Leadership pecking order in the Legions

[hisdudeness]

What is the picking order for Legion leadership, mostly captains?  While all captains would be "equal" rank, there is always a hierarchy between them. 

 

In 40k, the closer to the 1st company one is the more senior the officer.  But in 30k , there are 10+ chapters per legion each with 10+ company captains. Does this idea come from the Legions, so the closer the officer is to the 1st chapter-1st company the more senior they are?

[Chronotonic]

well some like the Death Guard the 1st and 7th captains are tied right under the primarch while everyone was below them

 

the ultramarines the chapter masters were equal then followed by the captains samething for the blood angels...

[GrandMagnus]

It depends a lot on the legion. Like the Emperors children it states that the first 20 (I think it was 20) chapter masters are known as Lord Commanders and the rest simply as masters, with the LC having a higher rank.

[Tyrannicide]

I would assume for most Legions it's not so much that the Company Captains would hold seniority over others (though that's certainly true), rather that the Companies closer to 1 had been founded at an earlier date. In my mind, the first handful of Companies and even the first few Chapters were the Legion's earliest warriors. Many had already died and been replaced as the Great Crusade carried on. These were the first Astartes to ever walk the stars before being reunited with their Primarch. Would lead me to believe that in a typical Legion structure, you were more qualified (maybe not always experienced), if you're at the head of one of the lower mumbered Companies. Companies would be commissioned as time went on. For example, the 225th Chapter of the Ultramarines is relatively young compared to the 25th. They would have far less history.

 

This is all conjecture but it makes sense to me. Some of the more esoteric Legions, like the Wolves or Alpha Legion are probably organized far differently.

 

Also, posting on an iPhone blows. :P

[Vazzy]

As I recall, the Ultra's had One "Senior" captain and one or two junior captains per company. I.E. Ventanus and Sydance. 

[Grim Dog Studios]

Also, I think it is worth mentioning not every Legion was made up of chapters, just hundreds of companies.

I think the hierarchy with legions is varied with every legion.

The Space Wolves for example are made up of only 13 companies (with thousands of men within them), so there is only 13 captains. I also believe that no captain is higher in "rank" than another, just that they make of the overall hierarchy of the chapter together with Russ as the top dog.

Whereas with the Luna Wolves, I presume the lower numbered company captains may have more "power" per say, but members of the mournival are the most respected as they have their primarch's ear, and they can be from any company within the legion.

[hisdudeness]

Wolves had GREAT companies...which was just another name for chapters. And their most certainly was a internal pecking order between officers of the same rank. Teir is in every known military, so it is not far fetch to believe it is the same in the Legions.

 

As per HH book 1, here is a unit down to squad with rank of commander:

 

Legion (Primarch)

Chapter (Lord Commander, Chapter Master, Khan, Warsmith, Magister)-about 1000 troops, 2 battalions total (but increased as Legions grew)

Battalion (Lieutenant Commander, Commander, First Captain, or Legate) - 500 troops each, 5 companies (but increased as Legions grew in size)

Company (Company Captain, Centurion, or Wolf Lord) - 100 troops

Platoon-ish (Lieutenant, Decurian, or Pack Leader) - 3 squads each (2 Tac and one support) with a Lieutenant

Squad (no officers) - 10 to 20 troops

 

 

I like this! Keep it up.

[Conn Eremon]

While there is a pecking order, I am sure, it does not exactly have to do with the numerical order. Like someone said, the Death Guard have three Great Companies that are ascendant over the other four. The First, Second and Seventh. Of course, their leaders are higher in command than the Captains and Chapter Masters below them, as the Death Guard Great Companies had whole Chapters within their organization. 

 

Hisdudeness' rank list shows what the Legions were like at the very beginning, with some of the alternative names and titles given in different Legions. But the Legions grew away from them in some very different ways. The Emperor's Children, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines have all been shown to operate on the Legion Commander - Chapter - Company - Squad order. The Space Wolves and White Scars had autonomous Battalions called Brotherhoods and Great Companies, with no Chapters above. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus had Companies, of varying size, and no Chapters or Battalions above them. And for them, order did not determine ascendancy. The First Captain was the highest of them, but the Mournival represented the ascendant Captains and their Companies, which was not simply Companies one through four.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well the White Scars have Khans who control a single brotherhood, which is basically a company. Then a group of Khans has a Noyan-Khan he has seniority over several Khans at once.

