Are we too different to play single codex?

[Kol Saresk]

Sadly, Void Stalker only recounts how the Night Lords were being torn apart and mainly focused on the Covenant of Blood and its couple-dozen survivors escaping the Shattering. Of course afterwards, Acerbus is able to round a considerable portion of the Legion and is said to control one of, if not the, the largest Warbands, of indeterminate strength. Although it is large enough to give one of the more well-off-to-do Craftworlds a decent scare, ten thousand years ago. So I'm willing to say pretty big.

[arkagl]

Def number 2. Look at all the different well rounded armies 3.5 had when it was usable. Ppl place in top 10 all the time at GTs now we're lucky to get top 50. 3 is a result of 1 bc ppl found the only good army to make with the codex they were given.

[RapatoR]

 

Well this subforum had thread, which proved that legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did.

Where did it prove that?

Well, as soon as thread started people started suggesting more complex rules than in SM dex.

[Gree]

 

 

 

 

Well this subforum had thread, which proved that legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did.

Where did it prove that?

 

 

Well, as soon as thread started people started suggesting more complex rules than in SM dex.

 

 

That doesn't meant anything, as many people suggested simple and elegant rules for the Legion. For example, my Night Lords rules were short and covered the basic elements of the Night Lords. (They cause Fear and can see in the dark) In fact I modeled my rules explicitly after the ones in the Marine Dex.

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

Also, **** champion of chaos, if I could remove one of two rules from the game it would be this and ATSKNF.

 

I would also like to add that I wish there was less emphasis on marks or have something to offset not taking them. As it stands I'd be crazy to not take mark of nurgle on most things since Instant death weaponry is so rife in other codexes and for some reason not ours, and lacking a reliable way to get eternal warrior on our immortal champions.

 

 

I'd be happy if ATSKNF was only on the Sargent, since if I recall the USR ATSKNF is transferred to the unit like how Fearless would be.  It would emphasize the importance of loyalist sergeants, and make them think twice about throwing them away in a challenge if it meant that the unit would lose that rule.

 

I used to complain a bit about the Champion of chaos rule...but I've been doing pretty well with them.  My Warp Talons (5 man squad with Veterans) did good work for me the other day.  Yeah, they were initiative 1 assaulting the unit I went after (for the first turn) but they kicked that tactical squad's teeth in regardless, letting my CSMs holding the objective to just sit back and admire the carnage.

[Sception]

People have different conceptions of the legions in 40k, and some of those conceptions are such that they could share a codex, and some aren't. On the one hand, the physical reality of the game is such that we wont be getting multiple csm codeces, and probably wont be seeinng a return of 3.5, which squeezed multiple codeces worth of content into a single book. For this reason, the conceptions of the legions that allow them to share largely similar structures in terms of the units they have available, but that doesnt mean the other conceptions cant exist in the game simultaneously. Aft3r all, theres always supplements, and fw campaign lists.

 

I do think it isnt unreasonable to ask for a somewhat more flexible csm codex though, to alleviate a bit of the pressure.

 

My own conception of the legions in the 40k era is that heresy vets would be in the minority for the most part. The commanders and elite core of armies compraised of cultists and post heresy chaos marines - some corrupted loyalists, some created by thechaos legions themselves.

 

Maybe take chosen back to being a crazy customizeable unit - terminator upgrades, cult upgrades, or vet skills if not cult, jump packs, bikes, etc, but limited in total number. Have them replace warp talons and terminators. Then add a generic chaos vet or 'legionaire' unit to replace them as regular elites in power armor, with a choice of vet skills, but not the other options. Leave the cults in elites, and let warlord alignment shift either associated cult unit or vet unit, if unaligned, into troops. Rest of book organization stays more or less as it is, with appropriate rule and cost updates, but champs can be upgraded to 'chosen champs', with superior stats and gear, for an appropriate cost. Chosen champs would count against the limited number of total chosen per detachment (maybe 10 per primary, 5 per allied?).

 

most of your legion flavor would come accross in whar you do with your hq and chosen, and which color vets youd make troops, and if it were the non cult vet squad, what skill youd give them.

 

For instance, a black legion player might run chosen champs in his squads with some sort of possession upgrade or daemonic gifts, and take the rest to form a badass terminator retinue for his undivided lord. He might give them a 'pref enemy: space marines' vet skill, since that seems fluffy for black legion to him. His undivided warlord would shift legionaire squads to troops, and he could field a few of them, again with a 'preferred enemy: space marines' vet skill.

