Leadership pecking order in the Legions

[DuskRaider]

M2C, not all Legions had Chapters. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus didn't. Some had Battalions instead of either. The Death Guard had an even higher layer over the Chapters. Most authors seem to go for the First Captain bit rather than First Chapter Master, of which we have only seen two of, Blood Angels and Ultramarines.

 

 

I don't think it was ever said that Death Guard actually have Chapters, just Great Companies. 

[Balthamal]

Regarding the Legion structure in Betrayal, it's stated that is how the Legions were on departing Terra for the Great Crusade during which some Legions discarded it utterly (Scars, Space Wolves) whilst some built upon or interpreted it to fit more closely with their own preferences (Iron Warriors, Ultramarines)

 

It seems a given that every Legion had it's own body to advise the Primarch in question, some a highly elite group chosen from the masses (The Mournival, The Kyroptera, The Trident) some council/roman senate style gatherings amongst the ranking commanders of a Legion (Conclave of blood, or whatever it's actually called among the Angels, the Ultramarine Chapter Masters) or merely all of the lords/captains/masters in ultimate command of the Legion's fighting strengths because there's so few of them (the Jarls of the Great Company's, the Thousand Sons' Masters of the fellowships/cults)

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

M2C, not all Legions had Chapters. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus didn't. Some had Battalions instead of either. The Death Guard had an even higher layer over the Chapters. Most authors seem to go for the First Captain bit rather than First Chapter Master, of which we have only seen two of, Blood Angels and Ultramarines.

 

I don't think it was ever said that Death Guard actually have Chapters, just Great Companies.

I remember the two of us arguing about this, me saying there isn't and you saying there is. I ended up proving myself wrong when I found a quote under a Dreadnought saying it belonged to the 21st Chapter or something, under the 1st Great Company. Therefore, the Great Companies had Chapters and lesser Companies within them.

 

And Hisdudeness, I think that Legion hierarchy chart is actually early Crusade, and pre-Primarch. It represents the Legions as they were initially organized, just setting out from Sol.

[DuskRaider]

BAH! I don't remember, man. I'll go with it though. Wish we had more information on them, however.

[Daemon2027]

May the structure also depend on operational situation. So the captain of the 35th company which specialises in siegecraft would take the lead over the 12th captain who specialises in recon, in a siege condition.

 

also it seems that if a Primarch takes a shine to a Captain (or i suppose any rank) then they may become more favoured over a longer serving captain 8n a lower numbered company.

[Demus Ragnok]

The Company being the largest unit in the Fists was my idea pre-Crimson Fist, where John French spells out that Captains command 100 dudes, and there is no greater organization besides the designation for 1st Captain, Fleet Master, etc who were both still just company captains in brevet command.

Ah ok.

[Conn Eremon]

Undoubtedly true. Khârn is one, as he wasn't the next in line to go below if I recall correctly. Hastur Sejanus is another, who was favored above even Abaddon by Horus. There are others I can't think of.

[Emperor's Furor]

You have the Blood Angels who have a first Captain but also the leader of the Sanguinary guard which kind of appear on an equal footing.

[hisdudeness]

Nope Cormac, the structure on page 31 says "notional organization late era great crusade"

 

Demon, you bring up another question. Were set companies specialized like they are now. As in, was the 8th company always an assault company? I'm asking these questions from the stand point of a 'codex' Legion, but I like the info on the other legions.

[Conn Eremon]

Huh, you're right that the actual pages say late era, but I do remember it saying it represents early Legion structure that tended to be changed extensively once their lord was found. Don't have the time to look for the quote, but I am not crazy!

 

Either way, that is the closest you will get to "Codex," since it looks like that is what Roboute based it off of. However, there no "Codex" Legions. They all diverged from it, some more than others.

[Coopervisor]

The Blood Angels had 300 companies, each led by a captain. Raldorian is 1st captain, but the extra rank of Chapter Master was created and bestowed on him. I think the other captains are roughly equal. The sanguinary guard are separate from the 300 companies, with Azkaellon being commander of the Sanguinary guard and roughly equal to Raldoron.

 

At least that's what I got from Fear to Tread. Once FW get round to doing the IX legion we should know more.

[Blindhamster]

Blood Angels only had one Chapter Master - that was Raldoran, and it's implied that it was a recent new concept amongst the legions around the time of Nikea.

