Are we too different to play single codex?

[Dravenguild]

I wouldn't be so jaded IF the space marines had just kept to their special characters for "Chapter tactics" but the fact that they got that on top of their characters for free is damning when all legion players like myself wanted is to have what we lost in some form.

 

And no the warpsmith is unbefitting of an Iron Warriors army, he is neither a leader or befitting of his points cost and severely limited wargear selection. This is a paltry offering that makes little sense.

 

The dark apostle I've heard nothing good ever about. And the Champion of chaos rule can still go die in a fire, since when do all chaos champions act like nimrods and challenge a hive tyrant or something that will easily splat them down hard? I think Khorne is the only one that would revel in such displays. If there was something to offset such displays of idiocy then it may have some merit, but when you remove "choice" from the player don't expect good results. I want a choice whether I want to challenge that rather large tyranid bioform or skulk into the shadows to fight another day, not all champions are reckless idiots with the combat prowess of a normal space marine. Asp. Champions whould have at least +1 weapons skill in challenges or overall.

[Noctus Cornix]

Let's not bring up the complaining that has been done in the past, shall we Minionboy? Let's try to remain positive and professional about this.

[Scribe]

I dont think the BL Supplement was a failure, I think it probably accomplished what it aimed to. Much like Abby's Crusades in that respect.

I think I have a grasp on your perspective noctus cornix, one of taking the book as a whole when (some) of the Legion fans are quite intentionally looking for an actual rule to differentiate their choice from the 'other'.

The problem (if you consider it one) is that of unification. Some obviously dont care about that, and frankly I guess I would love to see some well done fiction that pushes the 'Chaos as a whole' view point. Perhaps the Black Legion series will do this.

Others however, look at the Night Lord series (sorry ADB, dont feel you need to defend anything as its not an attack) as a great example of how even in the current time frame, or near current, the Legions have at least a semblance of loyalty to their own.

Thats what people want to get across in their rules.

Chaos Lord, Jump Pack

2 x 10 CSM

3 x 10 Raptors

Valid army yes?

Is it Alpha Legion, Night Lords, or Iron Warriors? The whole issue (to some of us) is that you cant say while to others thats the best part of it. Thats why the community is so divided, our views are simply opposite on the nature of the faction, and what we each want out of it.

[minionboy]

Let's not bring up the complaining that has been done in the past, shall we Minionboy? Let's try to remain positive and professional about this.

 

Haha, I was just responding to someone bringing up those old complaints again.

 

I wouldn't be so jaded IF the space marines had just kept to their special characters for "Chapter tactics" but the fact that they got that on top of their characters for free is damning when all legion players like myself wanted is to have what we lost in some form.

 

And no the warpsmith is unbefitting of an Iron Warriors army, he is neither a leader or befitting of his points cost and severely limited wargear selection. This is a paltry offering that makes little sense.

 

The dark apostle I've heard nothing good ever about. And the Champion of chaos rule can still go die in a fire, since when do all chaos champions act like nimrods and challenge a hive tyrant or something that will easily splat them down hard? I think Khorne is the only one that would revel in such displays. If there was something to offset such displays of idiocy then it may have some merit, but when you remove "choice" from the player don't expect good results. I want a choice whether I want to challenge that rather large tyranid bioform or skulk into the shadows to fight another day, not all champions are reckless idiots with the combat prowess of a normal space marine. Asp. Champions whould have at least +1 weapons skill in challenges or overall.

 

Well, I'm guessing they probably thought the characters and new units were adequate to help represent the influence that the now mostly disbanded legions have had on the warbands that it's former members have now joined.  When everyone got all cry-faced with the chaos release, they probably though, "hmmm... people want a bit more than that" so started cranking on a supplement to get things started for chaos, and decided when the SM book came around, to make the Chapter Tactics, as a result of them actually listening to their player base... I find this to be a much more plausible situation than GW outright deciding that they should screw Chaos players.

 

I think it would be foolish to look at the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith and think that GW wasn't trying to appease the legions with this book.