 

Amother player might play world eaters. She also might use her chosen as terminators, but instead of pref enemy, shed give them an upgrade to berzerkers. Her khorne-marked berzerker warlord would make berzerkers troops, instead of legionnaire squads.

 

A night lords player might upgrade his chosen with jump packs and daemonic talons instead of terminator armor, and give them a hit and run vet skill, and take hit and run vets with special weapons in troops.

 

All of the rest of their armies might look pretty similar. Cultists and basic csm troops with chosen champs to fill out scoring units, bikes and raptors in fast, havoks and oblits in heavy, maybe some dark mechanicus themed support in spare elite slots, etc. The character of their legions, however, would come accross in the veteran themed units, which wouokd set the tone for the rest of their armies.

 

Legion rules could be lightly layered on top of this. Black legion might give models with pref enemy: marines thecrusader rule. World eaters might give berzerker units adamantium will. Night lords might give units with hit and run fear and night vision. Etc. Not a straight jacket, just a nudge in a particular direction.

 

Yes, chosen would end up as a monster unit entry of the type ive complained about, but it would be just the one entry, and a thematic focus of the book, and theyd be limited in number, so I think in that one case it would be worth the hassle, as for wolf guard in space wolves.

[Excessus]

I was hoping GW would do Chosen something like Wolf Guards for this codex, they fit the theme perfectly...

 

Boy was I wrong...

[Tenebris]

You tell, Thousand Sons...anyone. I bailed out a good sum of money to make a full Tzeentch army with the Thousands Sons at the core...oh boy how was I to be disappointed. 

 

At this moment my patience is running thing, it seems that even the daemons of Tzeentch got the shaft too, namely Horrors of which I was always a fan, so my full hope is staked on two books, Book of Tzeentch and Thousand Sons supplement should they happen. My sole wish for far in my 40k career is to murder Space Wolves in thousands upon thousands of painful ways, it gets never old and never will. 

 

I remember Prospero...

[the jeske]

horrors aren't bad[where bad=1ksons lvl] they are just very uneven and suffer from then "and my opponent had a rune priest" . And uneven in a random codex can bite you back in the ass like few other things.

[ChaosRising]

 

I was hoping GW would do Chosen something like Wolf Guards for this codex, they fit the theme perfectly...

 

Boy was I wrong...

I may be reading into this too much, but I think GW was aiming to make Chosen the equivalent of a Loyalist Chapter's 1st Co./Veteran Co., but with a Chaosy spin. Given the background of the Traitor Legions and Renegades, it actually seems quite fitting.

[Tenebris]

Ahh the Chosen, a great idea, a bad execution. Would it be a year ago they were somehow in a niche but now with already two more MEQ codexes out we can easily compare them to the Dark Angels Veterans and the Honor Guard, Sternguard and Vanguard that are now running around. I would be willing to pay their price in points if the Chosen if not a template for a terminator unit would be at least on power and wargear level of the Honor Guard. Not that would be some serious Chosen. 

[Urauloth]

The relentless advance of the Word Bearers is a terrifying sight, as the monotonous chant and beat of drums can break even the strongest will. The unshakeable belief of the Word Bearers in the truth of their cause has seen them marching into certain death, yet unwilling to take a single step backwards. A battle ends either in victory or the utter destruction of the host.

...right, let me take this morale check at ld8, and... oh. welp, looks like this squad is running for it. Huh. There they go.

Yeah, I don't feel my legion is represented - no, I don't want a 3.5-esque ironclad dictated representation - I don't feel my legion is representable the way I want them with this codex. I can have cultists, sure (who don't really do anything) and a so-called dark apostle (who is useless) and if I want to proverbially urinate points into the wind I can invest in some possessed, but my basic warriors will scuttle off the board if something spooks them sufficiently, I don't have powerful and charismatic leaders to whip my host up into a fervour, and instead of the potent astartes heavy vehicles we know full well the XVII legion had in their arsenal I'm forced to haul around a cargo-cult imitation of a land raider made from cardboard boxes and scrap metal or go petition Perturabo for a daemon engine loan.

