Leadership pecking order in the Legions

[facmanpob]

Possibility:

 

The Chapters were being reorganized into Orders and it was just that Call of the Lion and Descent of Angels happened so close that we either didn't see it, or we saw the transferring state of it. That way, when we reach Savage Weapons, the Chapters are now Orders and the reason we don't see it in Fallen Angels is because the Lutherans either weren't reorganized or didn't bother doing it since they were pretty much stuck on Caliban anyways.

 

Or it could just be the fact that like five different authors have written the Dark Angels so the terminology keeps changing as a result.

I'd love it to be the former, but I suspect it is the latter! ;)

[lokkorex]

regarding the Iron Warriors:

 

in the Index Astartes, it is said that the fourth was organised into 12 grand companies, and each grand company was the equal of a chapter/Great Company/whatever from the other legions, numbering about a thousand marines.

 

however, this was written before GW decided to massively expand the legions numbers.

 

in angel exterminatus it is stated that the fourth had many more grand companies, which were grouped together into twelve Grand Battalions, each led by a senior warsmith i presume?

 

of course, this may all be bogus and my brain has been infiltrated by tzeentch horros, in which case: Oh Commissar!

[Ouroboros13]

Having just read Unremembered Empire, it seems that by the Heresy, the Dark Angels had a totally different structure from the Chapter/Battalion/Company/Squad structure. An Ultramarine explicitly says that he can't be bothered working out how their command structure works, but we know that cohorts and wings feature in their structure (and there is at least a Stormwing and a Dreadwing as well as a Deathwing and presumably a Ravenwing).

 

So my best guess is the Lion completely reorganized his Legion at some point, likely to mirror the structure of Caliban's knightly orders. 

 

Further on-topic info; they seem to have a rank called "voted lieutenant". Whether it is a rank senior to a Captain of an Order, subordinate to Captain of an Order or a parallel structure remains to be seen.

[Kol Saresk]

Not entirely correct.

 

 

Unremembered Empire specifically mentions the presence of company and unit formations. It also mentions that due to the First's status as operating as the only Legion for quite some time, the Legion was divided into six "wings" with each wing providing a different specialization. And when that was combined with the knightly orders and their various hierarchies, dozens of new hierarchies relating to those were super-imposed on top of the old. For all military matters, the Legion is ordered into Chapter/Order -> Company -> Squad. When it comes to other things however, like who has seniority in different situations, it then changes based on one's standing within a specific order, or even that order's standing in relation to the rest. Essentially, we're seeing why it was so easy for the Dark Angels to compartmentalize the whole Lutherite Fall and adapt so quickly and why things like the First Captain militarily outranks the Chaplain but the Chaplain outranks the First Captain politically, in the Hunt as well, and several other things like how the Deathwing and Ravenwing were formed.

 

[hisdudeness]

And that is why I started this thread. Another thing that bothers me is that rarely is a chapter mentioned. Example, Khârn...which chapter was he the 8th company captain of?

[depthcharge12]

And that is why I started this thread. Another thing that bothers me is that rarely is a chapter mentioned. Example, Khârn...which chapter was he the 8th company captain of?

 

Quite confused as well, and betrayal said the WEs had eschelons instead of chapters.

 

 

And are all companys called assault companies? Which companies are?

 

traditionally in 40k, marines all have an 8th company which is all assault marines

[Demus Ragnok]

And that is why I started this thread. Another thing that bothers me is that rarely is a chapter mentioned. Example, Khârn...which chapter was he the 8th company captain of?

Well unless Angron changed the legion structure the 8th company would be part of the 1st chapter second battalion. That is, if the War Hounds were using the basic legion organization when Angron was found.

[Ouroboros13]

Not entirely correct.

 

 

Unremembered Empire specifically mentions the presence of company and unit formations. It also mentions that due to the First's status as operating as the only Legion for quite some time, the Legion was divided into six "wings" with each wing providing a different specialization. And when that was combined with the knightly orders and their various hierarchies, dozens of new hierarchies relating to those were super-imposed on top of the old. For all military matters, the Legion is ordered into Chapter/Order -> Company -> Squad. When it comes to other things however, like who has seniority in different situations, it then changes based on one's standing within a specific order, or even that order's standing in relation to the rest. Essentially, we're seeing why it was so easy for the Dark Angels to compartmentalize the whole Lutherite Fall and adapt so quickly and why things like the First Captain militarily outranks the Chaplain but the Chaplain outranks the First Captain politically, in the Hunt as well, and several other things like how the Deathwing and Ravenwing were formed.

 

 

Not entirely correct.