[Dravenguild]

Though I'm not sure there hearts were in the right place with that, why no bike/jump pack/ steeds for dark apostle? Or bike for warpsmith? It's that kind of stuff that really leaves me scratching my head. Sure they FAQ'd in command squad weapons for space marines, weapons for veterans in dark angels and more ravenwing knights/ mounted command squad but no bike for the warpsmith?

 

Not too mention they are priced way above the lord and sorcerer for very little to show for it.

[daboarder]

 

Let's not bring up the complaining that has been done in the past, shall we Minionboy? Let's try to remain positive and professional about this.

 

Haha, I was just responding to someone bringing up those old complaints again.

 

>I wouldn't be so jaded IF the space marines had just kept to their special characters for "Chapter tactics" but the fact that they got that on top of their characters for free is damning when all legion players like myself wanted is to have what we lost in some form.

 

And no the warpsmith is unbefitting of an Iron Warriors army, he is neither a leader or befitting of his points cost and severely limited wargear selection. This is a paltry offering that makes little sense.

 

The dark apostle I've heard nothing good ever about. And the Champion of chaos rule can still go die in a fire, since when do all chaos champions act like nimrods and challenge a hive tyrant or something that will easily splat them down hard? I think Khorne is the only one that would revel in such displays. If there was something to offset such displays of idiocy then it may have some merit, but when you remove "choice" from the player don't expect good results. I want a choice whether I want to challenge that rather large tyranid bioform or skulk into the shadows to fight another day, not all champions are reckless idiots with the combat prowess of a normal space marine. Asp. Champions whould have at least +1 weapons skill in challenges or overall.

 

Well, I'm guessing they probably thought the characters and new units were adequate to help represent the influence that the now mostly disbanded legions have had on the warbands that it's former members have now joined.  When everyone got all cry-faced with the chaos release, they probably though, "hmmm... people want a bit more than that" so started cranking on a supplement to get things started for chaos, and decided when the SM book came around, to make the Chapter Tactics, as a result of them actually listening to their player base... I find this to be a much more plausible situation than GW outright deciding that they should screw Chaos players.

 

I think it would be foolish to look at the Dark Apostle and Warpsmith and think that GW wasn't trying to appease the legions with this book.

 

 

Which would be great.....but they had 4 years to listen to the players and still didn't....so forgive me for being skeptical that this was the case.

[the jeske]

Wait wait wait... what? I just want to be clear, you honestly believe

that it was more likely GW deciding to actively screw over chaos

players? LOL

You tell me . They did it when they made the gav dex . The chaos dex looks like it does [both of them actualy , considering we have 2 now] because of how GW sells policy for an army looks like and how a chaos legion army book [the type 3.5 was] doesn't fit in to it.

Look at my response in context. The person was someone who didn't want

to play competitively, so how a unit performs competitively isn't the

point. Also, sure, a bunch of crazy guy son motorcycles riding you down

as you flee through the streets with giant mechanical deamon dragons

farting fire all over the place is still terrifying!

dude what streets there is no rules for streets in w40k . there is also little place for running in the game when most armies are fearless/ATKNF no matter if you play in a tournament or not .

Here has been the chaos war cry this entire edition, "We want

supplements! Supplements suck!" Everyone wants special rules, but

complains that they got them, or that they should have had them first.

There are eldar players that wanted to play a ghost army . There are players that wanted to play a suit army . Non of the are game breaking [specialy played stand alone] , in fact most people view them as weaker then their parent books. What did chaos get . A BL book to an already BL codex . An option to play more chosen , which are a bad unit no man would want to play , making terminators cost more [when they redeeming factor in the chaos codex is being costed less then the loyalists] after you take a +250pts tax and being forced in to taking an upgrade which aint worth the points it costs for the units that BL can take . So in the end the whole codex is turned in to an extra HQ/"helldrake"/cultists slot and that sucks hard , compering to what the other supplments can give .

Your own vision of what makes an Alpha Legion army or a Night Lords army

might actually not be what the game designers agree with, isn't that a

funny thought?

But they want the same thing for all factions. GW wants to players to maximize the number of different units bought , with focus on center pice models and large kits. the problem they have with chaos legions is that when a dude makes chaos army he isn't buying a lot of the models in the chaos range . not that it is a bad thing to do , but it does screw legions as a playable faction a lot.