 

Blood Angels also seem to have 300 companies from the way things are written in Fear to Tread (often referred to as the 300), I dont think it mentions how many marines are in each company, but it does mention captains from a few of them, and they all seem to treat eachother equally except for Raldoran whom is above them.

[facmanpob]

In Call of the Lion it is revealed that the Dark Angels use Chapters as an operational grouping of Companies. In the story, two Chapter Masters (Astelan and Belath) are talking and Astelan mentions something along the lines of "we both command over 1000 of the Emperors Astartes.....". It is also revealed that Astelan is accompanied on his command ship by three Company Masters and their companies, with other companies throughout the rest of his attack fleet.

 

So we can infer from this that the DA runs something along the lines of a Chapter containing 10 or so companies, each Company of around 100 Astartes. Sar Hadariel commands the 22nd Chapter in Descent of Angels iirc, meaning that there are at least 22,000 Dark Angels at the time of the Lion's first campaign after taking command of the Legion....

[Guest Musketeer12]

Can anyone give me a layout of the Death Guard organisation? I mean from Mortarion down to the sargeants and what they commanded and how many marines were in their charge? Thanks

 

Musket

[Brother Heinrich]

Can anyone give me a layout of the Death Guard organisation? I mean from Mortarion down to the sargeants and what they commanded and how many marines were in their charge? Thanks

 

Musket

 

- Mortarion

- Deathshroud

- 7 Captains

- ???

- Sergeants

- Legionaries 

 

It's really impossible to know the full command structure as nothing has been completely established for any of the Legions. Everything (As with all BL fluff) is in a constant state of flux and usually ends up contradicting itself at some point. No doubt when Massacre drops theres gonna be some stuff in there that runs against what AD-B has described for the Night Lords structure, and ditto for the other legions. That's the nature of this beast though. Unless GW or FW comes out with a definitive TO&E for each legion and says "this is exactly what they had and how they were organized" it's never going to be for sure what the composition of a Legion was.

[DuskRaider]

Well directly under Mortarion was Calas Typhon. Under him were the other 6 Captains, with the 2nd and the 7th Captains holding positions of honor in the Legion itself (although they are not technically above the 3rd - 6th Captains). They're kind of like the Mournival in a way, at least in reverence. From there I believe it would be Chapter Masters, then it just goes down from there.

 

Edit: Deathshroud don't technically hold a position other than the personal guard of Mortarion (and his Captains it seems from the FW book), so they are kind of outside of the Command Structure. They don't give orders since they've technically taken a vow of silence. 

[Kol Saresk]

Blood Angels only had one Chapter Master - that was Raldoran, and it's implied that it was a recent new concept amongst the legions around the time of Nikea.

 

Blood Angels also seem to have 300 companies from the way things are written in Fear to Tread (often referred to as the 300), I dont think it mentions how many marines are in each company, but it does mention captains from a few of them, and they all seem to treat eachother equally except for Raldoran whom is above them.

Not entirely true. There was that Chapter Master from Horus Rising who was killed on Murder. The best I can figure is that the Blood Angels used Chapter Master as a type of honorific to denote "the man in charge" for each Expedition Fleet. Of course, when the whole thing gets grouped into one big fleet, Raldoran takes charge of everything.

Well directly under Mortarion was Calas Typhon. Under him were the other 6 Captains, with the 2nd and the 7th Captains holding positions of honor in the Legion itself (although they are not technically above the 3rd - 6th Captains). They're kind of like the Mournival in a way, at least in reverence. From there I believe it would be Chapter Masters, then it just goes down from there.

 

Edit: Deathshroud don't technically hold a position other than the personal guard of Mortarion (and his Captains it seems from the FW book), so they are kind of outside of the Command Structure. They don't give orders since they've technically taken a vow of silence.

I knew there was something that bugged me about the Deathshroud in Vulkan Lives.

[DuskRaider]

They talk in that? Never read the book, don't plan to either.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, he said like one line, and he was pretty much dying anyways. It wasn't talking so much as gloating.

[DuskRaider]

Well I guess upon death, duty is relinquished, along with vows.

[hisdudeness]

I do understand that each Legion changed things up once the Primarch's took over.  They had over 200 years of tweaking during the Crusades to make adjustments.  I was just wonder what the status que was and how that affected the pecking order.  I like where this going. 