Of course, I'm one of the lucky ones, because GW realised the error of their ways with their mistreatment of the legion and provided an excellent counts-as resource in the form of Templars (Still not perfect, because I have to leave my daemons behind, but still...)

e; I'm also NOT saying that counts-as is the "right" way to run Word Bearers, I wouldn't tell anyone else what to do with their host. I'm just saying it suits me, because it cleaves much closer to the host I envision: the narrative I want forge, to use the Official Terminology.

[the jeske]

Of course, I'm one of the lucky ones, because GW realised the error of

their ways with their mistreatment of the legion and provided an

excellent counts-as resource in the form of Templars (Still not perfect, because I have to leave my daemons behind, but still...)

Intreducing this Winters table tops . WB counts as BT and their demon ally counts as SoB. The Celestine as the wenchy immortal champion of slanesh , SoB as horrors. Repentia as bloodletters . And the old favorite , the mucho mano Soul Grinder played by non other then The Exorcist .

[RapatoR]

 

 

 

Well this subforum had thread, which proved that legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did.

Where did it prove that?

 

Well, as soon as thread started people started suggesting more complex rules than in SM dex.

 

That doesn't meant anything, as many people suggested simple and elegant rules for the Legion. For example, my Night Lords rules were short and covered the basic elements of the Night Lords. (They cause Fear and can see in the dark) In fact I modeled my rules explicitly after the ones in the Marine Dex.

I get it, but many < majority. Also I think, that "legions are too different to be represented by using one or two rules, like SM codex did" is much reasonable answer than "GW hates chaos, LOL".

[Excessus]

I don't get it. Nowhere, in any chaos codex, have I found anything that says that the warband remnants of the legions doesn't use their legion traits and tactics anymore. Yes, the legions broke down into compaines and warbands, each led by their lords and champions...and they would suddenly stop using their preferred tactics? They would suddenly ignore their skills and experience? A loyalist retains the skills he learned just a few decades ago, but apparantely the warp makes you senile...

[Tenebris]

I think that the concept of legion tactics is a bit more deeper. Imagine that you as a marine have been schooled in many flavors of war yet your primarch and trough him his captains impressed on you and your battle brothers his favorite method to wage war. So it is understandable that you fight as you did 10000 years ago for it is the form of war which you practiced most, studied most and developed until you mastered it at the exclusion of all else. It is understandable that not all Black Legion warbands have the access to the Terminator yet their tactics still are that of a pack of wolves tearing down the enemy until the alpha male strangles the prey, aka the Spearhead. Same should be for the Death Guard who prize the power and flexibility of their infantry above else. 

 

So I too struggle to comprehend how a traitor legionnaire at the sudden forgot the core methods of war favored by his own legion...

[Kol Saresk]

I don't get it. Nowhere, in any chaos codex, have I found anything that says that the warband remnants of the legions doesn't use their legion traits and tactics anymore. Yes, the legions broke down into compaines and warbands, each led by their lords and champions...and they would suddenly stop using their preferred tactics? They would suddenly ignore their skills and experience? A loyalist retains the skills he learned just a few decades ago, but apparantely the warp makes you senile...

In a way, that's the problem. An Iron Warriors Assault Company would end up becoming something similar to a Raptor Cult. A Night Lords armored artillery brigade, would become a siege group. And so on, so forth. The Iron Warriors aren't going to walk up to the Night Lords and go "Umm yeah, our Legion is known for its big guns so we'll trade you our bikes and jetpacks that we spent the entire Crusade learning how to use for your artillery that you spent the whole Crusade using." No. They're going to use what they know.

 

Legion rules as presented in 3.5 are pretty much dead. They were just Rites of War basically. "You make this specific army and you get these benefits". Legion rules as presented in Forgeworld, are a possibility. "You get these rules which represent the ideals and personality of a specific Legion."

[Excessus]

Kol, a Night Lord artilleryman would still use his big guns to instill fear into the population in any way he could, would he not?

 

The Iron Warriors assault company would still be specialized in taking the breach, and finding weaknesses in fortifications to assault, and their officers would still be masters of siegecraft, no matter what their company is called...

 

The 3.5 legion rules are indeed dead, and thankfully so. They were a bit one dimensional. The vast selection of wargear on the other hand...was not...

 

I'm sure if they gave a damn about the legions they could come up with similar rules as they have with the loyalist ones, that didn't play to the 3.5 stereotypes...