[totgeboren]

 

Forgive me for making an assumption but I can only guess that the most prominent thing on your mind is the addition of Legion rules, yes? I know that there are quite a few Chaos players who wish for its safe return. To be fair though, and in my honest opinion, the 3.5 Codex, for all its cool tid bits of fluff and flavor, is perhaps the worst plague on the Chaos Community as a whole. Am I saying that the rules are bad? No. Am I saying that the codex was bad? No. But it has shown a skewed and misguided portrayal of what Chaos is. Chaos is, and always has been, a melting pot. The Eye of terror is a homogenous conflagration, where traitors, killers, heretics, and warriors unit under the banner of warlords and champions with the thoughts of revenge, domination, and apotheosis ever-present in their minds. The Legions are dead. Fluff dictates that nearly every Legion save for the Black Legion and Word Bearers (and even these have their splinters, renegades, and sub-factions) have shattered into warbands and splinters, each warrior seeking his own battle and his own future. Is there Legion specifics warbands? Certainly but these are far few and inbetween things. The ‘pure’ Traitor Marine is a nearly extinct breed of renegade. Isolation, in-fighting, and desperation will have those who wish to survive for themselves to call upon the power of thirsty-Gods and, whether they like the Gods or not, use it. There is no excuse. No exception. And no differentiation.

 

 

LD 8 is a perfect standing for which each Chaos Space Marine to be. So what if they do live in the Eye of Terror. Failing a leadership check does not mean you are running scared. Space Marines do not feel fear as humans do. CHAOS Space Marines however are selfish and nihilistic things. If they see a battle is not going their way, they will happily retreat and call it a day to save their skins. They do not fight for a common goal or some great powerful figure that they will selflessly throw themselves into the enemy for as Loyalist Marines or Cult Marines do. In the end, they look out for themselves because that's all they care about.

 

Though I appreciate your enthusiasm, there are two problems in your post that I would like to point out.

 

First is the statement that the legions are dead and gone. This is true in general. The SoH are gone, as are the WE, EC. The DG and TS are split in two, and the NL are also split. The IW and WB are definitely not split. The AL seem to be conducting business as usual though, whatever that means. But even acknowledging this, these legions and former legions are not split into 10-man squads. They are split into warbands. That is, those that are split are split into say a 'former-EC' warband, or a 'former-NL' warband, and in many cases they still regard themselves as belonging to their legion. The NL are a perfect example, in that they are a quite varied bunch, but just because their Primarch is dead does not mean that they on average have abandoned their previous ways and fight just as anyone else.

 

The codex is constructed around the premise that the legions are split into separate 5-20 man squads, whilst the fluff clearly portrays them as being split more along the line of companies and chapters, following a charismatic or powerful commander. That is, the mixing of legions only starts to become noticeable when you approach the 'several hundred marines' stage.

 

Also, maybe you can help me here, but could you mention one piece of background from Black Library that presents a non-legion themed warband? Off the top of my head, I can't at least. And trying to turn chaos into this weird "mixed-warband" idea would mean throwing out almost all background materiel published on chaos marines, even the old RoC background.

 

And the second point is about the Ld thing. If if makes sense that a marine who fights for some great god, say Nurgle, and as such has the Mark of Nurgle (Plague Marine) would throw themselves selflessly at the enemy, why does it also make sense that a marine who fights for some great god, say Nurgle, and as such has the Mark of Nurgle (CSM+MoN) will happily retreat and call it a day to save his skins?

 

You are using the exact same justification for two opposite conclusions.

[Noctus Cornix]

Forgive me for being blunt, but there are no problems within any of my post. You simply have a differing opinion, sir and I would appreciate it if you understand the difference between the two.