 

Above that I believe their might be a first captain who might be Qin Xa, he could be either a simple Captain of the Khan's bodyguard, or the White Scars first captain similar to Abaddon/Raldoron, however Yesugei the Chief Stormseer seems to be the Khan's biggest advisor and probably holds rank over everyone else.

[Conn Eremon]

Interesting, so there is a Chapter organization over the Battalion like organization in the White Scars, but not a Company.

[Emperor's Furor]

Interesting, so there is a Chapter organization over the Battalion like organization in the White Scars, but not a Company.

Well it's said Brotherhoods may never even come into contact with each other ever and during war the Khan has a very lose leash and goes where the action is the hardest and where he goes that's were the center is. They get general orders, the female adminstratum officer, Ilya, who is a key witness in Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm was parachuted in at Ullanor to help sort the organisation of the Scars out since they seemed so disorderly and unorganized when it came to meeting up with support fleets and receiving replacements. I'd hazard a guess to say in general because of the independence of the brotherhoods, what ever organisation there is, is very loose, which could point to the reason lodges took hold within the legion.

[jeremy1391]

It probably has a lot to do with legion structure.

 

The 13 great companies of the space wolves are probably equals.

 

Whereas the 1st chapter master probably has more pull than the 409th

[Emperor's Furor]

Interesting, so there is a Chapter organization over the Battalion like organization in the White Scars, but not a Company.

It's difficult to figure out, I'd say for the White Scars, there's a Khan who controls a Brotherhoods which are the equivalent of a company I think, then there's the Noyan-Khan who oversees a group of Brotherhoods, but these brotherhoods are not generally grouped together unless asked to do so, so it's not like a Chapter it's a lot looser than that. Then there's the Keshig, the Khan's personal bodyguard of Terminators lead by Qin Xa.

 

Seriously the Legion is very unorganized, it's amazing they fight so well, I mean in Brotherhood of the Storm, a Chorgoris Khan and a Terran Khan have to team up and they are so different, the Terran is more soldier like and has heavy support squads and the Chorgorian is an absolute speed freak and they competed with other Khans to get to where the Khan is fighting first.

[Marshal Rohr]

The FW material conflicts with the BL material. For example, Sigismund is 1st Captain and 2nd in command of the Imperial Fists, yet he would have a BC and CM over him, who would have higher rank.

 

 

Sense, it makes none. 

[Jareddm]

The FW organization table is most likely a pre-primarch organization of the legions.  It was how the legions would've been organized in the earliest years of the Great Crusade.  However, every Primarch made changes to their legion's organization.  Some far more than others.  The White Scars, Death Guard, Space Wolves, and several others would've been in that category.

[Conn Eremon]

M2C, not all Legions had Chapters. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus didn't. Some had Battalions instead of either. The Death Guard had an even higher layer over the Chapters. Most authors seem to go for the First Captain bit rather than First Chapter Master, of which we have only seen two of, Blood Angels and Ultramarines.

[Brother Heinrich]

The Night Lords just had a bunch of companies all under the relatively equal leadership of captains. The one exception to this was the "Kryoptera" a formation of seven chosen captains who acted as the Night Haunter's advisors and represented the Legion as a whole. At their head was Jago Sevatarion, Captain of the 1st Company Atramentar elite. In the old fluff Curze also had an equerry like Angron, named Sheng, though I'm not sure if this is just quietly being swept under the ret-con rug in lieu of Sevatar's massively popular character. 

[depthcharge12]

The Night Lords just had a bunch of companies all under the relatively equal leadership of captains. The one exception to this was the "Kryoptera" a formation of seven chosen captains who acted as the Night Haunter's advisors and represented the Legion as a whole. At their head was Jago Sevatarion, Captain of the 1st Company Atramentar elite. In the old fluff Curze also had an equerry like Angron, named Sheng, though I'm not sure if this is just quietly being swept under the ret-con rug in lieu of Sevatar's massively popular character. 