[Kol Saresk]

Kol, a Night Lord artilleryman would still use his big guns to instill fear into the population in any way he could, would he not?

 

The Iron Warriors assault company would still be specialized in taking the breach, and finding weaknesses in fortifications to assault, and their officers would still be masters of siegecraft, no matter what their company is called...

Yes, that's why I said the "idea;personality" rules would be acceptable and are an idea. As long as each generation of Night Lords were similar to the last in that aspect, the warband would continue to be Night Lords.

 

The problem is that usually "I want Legion Rules" seems to be followed closely by at least a mention of 3.5.

[Sanctimonius]

I like the chosen idea. I've said it before but it annoys me that Space Wolves, a loyalist chapter, adheres less to the codex Astartes than the Chaos legions do. Having Chosen be the fluff workhorse of the codex would go a long way towards creating flavour in a Chaos army, although I'm guessing people would complain it forces them to take chosen if they want to create a fluffy list. Not a problem, imo, representing the difference between newer renegades and those who rapped on the doors of the Imperial Palace.

 

And quite frankly, our chosen should be better than veterans, or sternguard, albeit more expensive. They represent ten thousand years of warfare and chicanery, not a few centuries. They have stared into the Warp and emerged. They have fought beside gods, and lived. These are the chosen of the Chaos Lord, and it makes sense to me to have his reliable, loyal few keeping a watchful eye over his own warband, some scattered throughout the army to ensure loyalty, some as a retinue for him. 

[Dravenguild]

 

Kol, a Night Lord artilleryman would still use his big guns to instill fear into the population in any way he could, would he not?

 

The Iron Warriors assault company would still be specialized in taking the breach, and finding weaknesses in fortifications to assault, and their officers would still be masters of siegecraft, no matter what their company is called...

Yes, that's why I said the "idea;personality" rules would be acceptable and are an idea. As long as each generation of Night Lords were similar to the last in that aspect, the warband would continue to be Night Lords.

 

The problem is that usually "I want Legion Rules" seems to be followed closely by at least a mention of 3.5.

 

I would assume that is the case because it is the only case of legionary rules we had in full. So naturally we use it as a measure of how things should be.

[the jeske]

 

A Night Lords armored artillery brigade, would become a siege group.

 

How many siege companies and hvy siege gear did NL have post legion war , how much expiriance did they have with prolonged siege warfare ?

On the other hand the IW did have groups of jump pack troops , they mirrored the NL raptor tactics . But the NL didn't have squads of jump pack troops spread around different companies . They had a whole grand company of those .

We are talking about archetypes here . Do SW never ever  use jump packs ? of course not . Do RG dudes do only stealth attacks with little use of heavy armor ? of course not . But it is easier to show them like that. it is the same with NL or any other legion . In the w40k world it is easier to find a siege trained IW and a NL who does the whole fear or jump pack thing.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

A Night Lords armored artillery brigade, would become a siege group.

How many siege companies and hvy siege gear did NL have post legion war , how much expiriance did they have with prolonged siege warfare ?

 

 

Don't know. But I can't say how many they didn't have either. Using tanks to cause havoc and break enemy soldiers isn't exactly new. IIRC, it was an unattended but very welcome side effect of the first tanks built and it has only gotten more pronounced as time has gone on. And by the time we get to 30K where the average tank is the size of a small two-story house, well imagine the fear factor involved with that.

 

Also, this was from the White Dwarf leak of Massacre:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/Caradara_zps81ae7c73.jpg?t=1380496760

 

So the VIII did maintain at least one armoured regiment.

 

As for the Raptors, there was only one sub-Company, of the First Company, with so far the First being only company mentioned to have been organized as such. Going by the Tenth Company's description, the [is]standard[/i] Night Lords Company by those who were fresh from the Heresy, only numbered 100 Astartes. So that one Company of Raptors, was probably only 100 Raptors. Assuming the First Company numbers two hundred with one hundred being the Atramentar and 100 being the Raptors of Zso Sahaal. We didn't see the formation of Great Companies until Sevatar split the Legion into seven of them, three years into the Heresy(Prince of Crows in the Shadows of Treachery anthology). Even then, all that did was put one specific company in charge of the rest. They neither grew not shrunk in size. Coincidentally enough, Prince of Crows also mentions an allied Titan Legio that had been traveling with detachments of the Night Lords Legion.