 

I did indeed state in my post that there are some Legions (Black Legion and Word Bearers) that still remain in tact, and I acknowledge that fact. The point of the matter is that whether the Chaos marines split into squads, individuals, or companies is completely irrelevant. Chaos Space Marine warbands, whether they originated from a Company or a Conglomeration, is not an organized thing. The particular tastes and fighting styles of the individuals may still remain but that does not stand across the entire space of the warband. They don't have the strict rigorous combat doctrines of the Loyalist Marines. If you want an army focused on siege and anti-tank, buy vehicles and havoks. Want an army that's focused on fast attack? Buy raptors and bikes. You don't need a single tiny additional rule to tell you what Legion your guys are from. I'm not saying that simply no longer being part of a full Legion takes away the fighting style of the Legionnaire, but it is something so miniscule that to demand special rules JUST for those who want pure warbands is unnecessary and if I'm honest, selfish.

 

I fail to see anything of what Black Library has to do with this (because it really doesn't) But the Warband of Honsou comes to mind. Is he a full fledged Iron Warrior? No. Does that matter? No. I can also bring up Huron Black Heart if I wanted to. He's not a Legion Marine but he's a Chaos Marine just the same, and look at his warband. You're attempting to construe my words into something entirely different. I never said that ALL warbands are now these giant melting pot. Many may still be largely in tact. But to imagine that these warbands are the exact same as they were 10,000 years ago is ridiculous. Allies are made. Stragglers are picked up. Leaders die and new ones step up to the plate. A lot happens in 10,000 years and not a single warband, whether their time in the warp will be that of a hundred years or a hundred thousand, it makes no difference. Time and again the fluff has mentioned alliances between Warbands and Chaos Space Marines aswell as individual traitors that unit themselves with others to fight for a common goal. It's not throwing out any background. That's the same background it has always been.

 

Concerning that of Marks, there is a difference in being a cult marine and a Marine who simply has the Mark of a God. A Mark shows the divine favor of the God, a symbol that they are content with their work aswell as keeping an ever watchful eye on them. You don't even have to like the God to get the Mark. The Chaos Gods couldn't care less. Cult Marines are those who have, for the most part, given themselves body and soul to their God. They are a grade above that of simply having a Mark. Marks are relatively minor things, even mortals can obtain them. So really, I'm not.

[AekoldHelbrass]

What is a much more productive use of your time and effort is actually playing the game, looking at the tools available and then figuring out how you can work within those constraints to make an army operate as close to how you'd like as possible.  If you want Night Lords, play Night Lords, take raptors (which are actually good units) and Heldrakes and be on your merry way, hell, you can even get 4 fast attack choices by using the Black Legion allies (or heavy support if your Iron Warriors MUST have 4)!  If it is your opinion that Alpha Legion MUST infiltrate/scout, then consider ways to accomplish that (Huron, Ahriman, allies, etc.).  The tools are available, it's up to the players to use them.

I've been trying to do that for like 5 years already. Not a single victory with 4th edition CSM Night Lords (no marks), not a single lose with count as BA, 50-50 rate with 3.5 Night Lords (it was fun even to lose with 3.5, unlike winning with 4). Written my own set of home rules, 50-50 rate of loses against BA but at least that was fun. Most opponents agreed to play against it, but every time and again I heard "cheater" remark about it, even if I showed more powerful builds with pure CSM or BA.

 

After 5 years of constant failures I do not believe any more CSM is salvageable for Night Lords, and I do not believe home rules will ever be taken seriously in any community, while even HH rules can be accepted as a codex variant (FW kind of proved that allowing Erebus to ally with Daemons).

 

How much more fun can it be? My idea of "having fun" shifted to "playing Sons of Horus", that's it, I'm giving up on CSM and all spin-offs, will use it only as allies to my Daemons. Don't you think it's productive?

 

The thing is, I didn't started this topic as another rant, I'm just surprised we are all together under one subforum, and most of us want to "fix the world", but from what I see - we are too different to have one solution to fit them all, we belong to different groups, someone wants to play "count as", someone wants homerules, someone switched to Daemons primary, and someone is just leaving CSM behind (like Nihm did earlier and I'm following now). Probably we'll be way happier having something similar to loyalist scum, but I'm not even considering that option as it is too late for that.

 

For some reason I cannot find where to add vote to this topic, otherwise it would be interesting to see statistics.