 

 

Unremembered Empire specifically mentions the presence of company and unit formations. It also mentions that due to the First's status as operating as the only Legion for quite some time, the Legion was divided into six "wings" with each wing providing a different specialization. And when that was combined with the knightly orders and their various hierarchies, dozens of new hierarchies relating to those were super-imposed on top of the old. For all military matters, the Legion is ordered into Chapter/Order -> Company -> Squad. When it comes to other things however, like who has seniority in different situations, it then changes based on one's standing within a specific order, or even that order's standing in relation to the rest. Essentially, we're seeing why it was so easy for the Dark Angels to compartmentalize the whole Lutherite Fall and adapt so quickly and why things like the First Captain militarily outranks the Chaplain but the Chaplain outranks the First Captain politically, in the Hunt as well, and several other things like how the Deathwing and Ravenwing were formed.

 

 

After the ill-timed drop-pod assault, Caspean describes the Dark Angels as "A strength in excess of five companies... as our Legion would consider it. I have little patience with their "wings" and cohort divisions." This suggest to me that the Dark Angels do not, at this point, use companies as an organizational unit.

 

Now it's perfectly possible Caspean is comparing apples to oranges; he admits he doesn't understand the Dark Angel internal structure. But they definately have cohorts, Orders and wings (not necessarily in that order) at this point and I think we have pretty good evidence they don't have companies, since Caspean acknowledges that describing the Dark Angel force as five companies strong is not using the Dark Angel's own terminology.

 

 

My best guess (which is based on incomplete information at this point) is that the Dark Angels are organized into (First, Second, Third etc.) Orders/Cohorts/Squads (possibly with an intermediate step between cohort and squad) and that, in parallel, some are designated as Ravenwing, Deathwing, Stormwing, Dreadwing, etc. Captains seem to be the heads of Orders, while voted lieutenants seem to be heads of wings. I wonder, given the title, if voted lieutenants are elected by the wings, rather than chosen by the Lion.

 

But I really don't think we have enough data to be certain of anything at this point.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah, I haven't quite made it that far. Apologies.

And that is why I started this thread. Another thing that bothers me is that rarely is a chapter mentioned. Example, Khârn...which chapter was he the 8th company captain of?

Well, that's assuming there are Chapters in the World Eaters. The only person we've seen with a rank above captain was the old Legion Master and his rank is no longer valid. It looks like the World Eaters were nothing more than a series of companies that were 100 strong, with the exception of specialist formations like the Trairii. Although it seems that even as the 8th Captain, Khârn has a position similar to First Captains in Legions like the Sons of Horus. We see something similar in the Night Lords. In Soul Hunter, we find out that a Legion Company of Night Lords is only 100 strong. But then when we get to Prince of Crows, we find out that the First Company is quite different in its structure as Sevatar specifically makes mention of "sub-captains and their companies". So the First Company, also has an organization unique to itself.

 

So the "pecking" order, is entirely unique to each Legion.

[Emperor's Furor]

When Vulkan took over the Legion he re-organised it into seven "realms", named after the seven sanctuary cities. Each of them were under the command of a Lord Protector under which a number of line companies of around 120 were formed. Apart from the specialist, they followed a simplified ranking system from captain to lieutentant to master sergeant, to sergeant, to legionary. With seniority being length of service, out of combat though they were very informal. Each of the realms had a core of it's own firedrakes

[Demus Ragnok]

 

Ah, I haven't quite made it that far. Apologies.

And that is why I started this thread. Another thing that bothers me is that rarely is a chapter mentioned. Example, Khârn...which chapter was he the 8th company captain of?

Well, that's assuming there are Chapters in the World Eaters. The only person we've seen with a rank above captain was the old Legion Master and his rank is no longer valid. It looks like the World Eaters were nothing more than a series of companies that were 100 strong, with the exception of specialist formations like the Trairii. Although it seems that even as the 8th Captain, Khârn has a position similar to First Captains in Legions like the Sons of Horus. We see something similar in the Night Lords. In Soul Hunter, we find out that a Legion Company of Night Lords is only 100 strong. But then when we get to Prince of Crows, we find out that the First Company is quite different in its structure as Sevatar specifically makes mention of "sub-captains and their companies". So the First Company, also has an organization unique to itself.

 

So the "pecking" order, is entirely unique to each Legion.

The story After D'shea explains how Khârn came to be the highest ranked captain in the World Eaters.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but what happened to the First through Seventh Companies? What about the captain of the First Company? It's still a very weird position. And why not make Khârn the First Captain instead of him retaining the rank of only the Eighth Captain? And if the World Eaters truly do have Echelons, are there Echelon Masters, or are the highest ranking Captains in each echelon simply the overall commander?

 

Believe me, I remember exactly why Khârn is in charge. However his role is still..... weird.