 

For a Legion that the 3.5 does not show as having access to that much heavy support, they seem to have plenty of opportunities to have access to it. Even the scavengers of the Night Lords series had a Land Raider. Of course, in 30K the Legions were versatile. Couldn't always wait for the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists to travel from three sectors away in order to break open a fortress. So Legions like the World Eaters, Death Guard and apparently Night Lords maintained armored formations. How each formation was used differed from Legion to Legion. In the case of the World Eaters, Ferrus Manus described the armored brigade designed by Angron as Wrath Incarnate given metal form. In the case of the Death Guard, the artillery was stagnate, unmoving and unyielding, much like their infantry. Night Lords, well we'll have to wait until someone posts the fluff to find out since the words in the pic are gibberish Latin.

 

But that's the thing. GW did the exact same thing in 3.5 that we as an entire community are complaining about them doing now: They took the easy way out. They've been taking the easy way out. And where once we as a community applauded it because it let us be point and click for what army we wanted, we hate it now because it isn't the easy way that we want.

 

But, this isn't supposed to be about 3.5. This thread is supposed to be about finding out just how divided and chaotic the Chaos community is because apparently, rare and few are the players who are truly, Undivided.

[Hellios]

I don't get the engative reactions to the 3.5 codex. I can understand that you don't think its legion rules represent youyr legion properly, but the legion rules were optional... You could just use the generic list (which still had better balance, and more flexibility) if you wanted. The problem is... You can't give Chaos everything without putting some restrictions on it.

 

As far as I'm concerned the most valuable criticism of the 3.5 codex is that the rules were too complicated, and compared to most codices they were; that being said anyone who has completed their primary education shouldn't have had any problems understanding those rules (the exception being GW's amazing ability to use sloppy wording all the time).

 

People bring up 3.5 as a point of reference not because it is perfect, but because it represents the kind of flexibility and depth that they want in their codex. With the bigger hardback codices this should not be a problem. Do I think 4 fast attack slots is the best way to represent a Night Lords army? No! Do I think the ability to take 4 squads fast attack units in my army would give me more options? Yes! (Ahhh the Heldrake spam!) Would a better option be to allow a lord on a bike (or with a jumppack) to unlock those kinds of units as troops? Probably. Would this option to  the chaos dex allow us to run more powerful lists? Maybe not, but I'm sure we would see some people run biker and raptor lists.

 

With the Chaos codex as it is right now... I don't even think making Oblits an elites choice would make the codex broken (a common complaint about the Iron Warriors legion rules).

 

Even simple legion based upgrades using USR rules would give us more options.

 

Hydra Dominatus = Infiltrate

In Midnight Clad = Nightvision + Fear

Sons of Lorgar = Zealot + Crusader

Scions of Perturabo = Tank Hunters

Crazy Choppy People = Rampage

Dead and Loving it = Shrounded + IWND

Relax and enjoy some coke = I dunno :'(

The wizards of Oz = Brotherhood of Sorcerers. (Law of Tzeentch)

[Kol Saresk]

I know and fully understand. However, I prefer Forgeworld's way of doing things. If I so chose to do so, I could make a Night Lords army and have these rules:

 

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/nl4_zps2fb54fa5.png

 

And then choose the Rite of War: Armoured Spearhead. Which is:

 

Effects:

1.) All units eligible to take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport may instead choose a Land Raider Phobos or Land Raider Proteus if they number ten models or fewer as a Dedicated Transport.

2.) Tank shocks inflicted by tanks in the force impose an additional -1 Ld penalty.

 

Limitations:

1.) All units with the Infantry type in the army must either be purchased Dedicated Transports and start the game deployed inside them or begin play transported inside another vehicle in the army. This in essence means you cannot take more Infantry models in your army than you have capacity to carry.

 

Now, if I were to look at 3.5 and attempt to do this while making full advantage of all of the Night Lord rules, I couldn't. Why? Because the rules of 3.5 were just a small faction personality stamped onto a specific army type. Very inflexible. Granted, more flexible than the current Codex, but still inflexible in that each of the 3.5 Legion rules were meant to function as a specific army list. The optional option was the only way to use that specific list to its full potential.

 

It presents nine narrow views. Personally, I'll be happy with the Legion rules of Forgeworld which basically allow for anything and the rules are made to reflect the personality of the Legion, not the perceived archetype of preferred tactics.