[RapatoR]

Well this subforum had thread, which proved that legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did. I bet that folks at GW tried it with Chos dex and realised it is hard to manage, so instead they put an effort into supplements. We will see soon engough. 

[totgeboren]

Forgive me for being blunt, but there are no problems within any of my post. You simply have a differing opinion, sir and I would appreciate it if you understand the difference between the two.

 

I did indeed state in my post that there are some Legions (Black Legion and Word Bearers) that still remain in tact, and I acknowledge that fact. The point of the matter is that whether the Chaos marines split into squads, individuals, or companies is completely irrelevant. Chaos Space Marine warbands, whether they originated from a Company or a Conglomeration, is not an organized thing. The particular tastes and fighting styles of the individuals may still remain but that does not stand across the entire space of the warband. They don't have the strict rigorous combat doctrines of the Loyalist Marines. If you want an army focused on siege and anti-tank, buy vehicles and havoks. Want an army that's focused on fast attack? Buy raptors and bikes. You don't need a single tiny additional rule to tell you what Legion your guys are from. I'm not saying that simply no longer being part of a full Legion takes away the fighting style of the Legionnaire, but it is something so miniscule that to demand special rules JUST for those who want pure warbands is unnecessary and if I'm honest, selfish.

 

I fail to see anything of what Black Library has to do with this (because it really doesn't) But the Warband of Honsou comes to mind. Is he a full fledged Iron Warrior? No. Does that matter? No. I can also bring up Huron Black Heart if I wanted to. He's not a Legion Marine but he's a Chaos Marine just the same, and look at his warband. You're attempting to construe my words into something entirely different. I never said that ALL warbands are now these giant melting pot. Many may still be largely in tact. But to imagine that these warbands are the exact same as they were 10,000 years ago is ridiculous. Allies are made. Stragglers are picked up. Leaders die and new ones step up to the plate. A lot happens in 10,000 years and not a single warband, whether their time in the warp will be that of a hundred years or a hundred thousand, it makes no difference. Time and again the fluff has mentioned alliances between Warbands and Chaos Space Marines aswell as individual traitors that unit themselves with others to fight for a common goal. It's not throwing out any background. That's the same background it has always been.

 

Concerning that of Marks, there is a difference in being a cult marine and a Marine who simply has the Mark of a God. A Mark shows the divine favor of the God, a symbol that they are content with their work aswell as keeping an ever watchful eye on them. You don't even have to like the God to get the Mark. The Chaos Gods couldn't care less. Cult Marines are those who have, for the most part, given themselves body and soul to their God. They are a grade above that of simply having a Mark. Marks are relatively minor things, even mortals can obtain them. So really, I'm not.

I might be misremembering, but Honsou lead a IW warband did he not? He himself was an IW, even if he had IF geneseed (not a big difference when you consider that those two legions are almost mirror images of each other). And if your opinion is that many 'legion'-warbands are intact, how does it make sense that a CSM codex only focuses on the ones that are a mishmash of traitors and renegades? And how does this translate into the idea that the 3.5 codex was a bad thing conceptually? It allowed people to field mixed warbands, but it also allowed those who wanted a legion theme to field such armies without being penalised.

 

That is exactly what people seem to want. The ability to field either mix-warbands, or themed warbands, without being penalised either way.

 

About the marks... there is no background supporting your notion that Cult followers are more dedicated to their God than other god-aligned chaos marines who can just get a mark without paying a God any homage at all. It is an ad-hoc explanation for making sense of incoherent rules.

That is, the rules are driving the background in your head, not the other way around.

And sure, I do this too. I have a count-as Typhus, and I have an explanation for all his rules that make sense on my Undivided Chief Apothecary. But if I made up a Undivided Chief Apothecary from scratch, his rules would not be the same as Typhus. My Dark Apostle with MoT doesn't actually have the MoT, he is just blessed by the dark powers and so on.

 

But GW says that they make models and background first, and rules for these models later. Since they have made up a background that is heavily themed around legions, it is reasonable of the players to expect rules that represent the background GW has presented. And BL have a huge thing to do with this, as the material that comes out of BL is as canon as that GW produces (according to GW/FW and BL).