[Emperor's Furor]

Nothing the World Eaters do is sensible, they don't care as along as they can kill :P

[Vardus]

Yeah, but what happened to the First through Seventh Companies? What about the captain of the First Company? It's still a very weird position. And why not make Khârn the First Captain instead of him retaining the rank of only the Eighth Captain? And if the World Eaters truly do have Echelons, are there Echelon Masters, or are the highest ranking Captains in each echelon simply the overall commander?

 

Believe me, I remember exactly why Khârn is in charge. However his role is still..... weird.

 

It's probably a remnant of the old sacred number for the Chaos Gods. Something that they didn't want to retcon. 

[hisdudeness]

I believe Khârn (and most likely most of the named characters) are odd examples that make them standout. The thing is that each chapter has about 10ish companies. And I am assuming that the numbers start over, but I can easily see them not. Khârn has the extra pull because he has the direct ear of Agron and I don't think what companies one leads really matters at that point.

 

[Demus Ragnok]

I believe Khârn (and most likely most of the named characters) are odd examples that make them standout. The thing is that each chapter has about 10ish companies. And I am assuming that the numbers start over, but I can easily see them not. Khârn has the extra pull because he has the direct ear of Agron and I don't think what companies one leads really matters at that point.

My understanding has been that the legion basic organization would be as follows

 

1st thru 10th chapters 2 battalions per chapter

1st thru 20th battalions 5 companies per battalion

1st thru 100th companies 100 marines per company

 

So no the company numbers don't start over. That's why the 1st company is the elite of the legion, cause there is only one 1st.

 

So the 8th company would be 2nd battalion 1st chapter.

The 53rd company would be 11th battalion  6th chapter.

 

Or some such like that.

[hisdudeness]

I'm not sure about that. Looking at book one, the Org Chart looks like they do start over.

[Demus Ragnok]

I'm not sure about that. Looking at book one, the Org Chart looks like they do start over.

Well that would make it hard to have companies numbered higher than 10th wouldn't it?

Not to mention it makes identifying units less complex.

Praetor: "Oy, marine what's your outfit?"

Marine: " Sir, 5th company 1st battalion 9th chapter, sir."

OR

Praetor:"Marine, what's your unit?"

Marine: "Sir, Ninety fifth company sir."

I know, I know its warhammer it don't gotta make since, blah, blah.

[Conn Eremon]

Demus has the right of it. The numbers don't reset.

[hisdudeness]

Making since really doesn't matter. The US military does both. So to me " Sir, 5th company 1st battalion 9th chapter, sir.". Doesn't sound wrong. I would like for them to not reset, but I'm not seeing it in the book. The way it's laid out each batt starts at 1st company and goes until the Legion wants to stop.

[Demus Ragnok]

Well until there is some conclusive statement by FW or BL I will hold to my belief that there is only ever one 1st company in a legion at a time. Mainly because of the numerations given for companies in the HH novels such as the Imperial Fists 405th.

 

Not to mention the weird organization used be the Word bearers.

[Kol Saresk]

Or the 114th Company in the Night Lords.

[Ouroboros13]

I'm working on the assumption that the Ultramarines continue to use the organizational structure of the pre-Primarch Legions and they don't see to re-set company number; they have a 34th and a 199th company (just from a quick look at the Unremembered Empire cast list).

[Ordo Machinum]

The standard disposition in Betrayal is: 10 chapters = 20 battalions = 100 companies = 10,000 legionnaires. The variables begin as the legions grew in size. Some exceeded the 5 companies per battalion rule, sometimes reaching 10 per battalion.

 

I agree with the battalion and company number continuing sequentially throughout the legion. The numbers are maddening enough to imagine, not to mention the seeming thousands that are constantly getting swallowed by warp storms and enemy engagements.

 

Even company size is flexible. In the story The Lion, the DA group 6 companies (orders) together for a mission and someone states this would be 30,000 marines. At first reading I was imagining the term "Orders" was referring to chapters, not companies. Then other DA stories seemed to use "orders" for companies. In Unremembered Empire, there's a reference to a DA company being 5,000-strong, which would fit with the earlier Lion story of 6 companies equaling 30,000-strong.

 

Another interesting note, Sevatar of the Night Lords mentions their flagship can hold 9 companies. It's a Gloriana Class Battleship just like the Invincible Reason, the Dark Angel flagship. The DA stories often mention the 9th "order" being aboard.

 

Is a Gloriana's capacity 900-marines (nine 100-strong companies)? Or 5000-marines (one 5000-strong company)? Yikes!  

[Brother Heinrich]

Nothing the World Eaters do is sensible, they don't care as along as they can kill

More like nothing Black Library and GW do is sensible. Every book, bit of fluff, and ruleset we get just adds more confusion to an already towering pile of poor information regarding legion structure. After looking through all the different variations and descriptions of legion size and structure i believe the overall structure looks something like this:

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mommamoon/mommamoon1112/mommamoon111200003/11782973-pile-of-tangled-ethernet-wires.jpg