped into the idea that Chaos Lords are selfish bastards and would rather be more powerful themselves than have better troops as well as the fact that I'm just not that experienced when it comes to rule design and balancing. So I honestly can't make a response that I feel would be fitting or educated on the matter. Forgive me.

[Dravenguild]

I'm simply putting that notion forth as a compromise to not only represent "Legionnaires" but also "Renegades" keeping the two camps somewhat pleased in their convictions.

 

Chaos party bus is fine for those that want it, indeed that's what the focus of this codex is, but the biggest affront to everyone else is nothing for the legions. Like you don't mind paying points to gain minimal effects on your troops I'm in the same camp. If there was a "Mark of Iron" giving my guys tanks hunters but wouldn't allow me to mark anything other than that mark I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

Barring that an HQ doing the same would be good. I feel that making lords out to be selfish bastards all the time is a bit detrimental to the perspective of chaos as a whole, I mean some lords are powerful orators or grand tacticians capable of assembling a force/ cult of personality without worrying about their fanatical underlings vying for power. All this could be true while I feel at the same time you're only as powerful as the company you keep.

 

Legion rules should be there for the people like myself that purposely restrict ourselves to follow a theme, that isn't to say the chaos swag wagon couldn't partake of these rules as well, I'm merely stating the rules SHOULD be there rather than simply catering to the greater undivided and incoherent nature of the chaos melting pot.

 

I was hoping that supplements would rectify this but sadly the black legion supp fell flat on it's ass at any attempt to make the army distinct. Unless they start doing things in the vein of the farsight enclaves we are sadly half the potential we should be.

 

Also, **** champion of chaos, if I could remove one of two rules from the game it would be this and ATSKNF.

 

I would also like to add that I wish there was less emphasis on marks or have something to offset not taking them. As it stands I'd be crazy to not take mark of nurgle on most things since Instant death weaponry is so rife in other codexes and for some reason not ours, and lacking a reliable way to get eternal warrior on our immortal champions.

[Noctus Cornix]

And I can certainly understand your reasoning to that, and I can see the appeal. I may not agree with it but I can totally see your point of view.
I simply do not feel that Legions require rules. Our flavor and diversity, when it comes to rules, if from the choice (or lack there of) in Worship of the Gods and the use of their power as well as specially tuned units like Warp Smiths and Dark Apostles to add that little extra flare. Aside from that, really the rest is up to the player to do as he wishes with his army based on unit choice and personal restrictions.

 

I personally like Champion of Chaos, even though I know I will be stoned for such a statement. To each their own, I suppose. :P

[minionboy]

I think it's funny that people think the Black Legion book was a failure, when really it did what all it needed to do.  The main book is more or less based on the Black Legion, at least in terms of the army list, so all that a supplement really had to do was say hey, there are lots of old vets, so chosen are troops and VOTLW is mandatory, and the Black Legion has some fancy toys that the other guys don't have.  Bam!  Black Legion.  If the rules were much more than that, then people would be complaining, remember all the upset people saying that the black legion didn't even need a supplement because the rules in the main book were already what black legion is?