 

This is extra apparent in the BL supplement, where we have page after page describing how the BL now are a mix of old legionnaires from all the legions, centered around a core of old SoH marines, and how they welcome old traitor and new renegade alike, as long as they wear the black.

And when we come to the rules, they must all pay for being Veterans of the Long War, even though it is stated numerous times before that not all BL members are old veterans. This disconnect between the CSM concepts and the CSM rules is really frustrating for many CSM players.

[the jeske]

I might be misremembering, but Honsou lead a IW warband did he not?

Didn't he lead a company of half breeds just like him. He was at best disliked by the Iron Warrior Iron Warriors ,and considering how his trilogy ended it would have been better for the IW , if he didn't rise to great company command.

 

there is no background supporting your notion that Cult followers are

more dedicated to their God than other god-aligned chaos marines who can

just get a mark without paying a God any homage at all.

Was that changed lately ? Cult marines don't have souls anymore , they are one step down from demons . They can't stop worshiping their god or doing their gods will[or if they do it is spawn dome at best] . A non marked marine can make a sacrifice to khorn one day , then slanesh next .His chance to get something out of doing stuff is lower then a cult marines , but at least he can do what he wants to .

 

 

After 5 years of constant failures I do not believe any more CSM is

salvageable for Night Lords, and I do not believe home rules will ever

be taken seriously in any community, while even HH rules can be accepted

as a codex variant (FW kind of proved that allowing Erebus to ally with

Daemons).

The Jeske <= 5th ed spend playing NM . Never again will I play an army just to be different . An NM were no where near NL or 1ksons lvl of "teh suck" in 5th.

[Gree]

Well this subforum had thread, which proved that legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did.

Where did it prove that?

[Kol Saresk]

Honsou was the only half-breed in his warband. All the other Astartes were either Iron Warriors, Renegades or the Neverborn.

 

And Noctus is right. None of the Legions are really Legions anymore. The Lords of Medrengard are so feared and awed that it was a warband of 30-something subservient Iron Warriors who first mentioned them. The Dark Council has so much control over the Word Bearers that they couldn't even keep a force of 5(6?) Hosts from tearing itself apart. The Black Legion is the most cohesive of them all an even it can't quell the infighting or stop splinter-factions from forming; it can only cut off its nose despite its face.

 

Besides, Chaos players who want 3.5 rules don't want Legion tactics. They want Chaos Chapter tactics. Now, what's the difference?

 

In 30K, the Legions were diverse. The Word Bearers had assault companies, the World Eaters had armored divisions and so on. When the "Age of the Warband" came forth, the Legions were fractured. They were forced to survive off of whatever equipment they had and whatever tactics they were used to using.

 

That Word Bearers Assault Company would end up becoming a Raptor Cult. That Iron Warriors Recon/Sapper company now relies solely on stealth and sabotage rather than artillery to take down walls. That Night Lords armored claw no longer makes a hole in the wall for Terror squads to get into; now it runs down screaming Guardsmen while roadhauling Astartes.

 

But you couldn't represent these in 3.5 properly. As Jeske pointed out, the Word Bearers would have to be Night Lords, the Iron Warriors would have to be Alpha Legion and the Night Lords would have to be Iron Warriors. Those aren't Legion rules.

 

If Legion rules are to exist, they are to promote ideals and mindsets. An Iron Warriors warband should always be cold and calculating, regardless if they are bombing walls or doing high crawl through the mud. The Night Lords should always be focused on causing terror and so on.

 

But we didn't really have that in 3.5.

 

Scribe of Khorne pointed out a basic list and said "How do we know if this is Alpha Legion, Night Lords or Iron Warriors?"

 

I respond by saying "It shouldn't matter." it shouldn't be the list that is determined by the Legion, but our gameplay.

 

Right now using Forgeworld, I can use a bare-naked Consul, three bare-naked 20-man Tactical squads and an artillery squadron of two Whirlwinds for ~1000 points.

 

If I use Night Lord rules, I get stealth and +1 Wound whenever my squads outnumber the squads they're fighting on the initiative step.

 

If I use World Eaters, I get bonuses for winning battles.