 

Alt names for unit size:

 

Chapter: Great companies, Harrows, Millennials

Battalion: Cohorts, Regiments, Battle Groups

Company: Maniples, Bands, Brotherhoods

 

 

 

"Need more input" ~Johnny Five

[DuskRaider]

I can see structure also depending on what that particular Legion relies on, tact or strength wise.

[Ouroboros13]

 

In Call of the Lion it is revealed that the Dark Angels use Chapters as an operational grouping of Companies. In the story, two Chapter Masters (Astelan and Belath) are talking and Astelan mentions something along the lines of "we both command over 1000 of the Emperors Astartes.....". It is also revealed that Astelan is accompanied on his command ship by three Company Masters and their companies, with other companies throughout the rest of his attack fleet.

 

So we can infer from this that the DA runs something along the lines of a Chapter containing 10 or so companies, each Company of around 100 Astartes. Sar Hadariel commands the 22nd Chapter inDescent of Angels iirc, meaning that there are at least 22,000 Dark Angels at the time of the Lion's first campaign after taking command of the Legion.... 

 

Dark Angels are an interesting case; in Descent of Angels, Call of the Lion and Fallen Angels they seem to have the standard Chapter/Battalion/Company structure, with the commanding officers being Chapter Masters and Company Master respectively. So far, so standard.

 

However, in Savage Weapons and The Lion this seems to have been either replaced or supplemented with a new organizational unit; Orders. Each Order seems to be about 5 thousand marines; at one point the Lion orders the Fourth, Sixth, Ninth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Thirtieth Order to embark on a mission and that is noted as more than 30 thousand marines. Orders seem to be led by Captains (with Paladins as, effectively, Order Champions).

 

It's possible that the Orders are just something the Lion added as an additional layer of command as the number of Chapters under his command increased or it's possible he reorganized his Legion entirely at some point. Either way, it's worth noting that the Dark Angel "Captain of the 14th Order" commands something like 50 times as many marines as a Captain in a Legion following the original/default organization.

[facmanpob]

 

 

 

In Call of the Lion it is revealed that the Dark Angels use Chapters as an operational grouping of Companies. In the story, two Chapter Masters (Astelan and Belath) are talking and Astelan mentions something along the lines of "we both command over 1000 of the Emperors Astartes.....". It is also revealed that Astelan is accompanied on his command ship by three Company Masters and their companies, with other companies throughout the rest of his attack fleet.

 

So we can infer from this that the DA runs something along the lines of a Chapter containing 10 or so companies, each Company of around 100 Astartes. Sar Hadariel commands the 22nd Chapter inDescent of Angels iirc, meaning that there are at least 22,000 Dark Angels at the time of the Lion's first campaign after taking command of the Legion....

Dark Angels are an interesting case; in Descent of Angels, Call of the Lion and Fallen Angels they seem to have the standard Chapter/Battalion/Company structure, with the commanding officers being Chapter Masters and Company Master respectively. So far, so standard.

 

However, in Savage Weapons and The Lion this seems to have been either replaced or supplemented with a new organizational unit; Orders. Each Order seems to be about 5 thousand marines; at one point the Lion orders the Fourth, Sixth, Ninth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Thirtieth Order to embark on a mission and that is noted as more than 30 thousand marines. Orders seem to be led by Captains (with Paladins as, effectively, Order Champions).

 

It's possible that the Orders are just something the Lion added as an additional layer of command as the number of Chapters under his command increased or it's possible he reorganized his Legion entirely at some point. Either way, it's worth noting that the Dark Angel "Captain of the 14th Order" commands something like 50 times as many marines as a Captain in a Legion following the original/default organization.

It's interesting that Belath in Call of the Lion describes himself as being a member of the Order of the Raven's Wing, in addition to being a Chapter Master, so I think your assessment that the Orders were added post-Caliban is correct. Whether they are an additional command layer or part of a completely reorganised TO&E is something I guess we'll have to wait for the FW heresy books to reveal.

[Kol Saresk]

Possibility:

 

The Chapters were being reorganized into Orders and it was just that Call of the Lion and Descent of Angels happened so close that we either didn't see it, or we saw the transferring state of it. That way, when we reach Savage Weapons, the Chapters are now Orders and the reason we don't see it in Fallen Angels is because the Lutherans either weren't reorganized or didn't bother doing it since they were pretty much stuck on Caliban anyways.

 

Or it could just be the fact that like five different authors have written the Dark Angels so the terminology keeps changing as a result.