 

Sheng was briefly mentioned in savage weapons...ive never heard about him elsewhere

[Chronotonic]

back in the day...pfft stuff from our day is no longer valid...we all know this...gawd

[Demus Ragnok]

The FW material conflicts with the BL material. For example, Sigismund is 1st Captain and 2nd in command of the Imperial Fists, yet he would have a BC and CM over him, who would have higher rank.

 

 

Sense, it makes none.

I thought I heard somewhere that companies were the largest unit within the fists. With companies being like chapters in other legions. I think they used marshals and castelans as well as captains also.

[hisdudeness]

So much information coming out. I will add, the structure I posted was listed as the late crusade era/early heresy. I believe this structure is that of what we call codex chapters now. I also believe that battalions are not really used and are more of a administrative thing. Companies 1-5 are in 1st Batt and companies 6-10 are in 2nd. As more companies are created either another battalion is formed or companies are shifted to have equal companies in the two Battalions. Besides the HH book 1, I have not see battalions used in my readings has anyone else?

[jeremy1391]

I thought the iron warriors used battalions.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The FW material conflicts with the BL material. For example, Sigismund is 1st Captain and 2nd in command of the Imperial Fists, yet he would have a BC and CM over him, who would have higher rank.

 

 

Sense, it makes none.

I thought I heard somewhere that companies were the largest unit within the fists. With companies being like chapters in other legions. I think they used marshals and castelans as well as captains also.

That was the last I heard as well.

 

I thought the iron warriors used battalions.

They used Grand Companies. Although I admit that I don't recall if they divided further.(Storm of Iron; Dead Sky, Black Sun; Iron Within; Angel Exterminatus)

 

Night Lords use Companies of 100 with at least the First Company numbering much more and being broken down into sub-companies.(Soul Hunter; Prince of Crows)

 

The Death Guard are split into 7 companies which are then divided into even smaller grouping.(Flight of the Eisenstein; Betrayal)

 

The Thousand Sons had 9 Brotherhoods.(A Thousand Sons)

 

Space Wolves have 13 Great Companies.(Everything SW related)

 

World Eaters seem to be only broken down into Companies of 100, with the exception of the Triarii which number 500.(Betrayer)

 

Word Bearers are divided into Chapters of varying sizes. Commonly number one thousand, divided into companies of 100. Known Exceptions are Chapter of the Void which numbers 700, unknown if divided into smaller groups, and the Chapter of the Serrated Sun which numbered three Companies of 100 each.(The First heretic; Battle for the Abyss; Know No Fear)

 

Ultramarines follow standard Codex practice: Divided into Chapters of 1,000 which divide into Companies of 100.(Know No Fear)

 

Alpha Legion, ain't got a single clue.

 

Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are divided into Companies of various sizes from a couple dozen to a couple thousand.(Horus Rising; Betrayal)

 

Dark Angels are divided into Orders of 1,000 and then into Companies of 100. It might be Chapters and then Orders, I can't recall at the moment.(Savage Weapons; I think)

 

And that's everything off the top of my head.

[Kol Saresk]

As far as ranking goes, as pointed out it seems to go everywhere depending on the Legion.

 

For example, the XVI. Abaddon was first Captain. Then it descended numerically. But Captain Ekaddon of the Catulan Reavers, seemed to be of lower rank than Loken, despite holding the rank of Captain as well and being a part of the First Company.

 

Khârn is the 8th Captain. But he is treated as the First Captain. IIRC, the original 1st through 7th were killed by Angron, so I'm guessing that Khârn just got lucky and afterwards, he became the unofficial "First Captain".

 

Word Bearers are confused. CM are equal to each other. Captains are equal to each other. But Erebus and Kor Phaeron rank above almost everybody. Erebus is the Head Chaplain while Kor Phaeron is the First Captain. Meanwhile, the Gal Vorbak are above everybody else and Argel Tal is equal to Erebus and Kor Phaeron.

 

And there are various other examples.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Company being the largest unit in the Fists was my idea pre-Crimson Fist, where John French spells out that Captains command 100 dudes, and there is no greater organization besides the designation for 1st Captain, Fleet Master, etc who were both still just company captains in brevet command.