 

And the examples go on. I can use the exact same list for every Legion and its use will change depending on which Legiones Astartes () I use.

 

Those are Legion rules. Because when 40K roles around, not all of the Night Lords will be fast moving assault armies. Not all of the Iron Warriors will be siege armies. And not all of the Word Bearers will be support armies. But if they are puritan, they will still be Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers regardless of what they do, because that is who they are. And if I'm not mistaken, that's the point of Legion rules. Not to play a specific stule of gameplay, but to represent a specific faction and its way of thinking. Night Lords should always be able to use Night Lord rules, Word Bearers Word Bearers, Alpha Legion Alpha Legion and so on so forth etc etc etc.

 

True Legion rules won't force us to "switch Legions" just to put our specific image on the tabletop. That's wht Chapter Tactics are for.

[Gree]

Besides, Chaos players who want 3.5 rules don't want Legion tactics. They want Chaos Chapter tactics. Now, what's the difference?

I would like my Night Lords to have Night Vision at least. I always feel silly when in Night Fight my Night Lords are often at a disadvantage compared to my opponent.

[Scribe]

Exactly my point Kol and something that is displayed in the SM book.

 

Captain, 2 x 10 Tacs, 10 Assault Marines.

 

It can be any Chapter, but that chapter selected has an impact. Thats the point that is so often missed. You dont need to narrow the view, you just take a template to the list to flavour the rules a bit.

 

Your right, in that Forge World operates the same way.

 

List -> Legion 'traits' -> Rites of War.

 

You select a list. You apply legion 'traits' to it, and if you want to focus on a specic style or aspect, you run a Rites of War. Its the best of both worlds.

 

EDIT: I feel I have failed in describing my point, as have all the 3.5 fans.

 

You dont need to add back in things like +1 FA, or Raptors are troops. Throw in Night Vision, throw in some rules that reinforce a play style or methodology, but you dont need to cut out half the book.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Besides, Chaos players who want 3.5 rules don't want Legion tactics. They want Chaos Chapter tactics. Now, what's the difference?

I would like my Night Lords to have Night Vision at least. I always feel silly when in Night Fight my Night Lords are often at a disadvantage compared to my opponent.

Read the rest of it. Trust me, I sympathize and I believe I got that point across of what I meant by Legion rules versus what I have dubbed "Chaos Chapter Tactics".

[Lay]

Forgeworld, yes, the beloved Forgeworld that somehow makes everything right, has made THE ONLY Alpha Legion special character ever to exist since 2nd edition.  GW has never done it, FW did, though they didn't make a model for him.  Now guess what?  HE DOES NOT INFILTRATE!

That's probably because Arkos was created when the 3.5 Codex was still around.

What the 3.5 codex did was it restricted players who found themselves attracted to certain Legions. It set them with guidelines, rules organization but most importantly it rewarded them for it with personal traits and advantages. Why? Why should Night Lords not be allowed to follow the Blood God? Why can you not take Noise Marines or Plague Marines into battle alongside your Iron Warriors?

Does that mean a World Eater Warband cannot take Plague Marines? Why can Warlord Zhuphor not make an alliance with the Lords of Decay to purge an Imperial World when it is convenient and profitable for both of them? And what if you make the rules squad by squad based? Which squads can take them? Is it only available to standard Chaos Space Marines? Why so? Can a Khorne Berzerker not be from the Iron Warriors? What legitimate claim does an unmarked marine over one that is? The entire question becomes convoluted and a giant jumbled mess to which there is no answer that can work well without offering a blanket statement about each former Member of a now dead Legion.

"The attraction of the Chaos Space Marines is the blend of certain tragedy and grim uncompromising ferocity that drives them on. They are also incredibly diverse; from the chainaxe-wielding Berzerkers of Khorne to the sorcerer-warriors of Tzeentch, each Chaos Space Marines Legion has a unique appearance and method of fighting. Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of the members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful Lord." - Codex CSM 3.5, p.2

The Legions are dead. Fluff dictates that nearly every Legion save for the Black Legion and Word Bearers (and even these have their splinters, renegades, and sub-factions) have shattered into warbands and splinters, each warrior seeking his own battle and his own future. Is there Legion specifics warbands?

Nowhere does the current fluff say that Legions are "dead". Likewise, nowhere did the fluff in the 3.5 Codex say that Legions are cohesive forces.

The Chaos Legions have been around since RT and they have always been comprised of warring warbands. The notion that one excludes the other is something that first came up when the 4ed Codex came out.

That Word Bearers Assault Company would end up becoming a Raptor Cult. That Iron Warriors Recon/Sapper company now relies solely on stealth and sabotage rather than artillery to take down walls. That Night Lords armored claw no longer makes a hole in the wall for Terror squads to get into; now it runs down screaming Guardsmen while roadhauling Astartes.

 

But you couldn't represent these in 3.5 properly. As Jeske pointed out, the Word Bearers would have to be Night Lords, the Iron Warriors would have to be Alpha Legion and the Night Lords would have to be Iron Warriors. Those aren't Legion rules.

Or you could just buy "siege specialists" for Night Lords and "infiltrate" for Iron Warriors. You just didn't get a fancy discount.

[Noctus Cornix]

Then I would suggest you go read Blood Harvest. (I think that's the name of the short story) They start as a small Iron Warriror's Warband and end as a giant mesh of different traitors and renegades under Honsou's rule.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself concerning the 3.5 Rules and why its bad in my eyes. I've already said it atleast twice and I posted because I was asked.

[Brother Aiwass]

I just need Legion/Chapter traits and the 3.5 ed armoury :lol:

[minionboy]

Then I would suggest you go read Blood Harvest. (I think that's the name of the short story) They start as a small Iron Warriror's Warband and end as a giant mesh of different traitors and renegades under Honsou's rule.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself concerning the 3.5 Rules and why its bad in my eyes. I've already said it atleast twice and I posted because I was asked.

 

Isn't it funny that the bigger the fluff bunny, the more fluff they tend to ignore?  :)

 

I personally love that chaos marines switch allegiances to suit their needs... it's a very selfish act, and chaos marines are selfish at best.

[AekoldHelbrass]

totgeboren, on 20 Sept 2013 - 11:47, said:

First is the statement that the legions are dead and gone. This is true in general.

Haven't you yet learned the main rule of 40k? There are no facts, ever. There are only romours and opinions.

 

1. Time in warp goes not like in real world, it is still possible for some Legions to live only 100 years or so since Terra, and still be relatively clean and well-equiped. There is no way to represent that.

 

2. Your understanding of "warband" is completely wrong. There were about 100 000 of Night Lords during the HH and in years after that, can you guarantee 100% probability there are absolutely no warbands more than 2000 strong, who still have their factory barges, their mechanicum escorts and some ore worlds on the far ends of Eastern Fringe? "warband" does not mean "5 dozens", it is just a synonym to "chapter" for Traitor Legions. Think of Black Templars, they are basically EF warband, they have their numbers, their fleet, their supplies and their recruiting grounds. Nothing unmanageable for bigger warband.

 

What FW did right with HH, as ADB said, they are very good at not being a fun police. If you want - do a warband, if you want - do a Legion. While GW act as a fun police - fun means horde of zombies and double dragon, if you're not agree - go away.

[Kol Saresk]

The only way a warband could escape the Heresy that unscathed was if they did minimal or no fighting.

 

Do we have numbers of the Night Lords following the Heresy?

[Scribe]

Numbers? I think not. Void Stalker would be our best bet to get a sense of it I think, but even then, how many survived the Ultra's (and friends) attack?

Then I would suggest you go read Blood Harvest. (I think that's the name of the short story) They start as a small Iron Warriror's Warband and end as a giant mesh of different traitors and renegades under Honsou's rule.

I'm not going to repeat myself concerning the 3.5 Rules and why its bad in my eyes. I've already said it atleast twice and I posted because I was asked.

Isn't it funny that the bigger the fluff bunny, the more fluff they tend to ignore?

I personally love that chaos marines switch allegiances to suit their needs... it's a very selfish act, and chaos marines are selfish at best.

Welcome to 40K, where any interpretation is canon, lie, half truth, or opinion all at the same time. :]